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Interview With Mike Lindell, MyPillow CEO & Founder; MyPillow Creator: Trump Enthusiastic Over Unproven Therapeutic; Dr. Jake Deutsch Discusses Trump Backing Oleandrin, CNN Interview With Mike Lindell; Update On Coronavirus Responses Across The Country; Attorney Anthony Rupp Discusses Judge's Upcoming Decision On Allowing Couple To Have 175-Guest Wedding; Trump Fires Back At Michelle Obama's Convention Speech: She's In Over Her Head. Aired 1:30-2p ET
Aired August 18, 2020 - 13:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:30:00]
MIKE LINDELL, CEO & FOUNDER, MYPILLOW: The only thing I've done is I have given it to my friends and family to save their lives. And I'm not telling you to take anything.
I'm tell you when the FDA approves it --
(CROSSTALK)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: -- on shelves for people to take.
LINDELL: No. When the FDA approves this it will save millions of lives and we hope it gets out there fast, that they get the approval done to the INV (ph).
I just want to see people save lives and get back to normalcy in this country so that we sit here with -- you know, crippled as a country and here's the solution. That's all.
COOPER: When people hear -- I know you're the -- I think the campaign -- the finance chairman for President Trump in --
(CROSSTALK)
LINDELL: No, no, no. Campaign chairman for Minnesota with the horrific things on in Minnesota.
I'm going to get the word out of how bad the government has been in Minnesota. The mayor and governor with riots and bad decisions.
COOPER: What people find upsetting is that, because you have the ear of the president, you are put on the board of this company and get a financial stake in this --
(CROSSTALK)
LINDELL: That's a lie. That's a lie. That's a lie. I don't have the ear of the president on that.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: You didn't arrange a meeting with the president and folks in this company?
LINDELL: The task force did. Ben Carson is on the task force. I was in there. He was in there.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: You got Ben Carson to go with you to the president --
(CROSSTALK)
LINDELL: No. Ben Carson was informed of this on Easter Sunday. He's on the task force. Anything I hear good out there I bring it to the task force.
COOPER: You attended a meeting with the president and Ben Carson and people from this company?
LINDELL: One person in there. And he wanted to be informed on any good cure, anything that's out there --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: That's the reason you were brought -- that's the reason you were brought into the company because you have the ear of the president.
(CROSSTALK)
LINDELL: No, no, no.
COOPER: -- willing to promote this, just like your pillow and make the claims.
LINDELL: No. The company brought me in because they wanted -- they know -- they said, our passion -- it's an amazing small company. Full of Christians, great Christians. They want to help humanity.
And they came to me knowing I know how to sale something to the masses and get it out to everyone. As soon as the FDA approves this --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: You know how to sell something. You know how to promote a product.
(CROSSTALK)
LINDELL: This will be out. This would be out. I won't need to sell this. This will go to every hospital --
(CROSSTALK)
LINDELL: -- every hospital and every person that needs help. COOPER: You've run --
(CROSSTALK)
LINDELL: -- and it will go out to everybody. I don't have to go on TV and do a commercial for it. It is going to help the masses.
(CROSSTALK)
LINDELL: And you know what? You will probably want to take it yourself. You'll probably want to take it yourself if you --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: I guarantee you I would not.
LINDELL: Can I have a bottle to stick in my drawer for safety?
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: I guarantee I would not be taking medical advice from you, sir. I can promise you that. So --
(CROSSTALK)
LINDELL: I'm just telling you --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: -- just in summation -
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Just in summation, I want to make sure I have this right.
LINDELL: -- proud that it works.
What?
COOPER: OK. Just in summation, I want to make sure this is right. you have to medical background. You have no scientific background at all. You have a financial stake in this company.
You don't know -- you can't give any details about an alleged study of 1,000 people that you allegedly have read. But you remember nothing about it, not one single detail other than 1,000 people.
This has not been tested anywhere outside one lab in a test tube. It's never been tested in animals, never peer reviewed, studied, tests published, studied in people, never studied against COVID-19, no peer reviewed, no published studies. And yet, you say this is the cure for COVID.
(CROSSTALK)
LINDELL: Can I give my answer? COOPER: And you have a history of --
LINDELL: I'll give you my answer --
COOPER: And you have -- and you have a history of running ads that you have had to make massive settlements for because they were deceptive testimonials claiming medical benefits for --
(CROSSTALK)
LINDELL: Can I give you my answer? Can I give you my answer?
COOPER: Please do.
LINDELL: The first three, you are correct. I have no medical background, not a scientist. But I did do my due diligence.
And you're wrong. There have been studies with the COVID, with humans. It's not published yet. The FDA has it. There's one with 1,000 people for safety. It's passed phase one and phase two. If you checked on that, I'm sure you can find that out. That is true.
And -- and --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: You can't say --
(CROSSTALK)
LINDELL: Let me finish my answer.
And, yes, I have been attacked with frivolous lawsuits that I had to settle because I backed the greatest president this country has ever seen in history when I first met him.
And I met him and going, wow, what a great way to have a pragmatic, common-sense president that is the stuff he's done, promises, kept promised made. The greatest in the history of the United States.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: You are hoping he's watching to have you get another meeting. I get it.
(CROSSTALK)
Mike Lindell, I appreciate your being on. I think, honestly, I think it's shameful what you are doing. If you really want to help people --
(CROSSTALK)
LINDELL: Anderson -- will you promise me --
(CROSSTALK)
LINDELL: -- will you promise me that when the FDA approves --
COOPER: All right.
LINDELL: Let me come back on when this is all proven and you get to see the results?
COOPER: If there's a published peer-reviewed study that is showing efficacy for this, great.
[13:35:04]
Believe me, I want more than anything for this to be a cure for this. We are all --
(CROSSTALK)
LINDELL: Thank you, thank you. We are all in this together.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: No, we are not -- we are not all on this together. Because you are making money off of this.
LINDELL: -- help people.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: You're making money out there.
LINDELL: This isn't a political thing or a money thing for me. This is to help humanity and help save lives.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: All right. Your track record says otherwise.
LINDELL: -- family lives have been changed.
And I would like to hope that -- I'm praying that -- for you, Anderson, that you have me back on the show when this all comes to fruition.
God bless you.
COOPER: Mike Lindell, thank you very much.
I want to bring in Dr. Jake Deutsch, an actual doctor.
Dr. Deutsch, what's going on?
DR. JAKE DEUTSCH, EMERGENCY MEDICINE PHYSICIAN: Where do we begin here? Yes, I mean, obviously, the commentary is -- it speaks for itself. No knowledge of the science. You know?
Talking about case reports of a test tube study where they put the Oleander extract in with the virus and it showed that it killed it. That's so far from scientific.
COOPER: Just to be clear, correct me if I'm wrong, there are many, many substances, which in a test tube will have an impact.
DEUTSCH: Exactly.
COOPER: If you put bleach in a test tube, it will kill something.
(CROSSTALK)
DEUTSCH: Right. So extrapolating that --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: -- you should not take bleach or an animal should take bleach. Though the president of the United States did suggest they test bleach on human beings, that's not something that doctors would actually do.
DEUTSCH: And that's what scares me here, Anderson. We are really talking about a highly toxic substance.
Oleander is a plant widely available. A small amount of consumption can be fatal causing arrhythmias, hypertension. You know, it is more likely someone would die from taking Oleander than from COVID.
So what I'm afraid of is that this misinformation, this hype to try to find a cure, throwing the president's name behind it, leads to people doing more harm. And that's not the objective of trying to find a cure. So this is extremely scary to me.
COOPER: Just so -- I think when people hear peer-reviewed studies, published studies, it is confusing. And I know now what it means but when I first heard about it, it's confusion.
To be clear, this isn't an ivory tower, oh, they're wanting it to be peer reviewed. Anybody can claim anything in some report and say, I did this, put this in a test tube and had an impact.
DEUTSCH: Right.
COOPER: You don't get to then start selling it and say this really works, I promise. I've seen it with my own eyes and I'm a good person and I'm telling you it works.
There's a rigorous system to go through, just like the vaccines are going through this Warp Speed thing. But they're having a phase one trial, phase two trial, phase three trial. None of that has occurred with this substance.
DEUTSCH: Right. Yes. We are completely forgetting about the scientific process. We're using hype, fear. We're using information that isn't founded on the principles, which we practice good medicine from.
And what really is the scary part is people taking assumptions that they can solve this themselves. They don't have access to the medication because it is not approved. But oh, I can perhaps get Oleander from a plant and then we're going to get into trouble.
I saw people who drank bleach as patients. That is the reality. People take this serious when coming from people of authority, particularly the president.
And I don't want to see any fatalities of people trying to experiment on their own. We need to stop the madness.
COOPER: It's important to note that the president is not talking to Dr. Fauci. The president -- doesn't seem like Dr. Birx is any longer as listened to by this president.
The president is meeting with that guy and the people he brought in with him. Ben Carson is involved in this for some reason. You know? He's the HUD secretary. And the head of -- Azar wasn't in that meeting.
But this is the person the president is talking to about products that have not actually -- there's no scientific basis for it at this point. More studies should be done. Fine.
But there's no scientific basis at this point and he's not listening to actual scientists.
DEUTSCH: Right. The moment that somebody says, I'm not a scientist but will give you medical information and scientific recommendations, that is a red flag. That's like myself trying to comment on politics. I'm not a politician. I'm a physician.
There's just so many concerning parts about where the loyalty lies, what the financial ramifications are. What's next? Will we see a MyPillow in the White House with a press photo? These are just terrible red flags in my opinion.
COOPER: Dr. Deutsch, appreciate it. Thank you very much.
DEUTSCH: Thank you.
COOPER: The University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, canceling in- person classes after a week in what the student newspaper called a cluster.
[13:40:05]
Plus, a mayor in Oklahoma is begging the annual Weedstock Music Festival to cancel the event this weekend.
COOPER: A judge will soon decide on whether a couple can have a 175- person wedding in New York. I'll speak with their attorney ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:45:12]
COOPER: School officials in Oklahoma City say a high school student infected with coronavirus knowingly went to school and exposed several classmates. Administrators say the parents thought that because the student was asymptomatic the 14-day quarantine wouldn't apply. School official learned of the student's status from an anonymous tipster.
Here's a look at other national headlines on coronavirus.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHLOE MELAS, CNN ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER: I'm Chloe Melas. Thousands of people will descend on Stillwater, Oklahoma, for the Weedstock Music Festival which beings this Thursday.
But officials are not happy about it and deeply concerned there will be a spike in coronavirus cases. And that this festival could disrupt plans for schools to have in-person learning this fall.
The mayor of Stillwater tweeted that it is not right the time for thousands of people to gather. A representative for the festival told CNN they plan to make everyone wear masks and gloves.
POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Polo Sandoval, in New York. At least two dozen cases in the state of Maine have been linked to a wedding. Health officials say 24 people associated with the August event tested positive for COVID. And 18 of them attended the reception at Big Moose Inn.
Officials are conducting contact tracing and communicating with the inn to try to learn more about the wedding, mainly adhering if folks were adhering to state requirements.
Maine does allow social gatherings if it's 50 people or less indoors and no more than 100 outside. Fewer, if the space is too cramped.
Authorities say approximately 65 guests, all Maine residents, attended the wedding.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Everyone, thanks.
A New York couple, just days away from their wedding, will find out if the ceremony will even happen. Last month, they sued the state for their right to hold their wedding at a golf club with more questions than currently allowed during the pandemic.
The couple won the case and are now caught in an entanglement with the state, which filed an appeal to stop the wedding. The couple believes their constitutional rights are being violated.
Attorney Anthony Rupp is the attorney representing the couple.
Thanks so much for being with us.
Where does the case stand right now?
R. ANTHONY RUPP III, ATTORNEY REPRESENTING COUPLE SUING TO HOLD WEDDING: The state of New York moved for a stay of the injunction we achieved to allow the wedding to go forward. So the state is essentially trying to have the judge undo the ruling of August 8th.
COOPER: Can you explain why your clients believe the state is violating their rights?
RUPP: Well, sure. The venue where the wedding is held has two dining halls that can seat in excess of 200 people. In fact, the Sterling can seat 438. So half of that, 50 percent occupancy as a restaurant is 219 people. So on any given evening, they can have 219 people seated at tables, serve dinners.
This couple just wants to have a wedding with 175 guests and have the venue for the evening, no guests cycling in and out. They want to have as normal and traditional a wedding as they possibly can.
And the state said it's fine to seat 219 people for dinner but not 175 people for a wedding.
And it is important to note that these people have agreed there won't be dancing at the wedding. Not getting up to mingle but follow the restaurant protocols and guidelines that New York deemed safe.
And yet, because it's a wedding, they can't have it.
COOPER: So the 219 limit, that's in normal times for the restaurant?
RUPP: Right. So New York State allowed an exemption for 50 percent of the occupancy seated at any given time for a meal. So 438 is half of that is 219.
So New York says it's perfectly safe to have 219 diners at the Arrowhead Golf Club having dinner. But the moment you call it a wedding and have a wedding dinner, they're limited to 50 people.
And that is a violation of equal protection under the law and the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. And it is not justified at all from a medical standpoint.
COOPER: How are -- no one will mingle at the wedding?
RUPP: Well, these people have all agreed and the venue has agreed that they will abide by every one of the restaurant protocols and treat it like a regular dinner. They won't get up, not dance or go to the bar. 'll adhere to protocols that restaurant diners would be required to do.
Yes, speeches and head table, of course. But these people are willing to have not the traditional type of wedding to be able to have the wedding with the guests and join together as a married couple.
(CROSSTALK)
RUPP: That's all they want to do.
[13:49:59]
COOPER: And then, at tables, are the 219 people, sitting next to each other, I assume. Not six feet apart.
RUPP: Well, remember, the capacity of the establishment is 438. So the tables are the way New York says they should be spaced.
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, they could seat 219 people legally and lawfully, according to New York's guidelines. But on Saturday night, when they call it a wedding, they can seat only 50.
The judge agreed with us when he issued his ruling and said that it made no sense. And the state made no serious effort to justify discriminating against folks who are having weddings versus people who are just going out to dinner.
COOPER: Are they going to wear masks?
RUPP: They're going to wear masks the way restaurant diners would. From the moment they get out of their cars and walk to the tables and take masks off while they're dining. You can't eat and drink with a mask on. And New York recognizes that.
We're not asking for a special exemption from the rule. We're asking for the same exemption that the state has already given to tens of thousands of restaurants and bars across New York State.
Why is New York saying you can't hold a wedding when the venue itself and all the attendees at the wedding have agreed to abide by the restaurant protocols? It makes no sense. The judge agreed with us that it made no sense.
Now the state came in before the decision came down -- I believe the decision was actually August 7th -- and pulled the liquor license from the establishment in retaliation from the lawsuit.
They're trying to prevent the second couple, on whose behalf we sued, to have their wedding go forward on the 22nd.
This wedding was scheduled at a time when the venue was getting guidance from the county departments of health and Albany, saying that they were not subject to the 50-person rule. They were subject to the 50 percent occupancy rule.
That's when this wedding was booked. A couple of weeks later, they turned the tables on us and said 50 people.
COOPER: We'll continue to follow it.
Anthony Rupp, appreciate it. Thanks very much.
Formerly the epicenter of the pandemic, now Wuhan -- get this -- is hosting a massive water park party. How things have changed.
Plus, just in, the postmaster general is suspending all changes at the post office as he gets ready to testify against accusations of voter suppression.
And the president fires back at Michelle Obama's scathing convention speech, saying the former first lady is, quote, "in over her head," end quote.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Former first lady, Michelle Obama, delivering a blistering speech on the first night of the Democratic National Convention. The powerful remarks hit directly at President Trump's ability to lead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[13:55:07]
MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: Let me be as honest and clear as I possibly can. Donald Trump is the wrong president for our country.
He has had more than enough time to prove that he can do the job, but he is clearly in over his head. He cannot meet this moment. He simply cannot be who we need him to be for us. It is what it is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Today, President Trump fired back at Michelle Obama while speaking at an event celebrating women's rights.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's over her head. And, frankly, she should have made the speech live, which she didn't do. She taped it.
It was not only taped, it was taped a long time ago, because she had the wrong deaths. She didn't even mention the vice-presidential candidate in the speech.
She gets these phony reviews. If you gave a real review, it wouldn't be so phony. I thought it was a very divisive speech, extremely divisive.
And, frankly, I wouldn't be here if it weren't for Barack Obama. We're standing in the White House. I wouldn't had been in the White House, except for Barack Obama, because they did a bad job, Biden and Obama. And if they did a good job, I wouldn't be here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Just a reminder, that was a women's rights event that he was saying all that at.
Joining me now to discuss is Michele Norris. She's a "Washington Post" contributing columnist and appeared on Michelle Obama's podcast last week.
Michele, great to see you.
Having spent some time with Mrs. Obama --
MICHELE NORRIS, CONTRIBUTING COLUMNIST, "WASHINGTON POST": Great to see you, too.
COOPER: -- I wonder what your reaction is to her speech and to the president's response.
NORRIS: Well, first, to her speech, what an incredible act of oration. Just perfectly delivered. The tone, the setting, the words, the message.
And interesting you use the clip which ended with that phrase, it is what it is. Taking the president's own words and essentially necklacing them around his neck, in his case, uttered when speaking about a death rate that had spiraled out of control in America.
In her case, talking not about apathy but agency, trying to make people understand what is at stake in this election.
The president noted that the reviews have been fawning for good reason. It was a very powerful speech delivered under unusual circumstances from her home, instead of in that audience.
But in that way, it seemed that it gave it even more power because the words were not adorned by the roar of the crowd you would normally see at a convention. But it had a chance to hang out there and really hit people and resonate in a very different way.
COOPER: Yes. I thought, you know, the medium is very different than being in a convention hall. Convention speeches are a certain type and you have to wait for the crowd, as you said. There's an intimacy.
NORRIS: Yes.
COOPER: This kind of format is at its best when it makes the most of that intimacy. She really did that. She was asking to pull up a chair and talk with her about something.
She also made it clear that she hates politics when she said that outright, reminding us that, in her speech, and talking about the president. not on political terms of policies, which people can disagree on, but on character, on who he actually is and isn't.
NORRIS: Right, right. And that's what's actually at stake, the character of that man, but also the character of the country.
You noted that it felt like she asked you to pull up a chair. I noticed that, too. It almost felt like you were sitting at the end of a kitchen table or there was a coffee table between you.
She spoke as someone who said she doesn't like politics. And the back and forth we've seen from the White House is probably what she disdains.
But she does care about policy. And she does care about the country.
And she talked as someone who is a proud American. But also as a mother. She talked repeatedly about our children and what they're watching in this moment. And what's at stake for them. Because of COVID, because of the
protests that we're seeing in the streets, because of climate change and global warming.
She made all of that very clear in the way that she spoke. And the message that she delivered in a very powerful opening for the DNC.
COOPER: In the second episode of Michelle Obama's podcast, which you took part in, she talked about her mind-set. I just want to play some of that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
M. OBAMA (voice-over): These are not -- they are not fulfilling times spiritually, you know? So I know that I am dealing with some form of low-grade depression. Not just because of the quarantine but because of the racial strife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That comment got a lot of attention. What do you think she meant by that?
[14:00:02]
NORRIS: Well, I mean, she said what she said, that, you know, she's feeling a little low sometimes. And I appreciate that she was willing to make herself vulnerable in that way.
