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Fauci Says, Positivity Rates a Predictor of Trouble Ahead; Top GOP Senator Pushes Back on Trump's Unsubstantiated Mail-In Voting Claims; Nearly 7 Million U.S. Students Starting School Year Online. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired August 06, 2020 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN NEWSROOM: Dr. Anthony Fauci, despite the president continually claiming this pandemic will simply, eventually go away.

[10:00:05]

Dr. Fauci says this morning, quote, there is no doubt that we are going to see future outbreaks. In fact, he says, the world would likely never eradicate coronavirus.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: Yes, that's true with other coronaviruses. It's the facts.

He is also backing up White House Task Force Coordinator Dr. Deborah Birx after she warned that positivity rates, those are the positive test results, people who test positive for this infection compared to overall tests given in any area, are rising in nine U.S. cities and in California's Central Valley.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: It's a clear indication that you are getting an uptick in cases which inevitably, as we've seen in the southern states, leads to surges and then you get hospitalizations and then you get death.

So she was warning the states and the cities to be careful because this is a predictor of trouble ahead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Joining us now is CNN Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

So, Sanjay, what does it mean that positivity rates, again, the percentage of people who test positive compared with the total number of tests given, significance of that have even as the total number of new infections is flattening out or plateauing in some states?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right, right. So when you have high positivity rates, that basically gives you an idea that you're not catching all the cases out there. You're trying to figure out if you're -- somebody put it to me like this.

Let's say you're fishing with a net, and every time you put the net down, you catch ten fish, which would be a lot of fish each time. That would give you some indication that there's probably a lot more fish out there that you're probably missing. So high positivity rates means there's a lot of more fish in the ocean that you're not catching.

If you get positivity rates down low, that means you're starting to do enough tests where you are catching most of the positive, most of the actually infected people out there.

Now, you know, what the exact number is in terms of what is the ideal positivity rate, different organizations say different things, but roughly around 5 percent, they say. If you're 5 percent out of all -- five out of 100 tests come back positive, that gives you some idea that you're actually doing enough testing.

We haven't gotten to that point, I can tell you, where I am here in Georgia, and that's a big point of consideration now especially over the next few weeks as we're thinking about opening schools.

HARLOW: Many of these things seem simple, but they are all that we can do, Sanjay, to prevent further spread of COVID-19 until there is an effective vaccine. If you could just lay out for people, you know, your sort of top five things.

GUPTA: Yes, the top five things on the screen here. But I'll tell you, as you look at these things, keep in mind that they do seem simple, but they have worked in places around the world during this pandemic. And these things that are on the screen right now have helped eradicate diseases off the face of the earth as well.

So wearing a mask consistently, maintaining social distance, avoiding close indoor gatherings, such as bars, and the reason season that you're in a place for a long period of time, and you're close to people and you're typically not wearing a mask in those situations, stay away from large crowds and wash your hands often.

If you -- if we as a country did these things for several weeks, three or four weeks, we'd be looking at the back side of this curve. Regardless of where you live, regardless of what the policies are in your area, if we honestly, diligently did this in a widespread way, which isn't asking a lot, it's not a shutdown, it's just asking to you do these basic things for three to four weeks, we'd be looking at the back side of this curve.

HARLOW: Wow.

SCIUTTO: Sanjay, thanks for that comparison to fishing in terms of positivity rates because explaining it in the clearest terms possible, right? As the rate rises that means, frankly, that you're not catching all the infections out there.

GUPTA: That's right.

SCIUTTO: So we find ourselves, do we not, in this country where we've been since the beginning, right? We're not testing enough still. It's not happening. Why? Why this many months in?

GUPTA: Well, you know, the first part, Jim, you're absolutely right, we're not testing enough. I think it's been a constant source of frustration, I can tell you, for Dr. Fauci, I spoke to him yesterday, as well as for many other public health experts that I've been talking to over the last several months.

Here is the common sort of discussion is that, look, we're testing far more than other countries in terms of absolute numbers. That may be true. But the thing is that we need to be doing that because we have a much more widespread infection in this country.

And, again, looking at the positivity rates, there's a lot fish out there that were simply missing. If you look at the numbers on the right side of the screen, some estimates say that we may be five to ten times higher in terms of actual infections than what we've actually confirmed.

The second part of the question, why is that? I don't know, Jim. It's a really fair question.

[10:05:00]

We clearly have minimized this problem from the start. We had a flawed test in the beginning. We had no significant breakthroughs in testing. The president has talked about wanting to reduce the number of tests.

I'll tell you this, and I keep a close eye on this. There are several different companies out there that are starting to innovate around testing. There's antigen testing, which I think is going to become more widely available, maybe even in places like schools.

And I think some of those tests may be not as accurate but if they are more available, let's say you can start testing people on a very regular basis, even if you have a higher false/negative rate, it will get obviated as we do more and more testing.

It won't be perfect but we will catch people, people who don't know they are harboring the virus. They're going to say, wait, I have the virus? I feel fine. That's sort of the point. That's why you test them, they then get isolated so they can stop spreading.

HARLOW: Sanjay, by the way, great interview with Dr. Fauci yesterday.

GUPTA: Thank you.

HARLOW: You covered so much. Children, we all want to know if our children are safe to go to school or not, every single one of us on this screen and many people watching. So I bring this up because yesterday, the president said falsely that children are essentially immune from COVID. That's not true.

A few weeks ago, you know, the woman in charge of education in this country, Betsy DeVos, said, quote, study showed kids are actually stoppers of the disease. They don't get it and they transmit it. But then, the White House chief of staff, Mark Meadows, said this yesterday to Wolf. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK MEADOWS, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: And I think we can all transmit -- anybody who sent their kids to school know that a lot of times the kids come home and you catch whatever you got from your kids who were transferring it back and forth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Amen. I'm glad he said it. I just wish everyone were on the same page. What do confused parents need to know this morning?

GUPTA: Well, there's been some really interesting studies. Let me just explain this simply. In South Korea, they did this large contact tracing study and they contact traced kids, looked at kids, who are all your contacts, let's sit there and talk to them. And what they found when they put all that data together was that kids ten and older, they were transmitting this virus just as much as adults were.

Kids younger than that, I think, the jury is out, in part, because they didn't have as many contacts. Think about your own kids if they are under the age of ten. Since the middle of March, they have probably not been out much. Maybe they've had play dates here and there but you could probably count their contacts, hopefully, you can count their contacts just 10 or 20, maybe, total over the last several months. So they -- it's harder to know how much they transmit.

I can tell you, and these have been some staggering stories that have come out of Georgia recently. There was a summer camp, a camp that my kids would have attended any other summer, a YMCA camp, where out of 600 kids, 260 of them became infected within a few days after coming in contact with a counselor. So not only were they spreading, they were spreading amongst themselves and then likely took it back to their communities.

So it's a problem and schools are already starting to reopen and seeing these sudden super spreader events.

HARLOW: Yes, wow. Sanjay, thank you. I mean, just from personal experience, I can imagine for you watching, your kids could have been there and so many parents' kids were.

GUPTA: It's all we talk about right now.

HARLOW: For sure, thank you, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, we appreciate you.

A new global town hall tonight, the mask debate and the push to reopen schools. You'll get a lot more useful information from Sanjay and Anderson Cooper, Coronavirus, Facts and Fears. It is live tonight at 8:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

SCIUTTO: Well, Georgia has become the fifth state to pass more than 200,000 coronavirus infections, and the list of schools dealing with the virus is growing now. Dianne Gallagher, schools have begun to reopen, and they are seeing infections. They are seeing some spread. DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Jim. You know, yesterday, we talked about that second grader in Cherokee County who had tested positive for COVID-19 on the first day of school, on Monday. Well, in Cherokee County, we now have three others who have COVID-19, according to the district. We're talking four different schools now, three elementary schools and a middle school, a kindergartner, a kindergarten teacher, a first grader, a second grader and an eighth grader at this point.

According to the district, each of those individuals, they felt fine at school on Monday and then started to feel some symptoms when they went home on Monday. They did not return in each case and then received their positive tests back except the teacher, who is still waiting on a test here in Georgia, which is a common theme, but a member of their household has tested positive. So the doctors told them to go ahead and presume positive due to those symptoms.

Now, here is the thing. The district is trying to put this plan that they have in action. They have done contact tracing. There are now more than 60 students who are having to quarantine at home. They are doing deep cleaning, but, again, this is as real-time experiment with real consequences that we're watching happen right now, Jim, Poppy.

[10:10:01]

HARLOW: It is, and Dr. Fauci referred to it that way, you know. This is going to be an experiment and it's the sad reality of what we're all sort of up against right now. Thanks, Dianne.

In Los Angeles, health officials there say nearly 60 percent of new coronavirus cases are among adults, young adults, ages 18-49. Stephanie Elam joins us again from L.A.

So, I mean, that's scary, and the city obviously wants to slow the spread because some young folks think they are -- you know, they are invincible to this.

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, the feeling of being young and being invincible, but guess what, they are not. And they are the ones spreading the virus here. We were once, right? You believed it at some point. And that's exactly what's happening here.

I know lockdown is hard for people, the idea of staying apart from people is hard, but that is exactly what they are saying is happening here in Los Angeles County. They are saying, of the new cases that they reported yesterday, that 76 percent of those were in people under 50. 54 percent of them were in people under the age of 30. So, obviously, they are getting it.

And then we've seen these large parties that have happened here in Los Angeles County over the last week or so. And with that in mind, Mayor Eric Garcetti is saying that they are going to go ahead and allow the water -- the Department of Energy and Water here in the city to go ahead and shut off services to people, cut off the utilities if they continue to have these large gatherings indoor, businesses and at personal homes as well to try to stop that spread because, obviously, the young people are the ones who are usually getting together in these settings.

And then you were talking earlier with Sanjay about those positivity rates in the Central Valley of California. Well, take a look at California as a whole. The positivity rate is now under 7 percent. But in the Central Valley and those counties there, it's at about 18 percent, and that's exactly why we've seen Governor Gavin Newsom saying that they're going to send in strike teams to try to get the message out and bring those numbers out and that hot spot that Dr. Deborah Birx did point out. Poppy and Jim?

SCIUTTO: Hot spots, got to keep an eye on them. Stephanie Elam, thanks very much.

President Trump is criticizing states run by Democrats over mail-in voting while saying states led by GOP governors, they can handle it just fine. Any substance behind that? I'm going to speak with the secretary of state one state who has been conducting entire elections for years using mail-in ballots, no fraud and a lot of security.

HARLOW: That's right. Also, a call for change from a group of chief diversity officers at some of the world's biggest companies, what they want from corporate leaders including their own when it comes to racism in corporate America.

Also, there are more than 13,000 school districts across the United States, and they all have different ideas when it comes to what reopening safely actually means. We're going to break this down for you, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:15:00]

SCIUTTO: We're just 89 days away from the election. President Trump yet again criticizing mail-in voting or at least in some states pushing unsubstantiated claims that it leads to mass fraud. It does not, that's false, no evidence of that. At the same time, he's saying it's okay in GOP-run states. And, frankly, there are Republican lawmakers who disagree with the president on this and have said so publicly.

Colorado is one of at least three states that do hold all mail ballot elections. They have instituted a lot of safeguards, have got pretty good experience with it.

Joining me now to discuss, Colorado Secretary of State Jena Griswold. thanks for joining us this morning.

Colorado has done all the right things in terms of securing the vote, I mean, record every vote on a paper ballot, nearly every county equipped with up-to-date voting machines, rigorous post-election audits. I just wonder you are doing all the stuff that everyone recommended, particularly post-2016. How hard was it to do? Was it expensive?

JENA GRISWOLD (D), COLORADO SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, election security does require some money, but more than anything, it requires leadership. And very unfortunately, the president and Senator McConnell have refused to really invest in our election infrastructure.

So states need to step in, and I am so happy where Colorado is. The Colorado election model is pretty straightforward. You register the votes, you get sent a ballot and then return it to a drop box, by mail or even voting in person.

And we're able to allow a high degree of accessibility and also be considered one of the securest states in the nation.

SCIUTTO: The president, as you know, continues to wage really a campaign against mail-in voting, although we should note except in Republican-led states which, of course, should raise enormous questions about the president's motivation here. But tell me about Colorado's experience with mail-in voting. Have you seen evidence of mass fraud that the president claims?

GRISWOLD: We have not seen evidence of mass fraud. And I will say, Jim, that from the president's lips to God's ear, every governor who is a Republican should be implementing vote by mail. And, by the way, the Democrats should also because it's the best way to vote hands down. It increased turnout rates in Colorado by 9 percent, including by 13 percent among black voters, 10 percent among Latino voters and 16 percent among younger voters. And it's obviously the best way to vote during a pandemic.

When it comes to the lies being spread about vote by mail, we have safeguards in place to make sure that double voting isn't happening and that we catch it if it is.

[10:20:01]

So we have signature verification, a statewide poll book that is extremely up-to-date, rules about ballot collection and, overall, Colorado is doing it right and we want the rest of the nation to join us.

SCIUTTO: Yes. You mentioned three groups there that mail-in voting increases turnout. Black Americans, Hispanic-Americans and young people, three group that trend against Republicans. Do you see political self-interest in the president's efforts to attack mail-in voting, but also Republican parties, other efforts that have been called voter suppression, voter I.D. laws, restricting the number of polling stations? Do you, sadly, suspect that's the intent?

GRISWOLD: Absolutely. And it's not only that I suspect, it's the intent, the president has straight out told us that it's intent. He said that he opposes vote by mail because Republicans will lose seats. And, frankly, that's just not true. And I know I just named out the increase among black, Latino and younger voters, but also working class voters turn out increased by double digits. And we saw an equal increase among Republican registered voters and Democrats.

And believe it or not, Jim, we just had our statewide primary in Colorado on June 30th. We set a turnout record, even during the pandemic and to share with you more registered Republicans, a higher rate of registered Republicans used mail ballots than Democrats.

So this is a system that's good for the country. I do think it's reprehensible that the president would force Americans to risk their health to cast a ballot. It's 2020. And unlike the president, I support saving lives and also having accessible elections. We can do it as a nation. It's called vote by mail for all. We still have time to make sure the franchise is protected in November.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Always remind the people the president votes by mail, as does many members of his family.

Will -- this is another question, because Kanye West has now applied to be on the ballot in the election in Colorado. This has happened in Wisconsin as well. He's backed by Republicans in doing so. Will he be on the ballot in Colorado, and do you see this as an effort to siphon votes away from Joe Biden?

GRISWOLD: Well, Jim, we are going to have to wait a couple more days. He turned his signatures and his filing fee to our office yesterday so we'll have that announcement after checking all the signatures that will verify.

But I do think that there is a concerted effort to use the pandemic to suppress the vote, whether it's lies about vote by mail, the defunding and attacks on the post office to inviting foreign interference. The president is leading the charge to make sure that voters lose confidence in November. So we have to fight back against that.

We have every tool to be able to have successful elections even during the pandemic. Just look towards us. We set a record turnout during the pandemic just a month ago. And we're here to work with other secretaries of states, other states to increase the use of mail ballots for November.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Well, if they can increase turnout, it would be a win for everybody in a democracy. We'll see how November goes.

Jena Griswold, thanks so much for taking the time.

GRISWOLD: Thank you so much.

HARLOW: That was a fascinating interview. All right, we'll see what happens with Kanye trying to get on the ballot there.

Ahead, an important conversation about race. Our country finally having a reckoning on race that is so long overdue. And this morning, chief diversity officers from some of the biggest companies in the world are calling on their bosses and other CEOs to make big changes.

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[10:25:00]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. There are more than 13,000 school districts across this country. All of them have to make a tough decision now whether to go pack to in- person classes or to teach students solely online.

HARLOW: What is in store for the more than 50 million children who attend public schools across this country? Our Bianna Golodryga has a breakdown.

Good morning. You've been for months now at the impact on education of coronavirus. What do you know about the 101 largest school districts in this country?

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, Poppy. I wish I could give you more clarity as to where we stand in the country, but of the 101, 62 are now going to be starting online. Now, that's 7 million U.S. students.

Ten are going to be starting with the hybrid model, 17 are going to be starting with either all online or in person, and five have yet to finalize a plan.

Now, take a bigger picture here of the nation's 25 larger school districts. All but five have announced that they're going to be starting remotely. We're, of course, waiting to see what happens in New York City, whether it's going to be a few days in class, in hybrid and online at home. We have yet to see.

But this is a huge dilemma for so many parents. As you know, you're not going to restart the economy without the schools reopened.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And then you have differences in many of those districts between what public schools are doing, what independent religious schools are.

Tell us about what we've learned so far from the handful of schools and districts that have already opened. What are they seeing?

GOLODRYGA: Look, it doesn't look good. We've talked about it. Look at what's happened in Georgia.

[10:30:00]

Look at what's happened in Indiana. We've had cases in North Carolina as well.

Now, experts I've talked to said that even in a best case scenario.

END