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Postmaster General Faces Grilling Over Post Office Changes; USPS Chief: "Will Remain Independent" Despite Close Ties to Trump, RNC. Aired 9:30-10a ET.

Aired August 21, 2020 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

LOUIS DEJOY, POSTMASTER GENERAL, U.S. POSTAL SERVICE: If that is not running -- and that was not my Louis DeJoy schedule, that was the Postal Service's schedule that was connected to all of the delivery points; the 161 million delivery points that we deliver to each day.

[09:30:02]

That had to be on-time to get our carriers out on-time, to make the deliveries on-time so they can get back during the day instead of the night.

And that was the number one; the transportation network was the glue that keeps everything together. And I worked with the team for a -- we had many, many people involved -- operating people involved with team.

We had all the are vice presidents involved with this -- with this -- with this change. And we have taken -- I submitted in my report this chart here which shows that we went from 88 percent -- 88 percent on- time to 97 percent on-time delivery.

All the mail that was sitting on docks got advanced. And our late trips dropped from 5,000 -- from 3,500 a day to 600 a day. Within a week we made that change. Unfortunately some mail did not -- some mail -- our production processing within the plants was not fully aligned with this established schedule.

So this -- so we had some delays in the mail and our recovery process in this should have been a few days and it's now amounted to be a few weeks, so -- but the change that I made was blind to schedule, blind to our transportation schedule.

I believe we'll get a billion -- at least $1 billion in savings out of that running forward, and this is the key connectivity to improving our service. Once we get all the mall on that -- on those drops and 97 and 98 percent of the mail that we move around the country will be getting to its destination point on time.

That was not the case with significant substantially less than that by to my rail (ph). Those are the two changes, General -- committee that I have -- that I've made since I -- since I've been here.

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): Well, thank you Mr. Postmaster General. I think you should be commended for this type of initiative, not condemned. Senator Peters.

SEN. GARY PETERS (D-MI): Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Mr. DeJoy, again, thank you for being here today. You know, I just want to start off before asking some questions. Just making it very clear that the men and women who work at the Postal Service, who check in every day to do their jobs, do with it professionalism, with integrity and a passion to move the mail as quickly and as efficiently as possible.

What I think of the postal workers, the mail handlers, the letter carriers, they're doing a great job. They are clearly essential workers each and every day.

But as we've been going through this issue and I have talked to many of those folks across my state, they have grown increasingly frustrated with some of the recent policies that have come in place, which they say is nothing that they've seen in the past and they believe that mail has been piling up in ways that it shouldn't.

And it needs to be addressed, but these are management changes, these are policy changes. It's not the men and women who are on the front line doing this -- this work every day.

So my question, or -- so Postmaster General DeJoy, you've already heard me in my opening comments talking about the fact that I received over 7,500 complaints from folks all across Michigan, but really across the country.

Folks have sent in their concerns to me. Earlier in my opening statement, I shared some stories of hardships, so from folks both mid Beth and Mary (ph), their -- their challenges in Michigan. So, and I think I heard this in the last answer, did you -- you acknowledge that some of the changes that were put in place have delayed the mail and with a delay in mail, people can sometimes be hurt, is that true?

DEJOY: Senator, first of all, I -- I do recognize the quality capability of -- of the American postal worker. That's one of the reasons that I'm here, is to help, as well as with regard to the Postal Service's key role in serving the American -- American public.

Yes sir, I do recognize that some of these -- there's been two changes. The organizational change has had no -- I don't believe has any impact on what we've done. The transportations change (inaudible).

PETERS: Let me just jump in, I didn't want to mean to cut you off, but I'll get into those issues because I want you to elaborate a little further, but you -- there have been delays, you'll recognize that, it's clear with what we're seeing. Mail's been delayed and I've spent over a month asking you to provide some documentation in my oversight function here in this committee to -- for how you made these decisions.

What kind of analysis, what sort of vanta (ph) was put in place, and for that -- and how that information impacted some of the changes you have. Your staff has repeatedly not answered those questions, and so certainly that transparency I think is -- is unacceptable. The -- what I have uncovered though from what little data is made public by the Postal Service is on-time mail delivery. I have my chart as well here, too, which is from the eastern division.

[09:35:02]

This is what you give to your -- to your business customers. And if you look at this line here, if it's probably hard to see, but there is a red line of which you can see dipping dramatically. There's a flat line along the top of the chart, then it drops. Around July 11, you start seeing the drop.

July 18 it falls dramatically, so that's a pretty big drop in on-time mail delivery that we are seeing, and I've asked for three times since July 17 for records relating to these service changes, and how what I'm hearing from our letter carriers and postal workers, the one I'm seeing in the chart that you actually post on your website a significant drop of mail deliveries and then I don't get an answer.

Will you commit to giving me these documents which have to be readily available to the Postal Service by this Sunday? Can we get those documents to get a sense of what went into these decisions and what you're seeing in terms of mail delivery?

DEJOY: I will meet with our staff and get what documents with regard to this change, but the change, Senator, was to -- was to adhere to the transportation schedule. That was the change. (inaudible)

PETERS: That's fine. (inaudible). Obviously you have all that documented. I'd love to see the documents as to how that was done, the data supporting that, that would be--

DEJOY: And if I -- if I can add, there's, too -- and certainly there was a -- it was a slowdown in the mail when our production did not meet this schedule, but also, Senator, our employees are going -- experiencing the COVID pandemic also, and we have a significant issue in employee availability in many, many parts of the country that are leading to delays in delivery in mail.

PETERS: Let me -- let me turn to your recent announcement that you made this week that you're suspending some of the changes so that you had made over the last month. I believe the statement's fairly vague and it raises some additional questions, but I just want to be clear. These will be yes or no just so we know exactly what was intended by that. Are you suspending your policy eliminating extra trips? Yes or no?

DEJOY: No. I did -- first of all, the policy was not to eliminate extra trips. It was to mitigate extra trips.

PETERS: OK, so no (ph) to that. We're being told that you're limiting overtime, and this could possibly add to backlogs. Are you -- are you limiting overtime or is that being suspended right now that people work overtime if necessary to move the mail out efficiently every single day?

DEJOY: Senator, I -- we never eliminated overtime. That's--

PETERS: It's been curtailed significantly is what I understand. DEJOY: Nothing curtailed by me or the leadership team.

PETERS: Curtailed significantly. It's gone down. It's been limited. Will you commit to--

DEJOY: I've spent seven -- since I've been here, we've spent $700 million on overtime. Overtime runs at a 13 percent rate before I got here and it runs at a 13 percent rate now. I did not suspend--

PETERS: If you have (ph) a policy you can submit that to me. I'd appreciate it. Will you commit there will be no post office closures or suspension before November 3?

DEJOY: I confirm post office closures was not a directive a gained. That's -- I gave. That was around before I got it as a process to that. When I found out about it and it had the reaction that we did, I've suspended that until after the election.

PETERS: Well we've heard about the sorters. You addressed that earlier. Will you be bringing back any mail sorting machines that have been removed since you've become Post Master General? Will any of those come back?

DEJOY: There's no intention to do that. They're not needed, sir.

PETERS: You will not bring back any processors?

DEJOY: They're not needed, sir.

PETERS: OK. The -- I've got questions about independence and transparency. Prior to implementing the changes that you put forth in a postal system, did you discuss those changes or their potential impact on the November election with the president on anyone at the White House? And remind you you're under oath.

DEJOY: I have never spoken to the president about the Postal Service other than to congratulate me when I accepted the position.

PETERS: Did you speak or discuss any of these changes with Secretary Mnuchin?

DEJOY: During the -- during the discussion and negotiating the note, I told him I have a -- I'm working on a plan, but I never discussed the changes that I -- just said I was working on a plan to improve service and gain cost efficiencies. No grave detail other than that was about it.

PETERS: Prior to implementing the changes, did you discuss these changes or their impact on the election with any Trump campaign officials?

DEJOY: No, sir. These changes -- sir, these changes and our total analysis here and going forward -- and remember, I'm one new person in the organization with this -- with the whole structure around me, an operating structure, an executive team around me that are evolving these decisions, OK. [09:40:02]

And we're having (ph) -- we're moving forward trying to have any negative impact on the election is an outrageous claim.

PETERS: Then just one final one. Did you ever -- one final one, Mr. Chairman. Did you ever discuss any of this with Mark Meadows, any of these changes--

DEJOY: No.

PETERS: -- with him (ph)? You've never had discussion since you--

DEJOY: I haven't discussed anything with Mark Meadows. I haven't spoken to Mark Meadows up until maybe last week is the first time I spoke to him in a while (ph)--

PETERS: So finally, you will give us your word today under oath that you have not taken any action whatsoever in your capacity as Post Master General for any political reason or at the suggestion of any administration officials?

DEJOY: Sir, I will tell you my first election mail meeting, what I instructed the organization, the whole team around us, and out in the field whatever efforts we will have, double that. I was greatly concerned about all the political noise that we were hearing, and we have had -- I've had weekly reviews on this since before this -- all the excitement came out.

We are very committed. The board's committed. The postal workers are committed. The union leadership is committed to having a successful election, and the insinuation is quite frankly outrageous.

PETERS: Just one final thing, Mr. Chairman, just as we -- as we get into the election now, there has been concern that I'm hearing from state and local governments about first-class mail. Do you -- do I have your word that you're not going to mandate that states send out any ballots using either the more expensive first-class mail? And will you continue the processes and procedures to allow election mail to move as expeditiously as possible and treat it like first class?

DEJOY: Yes, sir. We will deploy processes and procedures that advance any election mail, in some cases ahead of first-class mail.

PETERS: And they won't charge local governments for the first-class mail? They can continue the process they've done in the past?

DEJOY: No, sir. I don't get to charge anybody, but no. We're not going to change any -- we're not going to change any rates.

PETERS: Great. Thank you for the time. Thank you for the indulgence, Mr. Chairman, for the extra time. Appreciate it.

JOHNSON: Thanks, Senator Peters. Now I'd -- we did allow seven-minute rounds. Both senators from your side went over. We're going to adhere to seven minutes to other members. The order of questions will be Senator Portman, Carper, Lankford, Hassan, Scott, Rosen, and then Sinema. Senator Portman.

SEN. ROB PORTMAN (R-OH): Thank you, Chairman, and thank you and to Senator Peters for holding the hearing. It's very important. It's timely. Obviously all of us want to see our Postal Service work and work well.

And let me just give a shout out to David Janis (ph) who's our letter carrier and to all the letter carriers and all the postal workers because I do think particularly during this pandemic they're more appreciated than ever. And so, the men and women who you lead, Mr. DeJoy, please pass along to them our thanks.

I like having this hearing now because I think there's been a lot of misinformation out there, and I like getting to the facts. One of the facts I've learned this morning is that you started 67 days ago, and much of what we've been talking about in the -- in the media, at least, including the blue boxes and the sorting machines, you know, that happened before you got there and was part of a plan under the former postmaster general.

She came up through the ranks -- not a political person at all. And anyway, that's -- that's helpful to know that that's what's going on.

It's also helpful to know that you were appointed by the Postal Board of Governors, and that that's a bipartisan group. In fact, we confirmed those people, and it was a unanimous selection, and I guess it's based on your being a -- a logistics expert. And just hearing you this morning, I can tell you've got a passion for the logistic side of things.

I also know that the long-term financial picture for the post office, the Postal Service is not pretty. And by the way, that's been true for a long, long time, and that is not really something that a postmaster general can do much about.

It requires legislation. Senator Collins, Senator Feinstein have a bill, as an example, right now that provides for some reforms and some additional funding. Everybody knows it's in trouble. Everybody knows we've got to deal with this issue.

And so although I'm going to ask you some -- some tough questions, and others will, really, a lot of this comes back onto Congress, and not doing its job in terms of the longer-term financial picture.

But the immediate issue is to be sure that these elections work well, and I appreciate the fact that you said this morning that that's going to be your top priority between now and the election. Every one of us on this panel, I hope, want to be sure that we have the ability to have an election that is well-run, where people have their votes counted, and many are going to be using the Postal Service.

[09:45:04]

Let me start, Mr. DeJoy, by just asking you a general question. Do you support absentee voting, and do you support voting by mail generally? DEJOY: I'm (inaudible). I'm going to vote (inaudible). I voted by mail for a number of years. The Postal Service will deliver every ballot and process every ballot in -- in -- in time that it receives.

PORTMAN: Well, I appreciate -- I appreciate that. So you -- you do support voting by mail?

DEJOY: I do.

PORTMAN: (inaudible)--

DEJOY: In fact, it's in the interest (ph) -- I think the American public should be able to vote by mail, and the Postal Service will -- will -- will support it, so I guess that's yes.

PORTMAN: Yeah, OK. Well, look, I mean, the -- the states are going to decide this, not -- not the Congress or not the post office, and -- and many states are going to do it. I mean, in Ohio, we've had absentee voting for a couple decades now that's no-fault, meaning that you don't have to give a reason, and it works quite well.

I vote every year by absentee because I don't know where the heck I'm going to be, in Washington or in Ohio, based on our schedule. So it's worked well, and you know, we also are going to have, in Ohio, a lot of other ways for people to vote. We're going to be sure that it's easy to vote in Ohio, and it's hard to cheat in Ohio, and I think that's -- that's the important thing.

There's been a lot of news coverage about the Postal Service sending letters to 46 states, including Ohio and D.C., to let them know they can't guarantee all ballots cast by mail will arrive on time. Is this due to a lack of funding, which is what many are saying, or is it due to state laws on voting and the time it takes to turn around receiving and delivering the ballots?

DEJOY: Senator, the -- this was not a change from anything that we have done in previous years. It was just more -- more -- more detail and more emphasis put on it, mostly because -- partly because of the expected rise in vote by mail, and also the -- the pandemic.

And what -- what the team set out to do is make the election boards -- and then eventually the American public -- pretty simple -- you know, what our processes were. And therefore to guarantee that you're -- if you follow this process, there was no extra Herculean efforts on our part to get your ballot in, which therefore mitigated the risk of it potentially not getting there.

PORTMAN: Yeah.

DEJOY: So mailing--

PORTMAN: Well, I think -- I think that's important to note, that this is something that has been a problem for years, including previous elections. You sent out warnings in previous elections.

And, look, I think the post office has got to coordinate better with state election systems. I think state election systems has got to coordinate better with the post office.

I mean, you know, in Ohio as an example of, you know, the time frame between when you can cast your ballot and when it is postmarked -- and you can get a ballot as -- as late as Saturday before the election, and you know, to get that to the post office and back to you and then date-stamped before Monday is very hard to -- very hard to do, logistically.

I think that's one of the things that your letter pointed out was, to these state systems, be sure and leave adequate time. Is that accurate?

DEJOY: Yes, sir. First, it was not my letter, it was a letter from general counsel. But yeah, pointing out all the different variations that we could experience, and how fast we could process it.

But yes, there are times -- we get the ballots -- ballots were sent out the day before the election. It's almost impossible to -- for us to -- for the voter to vote, for the ballot to get to the voter, for the voter to vote and for it to get back in time for the -- for the election.

So this was a -- a very, very well-thought-out effort to safeguard the election, not to get in the way of -- safeguard the processing of ballots, not to get in the way of it.

PORTMAN: What advice would you give voters? This is an opportunity for you to speak to the voters of Ohio and the country. Would you advise them to wait until the last minute, or would you advise them to leave (ph) at least a week?

DEJOY: The general word around here is vote early, vote -- vote early.

PORTMAN: Yeah, I think that's really important to tell people because, you know, again, under Ohio's law and a lot of other laws, the timeframe is really close. If you request an absentee ballot, you've got to be sure that it can be delivered in time.

I am concerned about the delays that we have seen in Ohio and elsewhere. We have a number of veterans who contacted us and said they weren't able to get their medication, and there's some just heartbreaking stories. One is 70-year-old, served in Vietnam, has COPD, has trouble breathing.

The inhaler refill was mailed through the Postal Service. Due to delays, he ran out of it while waiting for it to arrive and then his insurance said, "You know, what, we're not going to pay for another refill to be filled because it's already been shipped through the Postal Service." And he can't afford to pay for another emergency refill personally.

Let me ask you about that, particularly the veterans' medications that are shipped through the mail.

[09:50:02]

Are you focused on that issue and what can we do to correct that problem?

DEJOY: Senator, first of all, I am -- we are working here feverishly to get the system running at stability, and also to get more -- hire more workers to handle the delivery process. And it is -- we're all -- feel you know, bad about, you know, what the -- the dip in our service, the level has been.

We -- we serve 161 million people, we still deliver at 99.5 percent of the time. We have significant efforts to -- to continue to improve on that process and everybody's working here feverishly to -- to get that right.

PORTMAN: Well, I hope -- I hope you will and let's ensure these medications are delivered in time and ensure (ph) that when the production doesn't meet the transportation schedule, as you said earlier, that there is some effort made to align those two, because it's a lifeline for people, you know, all over the country, particularly in our rural areas.

And I thank you for your service and for the answers you've given today.

JOHNSON: Thanks, Senator Portman. Again, I want to just remind our committee members, please keep your questioning as well as -- factor in the answer to try and keep within those seven minutes.

Senator Carper? Is Senator Carper there?

We'll move on to Senator Lankford.

SEN. THOMAS CARPER (D-DE): Am I -- fuck, fuck, fuck.

SEN. JAMES LANKFORD (R-OK): Mr. Chairman, I think Senator Carper is there. I think he's trying to be able to queue it all up right now.

JOHNSON: OK.

Senator Carper, can you unmute?

CARPER: I'm unmuted. Mr. (ph) Chairman (ph)--

JOHNSON: OK, there we go. We don't want to be on TV again.

CARPER: Thanks so much for scheduling this hearing. I urged you to do this three weeks ago, you agreed to do it and I'm grateful that you have.

To the postmaster general, thank you for finally returning my call. I called you for like three weeks, tried to get you to return my call after you had taken office. Thank you for finally returning my call and talking with us last -- last week.

You know, you might be wondering, Mr. DeJoy, why there's some question of skepticism here. I've seen in my own (ph) office on constituent service, we get a constituent services report every week. We've seen our steady upbeat (ph), upgrade, an increase in concerns, complaints about the Postal Service.

And it's not just my office, it's Senate offices and House offices all over the country. And frankly, they coincided with the time that you took office.

Even this morning, I just got a message from Joe Manchin, senator from West Virginia, been (ph) earlier this week in Charleston mail distribution center, talking about (ph) how all this equipment, this sorting equipment has been taken out. He served five states from out of that place. And so it's not just little Delaware, it's all over the country.

Maybe it's just a -- maybe it's just a coincidence, I'm not so sure. But here's why -- here's why we're skeptical. You've got a president who doesn't want to have vote by mail. We've got a president who would like to suppress the vote. We've got a president who would like to see the Postal Service not do well.

I've worked for almost 20 years on this committee to try to make sure we have a vibrant, active, meaningful Postal Service. You come from -- you come from Greensborough, North Carolina--

DEJOY: Yeah.

CARPER: -- just north of -- just south of where I was -- I grew up in Danville, Virginia. We had voter suppression in this country almost from the get-go, even our first great (ph) postmaster general, Benjamin Franklin, said, "No, we're not going to do that, we're going to let everybody have, you know, freedom and the right to choose their own, vote."

It hasn't been that way. Women didn't get to vote, blacks didn't get to vote. We still have voter suppression. The last congressional election they had in North Carolina, you know what it had? Half the people voted for Democratic candidates for Congress. Do you know how many Democrats were elected out of 13 seats? Three.

I mean, we have seen poll taxes, we have seen literacy tests, all of this stuff. And when I see what's going on with a president who wants to degrade the Postal Service, wants to get rid of vote by mail, we shouldn't be surprised that -- that we're alarmed when we see the kind of degraded service that we're seeing across the country.

It wasn't that long ago, we had an overnight mail service in (inaudible) area (ph). It wasn't that long ago, we had, from coast to coast, mail delivered within three days. And we don't have that anymore, so people should be -- if people seem skeptical, they have a right to be skeptical.

I -- I want to -- I want to just -- after the public -- after all that we've seen here in my state and other states about delays and failure to deliver of the mail, you committed to freeze additional operational changes until after the election.

[09:55:00] Good, but we're going to need more information than that, especially given reports that came out last night showing that you and your team are actually considering more extreme changes than those we've seen to date, including changes that will slow down the mail even further, post office and plant closings, massive service reductions to Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, making out more expensive to the residences living there.

(Inaudible) changes that would nearly double the -- the -- the cost for -- for price changes that would double the cost to voting by mail, dramatic price hikes on packages that will disproportionately impact small businesses in the rural communities that rely on the Postal Service, while erasing your competitive advantage over FedEx and UPS.

We need to be worried about this, and I am. I -- I don't ask a lot of yes-or-no questions. I'm going to ask you a couple today, and I'd ask you just give me a simple yes or no answer. You'll have an opportunity in responses for the record to expand on those, but I'm going to ask you for yes or no answers.

Yes or no, are you considering the dramatic service changes that I just outlined, which we've just learned about in the last 48 hours? Are you considering those dramatic service changes? Just yes or no.

DEJOY: Senator, there's a dramatic (inaudible)--

CARPER: I asked -- I'm asking for a yes or no answer.

DEJOY: We're considering -- we're considering (inaudible)--

CARPER: I'm asking for a yes or no answer.

DEJOY: -- dramatic changes to improve the service to the American people, yes.

CARPER: Yes or no, will you restore the mail collection and processing capacity that the Postal Service has lost in recent weeks during your tenure?

DEJOY: Senator, as I said, I did not direct that. I directed it. I stopped it. It's insignificant. It's not material to anything that we do, and I'm -- it's -- we're sticking with the -- where -- where we're at right now.

CARPER: Recently, the president was caught red-handed when he admitted to not wanting the Postal Service to have additional resources because he had -- the -- the Postal Service would use these resources to enable election mail, and when asked about providing necessary relief, the president stated, quote, "If we don't make a deal", that is, a deal with the Congress, "that means they don't get the money", they, meaning the Postal Service.

That means they don't get universal mail-in voting. They just can't have it. No wonder we're somewhat skeptical and -- and -- and dubious. My -- my understanding is you have had more than a passing acquaintance with this president. I understand that you've been a huge supporter financially of the president.

My understanding is when you were going to have a convention in Charlotte -- in Charlotte, North Carolina, you were heavily involved in leading the raising of money for that -- for that convention.

No wonder we're a little bit skeptical about this, when we have a president talking down the Postal Service, talking down vote by mail. Another yes or no, and you can--

DEJOY: (inaudible)--

CARPER: -- expand point on -- expand on your record on this.

DEJOY: (inaudible)--

CARPER: Yes or no, will you remain--

DEJOY: Senator, I'm not (inaudible) political -- political matter.

(CROSSTALK)

DEJOY: -- and support the American people first? Will you? That's -- that's -- services that support the American people having fast, efficient and afford -- affordable mail service, especially with regard to mail-in ballots. Will you make -- remain independent to this administration?

DEJOY: Sir--

CARPER: That's a -- will you remain independent?

DEJOY: Yes, I'm -- will remain independent of the (inaudible)--

CARPER: Thank you very much. Mr. DeJoy, during our call earlier this week, you said that you support additional cash assistance for the Postal Service. So do we. The Postal Service has, as you know, $15 billion of, roughly, cash on hand, and a new billion-dollar line -- a $10 billion line of credit that comes with some very troubling conditions that are dictated by the administration.

The Postal Service has had massive declines in first-class mail. We know that. They averaged 15, 20 percent below last year's first-class mail volume. The Postal Service package volume is higher, though, and normally has sustained it through the pandemic. My guess is those volumes will come down somewhat after the pandemic.

All of this is to say, the Postal Service's $15 billion in cash balance could quickly disappear, and I believe the Post Office needs to approve the vote, the Board of Governor's $15 billion request from earlier this year to cover loss of COVID -- loss to COVID.

Last yes-or-no question: Do you support the federal appropriation to the Postal Service to cover its COVID-related losses? Yes or no, do you support the federal appropriations to the Postal Service to cover its COVID-related losses?

DEJOY: Yes, COVID-related losses, I do support.

CARPER: Thank you very much.

Mr. (inaudible) -- Mr. -- Mr. Postmaster General, my family's had a heavy military involvement throughout our lives. Some have -- last year, a number of veterans (inaudible) serving in the United States. My -- my mother's youngest brother died in a kamikaze attack in 1924 on his aircraft carrier in the Western Pacific.

He gave his life for this country. My grandmother's a gold-star mother. We have -- my father's a -- a veteran. I'm a veteran. We have generation after generation of Americans who have been willing to risk their lives, lay down their lives so we will have the right to vote.

We've got a lot of people who are sick and afraid of going out and voting this year because they don't want to stand in lines and come down with a virus that could take their life. This is a serious matter, and I just want you to urge with us -- urge you to work with us, not be apart from us, not return (inaudible) -- work with us as we attack the need to -- to build the kind of Postal Service that we can all be proud of. Thanks very much.