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Interview with Arizona Teacher Matt Chicci; Government Accountability Office Finds HHS Officials Appointed Unlawfully; Interview with Milwaukee Commissioner of Health Jeanette Kowalik. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired August 14, 2020 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Because of that, now at least two teachers have resigned. Joining us now is one of those, Matthew Chicci. Good morning, thanks so much for coming on this morning.

Explain your decision here, right? I mean, because there are standards that the CDC has for reopening schools, where the outbreak needs to be to do so safely. Is it your concern that those standards weren't met here?

MATT CHICCI, ARIZONA TEACHER: Yes. I mean, what made me make my decision was the fact that those particular standards weren't met. The viral rate, infection rate is still high. Our county, Maricopa County that we live in, still is very high as far as the infection rate and the number of positive cases.

And our state board -- our superintendent of public instruction has even said that schools in Arizona shouldn't be opening. And so if the county health department and our state superintendent are saying it's not safe to reopen, it's not safe to do so.

And so through (INAUDIBLE) through the months, it was an agonizing decision to make. But for me and my family, it was the right one.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: Yes. You're a chemistry teacher, and --

CHICCI: Yes.

HARLOW: -- I remember, you know, my chemistry teacher spending hours with me, you know, really helping me understand and just what important work you guys do. And for you, you said that you know, this is your choice, such a tough one. You had to choose your family, quote, "or I'll be short a family member."

It was --

CHICCI: Correct.

HARLOW: -- that dire a situation for you? CHICCI: It is, because I've got a member of my family that, you know,

is at high risk. And so if I'm put into a classroom of 30 or more kids, it's a small room, there's one exit, there's -- the ventilation isn't all that great for schools. They did increase the airflow, but that doesn't mean that they put in the proper filters to filter out virus particles. And so it's just -- it's not a good situation.

SCIUTTO: Yes. So the district put some precautions in -- I think we can put some of these on the screen --

CHICCI: Yes.

SCIUTTO: -- some of these, folks will be familiar with. All students, staff, visitors over the age of five must wear facial coverings, hand sanitizers near classroom entries, et cetera. But they also then have these exemptions. Students and staff not required to wear face coverings when they can socially distance.

You know, this is really the key there. What would you need to see to feel comfortable, both in terms of the outbreak but also safety precautions to feel that you could be safe but also, crucially, students could be safe?

CHICCI: The key thing is that we need to make sure that the positivity and test rates are very, very low. So that means that the virus isn't being transmitted very productively through the community.

The other thing is, being able to social distance. In a class of 30, I can only keep them (INAUDIBLE) apart.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: Yes.

CHICCI: I need to have them -- you know, we did the math in our science, we needed classes of 10.

HARLOW: Wow. OK, I do want to read you part of the statement we got from the district this morning -- we wanted to hear what they had to say about this. And they said, "The majority of our parents want some form of in-person instruction. However, families can continue with our longtime online learning option if they're not ready for their child to return to the classroom."

So the kids have an option. Were you given an option as a teacher when you asked, can I teach remotely?

CHICCI: No, I wasn't given an option. It wasn't an option. You -- we were --

SCIUTTO: Interesting.

CHICCI: -- we weren't given the option to teach from home, no.

HARLOW: Might have changed everything for you.

SCIUTTO: There you have it.

HARLOW: Yes.

CHICCI: It would have. A lot of us would have stayed if we had had that option, or if we'd even had some kind of hybrid option to where we had smaller class sizes, we would have had a lot of us stay.

HARLOW: Matt, thank you for being with us.

CHICCI: Thank you so much.

[10:33:48]

HARLOW: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Lots of breaking news just in to CNN. First this, Robert Trump, the younger brother of President Donald Trump, has been hospitalized in New York. Deputy press secretary Judd Deere confirmed the news to CNN. The president is expected to visit his brother later today in New York. We will stay on top of all we learn about this.

Also, this just in to CNN: A new report from the Government Accountability Office, it says that the appointments of two top leadership roles at the Department of Homeland Security are invalid based on the law. Evan Perez joins us now.

Evan, explain that to us because this is a president who has used a lot of acting people in very senior roles, including in these roles. Explain how we got on the wrong side of the law here.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Jim. Well, the Homeland Security Department has not had a confirmed -- a Senate-confirmed -- leader since Kirstjen Nielsen resigned last April. And so the Government Accountability Office is saying that, based on the reading of the law, the Trump administration never actually followed what is supposed to be the succession that is set forth under the law to lead this department.

Chad Wolf is the acting head of the Homeland Security Department, and Ken Cuccinelli is also a top official in that department. And neither of them are in their positions according to what is legally supposed to be followed under the succession rules at the Homeland Security Department.

And so according to this report, it's not clear exactly what's going to happen next. It's not clear whether the courts have to resolve this issue. It also is not clear, Jim, whether any of the actions that are taken under these two men actually have the force of law. Because if they're not there in their jobs legally --

[10:40:11]

SCIUTTO: Yes.

PEREZ: -- then that raises the question of whether any actions that are signed by them are actually lawful.

SCIUTTO: But if they're not lawfully in those positions, isn't it cut and dry that they can't serve in those positions? I know this is an administration who sometimes flat-out ignores the laws, you know, that it doesn't like. What should be happening here if things were normal?

PEREZ: Yes. Under normal circumstances, what a president would do is nominate somebody, the Senate would approve it. But this is something that the Senate, the Republican-controlled Senate, has allowed to happen.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

PEREZ: This is not normal actions by any Senate. You know, they usually very jealously guard their right to make these appointments official under the law. That has not happened, they have allowed President Trump to essentially run over the Senate just in the last -- you know, in the last couple of years.

So again, it's not clear whether or not this is going to actually matter. Obviously, the election is very close, Jim. But one of the things that the GAO does is it kicks it over to the Homeland Security Department's inspector general to see what actions should be taken.

SCIUTTO: Yes, yes. Evan Perez, good to have you on the story. Thanks very much.

PEREZ: Thanks, sure.

HARLOW: Well, blacks and Latinos in the United States are still contracting coronavirus at higher rates and dying from the virus at higher rates than white Americans. In Milwaukee, 35 percent of the cases are among Hispanics, 33 percent among the black population there.

And this as the now-mostly digital DNC kicks off in Milwaukee, Monday. Milwaukee County became, last year, the first in the nation to declare racism a public health crisis. And the woman who led that effort -- and who is leading the charge now, in the fight against COVID, is Dr. Jeanette Kowalik, Milwaukee's commissioner of health.

It's good to have you, thanks for being here.

JEANETTE KOWALIK, COMMISSIONER OF HEALTH, MILWAUKEE HEALTH DEPARTMENT: Thank you for having me.

HARLOW: Let's begin with the DNC, right? Scaled back dramatically the -- you know, Biden won't go, Senator won't go, almost all the big speakers are remote.

I know you were really worried about a bunch of people descending on your city for this. Have all of the things that have been put in place now, satisfied you from a health perspective?

KOWALIK: Yes. I mean, we've been consulting with the planners and all of the other federal agencies have been part of the planning for the last year. Little did we know there would be a pandemic, so --

HARLOW: Right.

KOWALIK: -- we were hopeful that we would be in a better position at this point in time. I know the planners had changed the date of the convention to August for that very reason, but we're still not there yet. Our positivity rate is about seven percent in our area.

HARLOW: Let's talk about you as a leader in this and what it has meant for you personally. Because as I mentioned, you know, Milwaukee last year, you were the first. You were the first city county to declare racism a public health crisis. And so many have followed you subsequently.

And the pandemic's been personal for you. I mean, one of the hotspots in Milwaukee where we've seen some of the most cases is the predominantly black neighborhood where you grew up, and that is Sherman Park. Sixty-nine percent of the COVID cases, as I just said there, among minorities. How is all of this shaping your response?

KOWALIK: Oh, I mean, honestly having data about the impact of race and -- or COVID by race and ethnicity was very, very important for us because that informed our ability to adjust our strategy.

One thing we didn't realize though -- because normally when you see like hotspots in those types of situations in public health, you assume it's related to a specific event. What we've learned through other jurisdictions sharing their race and ethnicity data for COVID, was that we were seeing the impacts of racism playing out through this pandemic.

HARLOW: Yes. I'd like to unpack that a little bit more because as a black woman yourself who has had a number of health challenges personally -- I mean, one that you had to take a leave of absence earlier this year from this position to address -- you say on a recent podcast that I listened to, "My heart is with the people. I'm a black woman. I could just be quiet and complacent and act like there's nothing going on that's impacting me, which would be a total lie."

What has it been like leading through this crisis with your own autoimmune issues? And really, having to personally face what it's like for you while trying to lead the charge?

KOWALIK: Oh, it's been extremely challenging because you know, honestly, this work is just nonstop. I mean, we were preparing for COVID and then once that hit, I mean, literally the days, you wake up, you're working, you go to sleep late at night, you're working.

And that's not good, you know, obviously for someone with an autoimmune condition such as myself. Adequate sleep is really important, taking care of yourself, exercising, eating properly. All of these things that are very basic impact your ability to be able to perform at the highest level.

[10:45:06] So by the grace of God, I've been like operating on fumes, but we still deal with a number of challenges and stressors from the political environment, the community, colleagues, you name it. It's been extremely challenging, but there are a number of supports.

And I just want to acknowledge my mayor, Tom Barrett, for being supportive of my ability to -- I'm working from home, I've been working from home since March. Our department had telework policies in place before COVID (INAUDIBLE) able to extend (ph) it after (INAUDIBLE).

HARLOW: One thing that I was surprised to hear, reading about you -- and that I wanted to talk about, was the fact that you actually have policing powers too. You have a lot of authority to enforce mandates.

There is a mask mandate in Milwaukee. You have clearly faced a number of challenges to that, looking at all the protests over masks, et cetera. What has that been like and why do you think that is?

KOWALIK: Oh, it's -- well, you know, I said this in a number of interviews, where you know, our ability to pinpoint that there was a disparity for COVID-19 by race and ethnicity helped us alter our strategy so that we could increase our outreach, add additional testing sites, just really help our communities of color prevent their exposure to COVID-19.

But what -- on the flip side, once we started sharing that data, we started seeing this, oh, these orders are tyranny, you're, you know, infringing on my rights, my freedoms -- from white people. And honestly, I don't think those conversations would have happened if we didn't start sharing the data, that more people of color were being impacted by COVID-19.

So the orders are meant to protect our community. And it doesn't matter, you know, where people live, in the city, if they're more affluent areas or more under-resourced areas, but the orders are meant to provide broad-based protections. And honestly, I am happy that our mayor has been supportive of having orders, our Common Council.

The ordinance for the mask was initially brought to us through one of our alderwomen -- a new alderperson by the way, (INAUDIBLE) -- having that support to (INAUDIBLE) is extremely important. I know some health officers don't have that in their communities.

HARLOW: Commissioner Kowalik, I think -- it cut out for a minute in my ear, but thank you very much. Good luck as the DNC kicks off there.

KOWALIK: Thank (ph) you (ph).

HARLOW: Appreciate you being with us this morning.

KOWALIK: Mm-hmm, bye.

HARLOW: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [10:52:09]

HARLOW: Welcome back. So as you know, we're less than three months from the 2020 presidential election. And a new CNN special report takes a close look at one of the biggest topics surrounding the last few cycles. That is, the Electoral College. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The present system is dangerous, it's outdated, it's archaic, it's one that needs to be revised.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST, COUNT ON CONTROVERSY (voice-over): Born hundreds of years ago --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It really was a Frankenstein's monster of sorts.

BERMAN (voice-over): -- challenged and criticized, but fiercely resilient until now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are some issues. For better or worse, I tried a Hail Mary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: HE said, I think we can do something about this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I decided maybe someone should take a stand.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were the Bad News Bears of the political world.

BERMAN (voice-over): Going rogue meant taking risks --

BERMAN: Did you think you were committing a crime?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were fined a thousand dollars.

BERMAN (voice-over): -- and the backlash was brutal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Plenty of death threats and hate.

BERMAN (voice-over): A desperate political play to try to keep one man from becoming president.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it scared people because no one's used the Electoral College this way.

BERMAN: That you thought you had the power to change history?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought that we had the power to prevent a demagogue from taking office.

BERMAN (voice-over): Election 2020 --

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: -- on the path to defeating Donald Trump. BERMAN (voice-over): -- could it happen again?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: America should not take lectures on racial justice from Joe Biden.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are going to be in uncharted territory. This is a Pandora's box.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Joining us now, CNN anchor and host of this special, John Berman. So, John, you've got a couple issues here. One is the sort of faithless elector idea, can you defy the vote if you think --

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: -- you know, you've got a bad guy in office? But the other is, you know, one person, one vote, you know? We've already had two presidents elected now in the last couple of decades that lost the popular vote.

BERMAN: Here's the thing. When it comes to one person, one vote, the Electoral College has nothing to do with that. Constitutionally speaking, it has nothing to do with that. The Constitution has no requirement that citizens vote in a presidential election, at all. All it says is the state legislatures can, you know, select the electors in the means that they want.

So one person, one vote was never applied in the math, literally. If you are from Wyoming, your vote towards an Electoral College vote counts more than someone from California. So you know, it just isn't applicable here and it creates one of the problems for the Electoral College as a whole.

HARLOW: Tell us about faithless electors and that great character you have in there. And I say "great" as in intriguing --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: -- and you say, do you think you were breaking the law?

BERMAN: So the faithless electors became a big thing in the 2016 election. A group of Democratic electors wanted to change the outcome. They would have needed to convince enough Republicans to change also. They voted for different candidates than the one their states did.

It ended up going all the way to the Supreme Court. What they wanted to do was shine a light on how broken the system is. The Supreme Court ultimately ruled nine to zero against them, that states can prevent electors from voting against the will of the states in those elections, and states can issue penalties if they want.

[10:55:17]

SCIUTTO: Well, we'll see how the College plays out in this election. John Berman, thanks very much. And be sure to tune in for CNN's special report, "COUNT ON

CONTROVERSY: INSIDE THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE." Airs tomorrow night, 10:00 Eastern time only on CNN.

HARLOW: Yes, that'll be great.

All right, thanks for joining us. Have a good weekend. I'm Poppy Harlow.

SCIUTTO: And I'm Jim Sciutto. NEWSROOM with John King starts after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:00:00]