Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Live: Postal Service Hearing; USPS Chief: "I Did Not Direct" Equipment Removal, Cuts to Hours. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired August 24, 2020 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00]

LOUIS DEJOY, POSTMASTER GENERAL, USPS: I'm sure the staff answered the questions that -- as they were asked.

And let me just for the record clear up: I did not -- that is not a policy change; That is a request that we run our 40,000 trucks a day on schedule, and your -- your intuition is right. My -- you would think that the mail moved faster, and it did. A good portion of it moved faster, right? And we've also -- I was sitting there looking at a report that -- that talked somewhere between $1 billion- and $3 billion-worth of cost wasted on our -- our truck trips being out of schedule. It was an easy request that I -- I -- I spoke with...

MALONEY: Well, my -- my time...

DEJOY: ... every senior executive in the organization about the (inaudible).

MALONEY: My -- my time -- time is limited, and then I'm -- I'm -- I'm concerned why we didn't receive any of this information. And I have to just say that, Mr. DeJoy, we sent our letter two days after you received this briefing and this document. It -- it must've been fresh on your mind. There's absolutely no excuse for concealing it and withholding this information from the committee or from your testimony before the Senate when you were expressly asked questions about the information in the document. And unfortunately, this committee received it from someone else. So Mr. DeJoy, you're withholding information from us, concealing documents and downplaying the damage that you're causing.

So let me close with this: This committee expects a full and complete production of all the documents we requested no later than this coming Wednesday, and if you continue to withhold information or otherwise fail to comply, you can expect a subpoena.

Now, I know many of our members plan to ask about how you intend to fix the problems -- the problems you created -- and reverse these horrible trendlines, so we will get to those questions next.

Without -- with that, I now recognize the distinguished ranking member for five minute -- for -- for his questions. For -- for (inaudible) he -- he's saying that Virginia Foxx will be the first to respond, Virginia Foxx from the great state of North Carolina.

FOXX: Thank you, Madam Chairman. Madam Chairman, I do note that you're -- you're going over time a great deal, but...

Postmaster General DeJoy, thank you very much for being with us today. Some claim the Expedited to Street/Afternoon Sortation pilot and your changes are deliberative efforts to slow down mail and hurt Postal Service employees. Is that true?

DEJOY: No, ma'am.

FOXX: Are you banning employees from train -- charging overtime or are you trying to limit unplanned overtime to ensure the Postal Service's viability?

DEJOY: At this time, no, ma'am, and no time since I've been here.

FOXX: Thank you. Postmaster General DeJoy, as a logistics expert -- and I believe that Representative Walker outlined your expertise very well -- what does the consistent use of unplanned overtime and the need for extra trips mean in terms of the efficiency of operations?

DEJOY: Well, besides costing substantial amounts of money, you know, for the -- for the Postal -- for the Postal Service in terms of billions of dollars, it is also -- does not keep the systems, the delivery system in balance, which also results in late -- delays in mail and in -- in equilibrium in -- in production processes across the whole network.

FOXX: Can more efficient on-time operations result in better delivery performance?

DEJOY: Absolutely.

FOXX: And does unplanned overtime hinder the Postal Service's ability to stay financially viable?

DEJOY: Absolutely.

FOXX: You know, I -- my husband and I have experienced some very, very inefficient services on the part of the Post Office in the last few weeks. I'm not going to go into those details, but I want to applaud your approach to accountability. And what we know from our colleagues on the other side of the aisle is they run away from accountability in every case in the federal government or in allied services like the Post Office. So let me applaud you for pushing on accountability.

Mr. DeJoy, as we're all aware, the post -- Postal Service is not a government agency that receives appropriations; In fact, it is law.

[11:05:00]

The Postal Reorganization Act of 1970 created the U.S. Postal Service as an independent and self-sustaining entity. Postmaster General DeJoy, do you believe that it is your duty to uphold this law and ensure that the USPS is self-sufficient?

DEJOY: I do.

FOXX: And what will it take to make the USPS self-sufficient -- self- sufficient?

DEJOY: Legislation with regard to our health -- healthcare -- Medicaid integration into our pension reform, flexibility from the PRC. We still have to (ph) get a decision from them. We're -- we're in the 14th year of a 10-year analysis. The Postal Service itself is a library of -- of OIG reports identifying flawed practices and billions and billions and billions of dollars of cost waste that this committee -- no -- nobody seems to pay attention to.

And then our Postal Service, our management team itself delivering -- you know, helping fix ourselves both in terms of service and -- and -- and -- and cost. And we have a plan now to do that, and part of it includes running our trucks on time.

FOXX: And -- and these OIG reports have come from Democrat presidents and Republican administrations both, is that correct?

DEJOY: Yes, ma'am.

FOXX: Thank you. If you have no operational flexibility, can you possibly make the Postal Service self-sufficient?

DEJOY: I think we have a very, very good shot. We have some new revenue ideas for the -- for the -- for the Postal Service also. We have it, you know -- we're beginning to finalize the plan. I need to brief for the -- the board. But I'm very, very excited about the management team under our new -- new -- new organizational structure. I'm excited about the -- the -- the dedication of the 650,000 men and women, and I think we are -- can embark upon, with a little help from this Congress, we -- we are about to embark upon some significant, exciting future for the Postal Service. I believe in the six-day delivery. I think the -- the carrier is -- with the carriers, I'll -- postal carriers relationship with the American people is what -- is the most important ingredient in giving us the approval rating that we have and we have plans to -- to really enhance that -- that relationship and to help our growth.

FOXX: Well again, I want to thank you for bringing your expertise to become the Postmaster General of the United States. You have the exact background that we need and the commitment that we need to make the Post Office work the way Americans want it work. Thank you Madam Chairman and Ranking Member, I yield back.

MALONEY: Thank you. I now recognize Congresswoman Norton. Congresswoman Norton, by Webex.

NORTON: Thank you very much Madam Chair. This test -- this hearing is very necessary to clarify matters that were left open when we took the vote already on this bill. So, Mr. DeJoy, in your testimony you suggested that the coronavirus was having, and I think I'm quoting, a significant -- a significant issue in employee availability in many, many parts of the country.

If that's the case, sir, I -- I want to know why you've been reducing overtime? Isn't overtime even -- even more necessary to postal employees during this national emergency, during this pandemic with so many people at home and given what you've already testified to about the significant issue in employee availability across the country?

DEJOY: Thank you.

NORTON: Why wouldn't overtime be necessary to make up for all of that?

DEJOY: Thank you ma'am. I -- on this -- on this, since I've been here we've spent $700 million in overtime. The overtime rate before my arrival was at 13 percent within the organization, it's still at 13%. As I said in my opening statement, this is a continued misinformation regarding what I did since I've gotten there. I have never put a limitation on overtime.

NORTON: Well, that's very important testimony, Mr. DeJoy, because in some states we're seeing 10 times the normal volume of mail.

[11:10:00]

And I'd like to ask about additional resources two weeks before the election, is expanded allowance of overtime one of the items under consideration when you have already announced you will bring, quote, additional resources to bear in two weeks before the elections. Does that include expanded overtime? Indeed, wouldn't it have to?

DEJOY: Yes -- yes, ma'am, it does. We will -- the -- the 650,000 men and woman of the Postal Service are very committed to -- to having a successful election for -- and our role in the election. Overtime, and extra truck trips, postal inspection checks, round -- rounds -- and you know -- in each postal processing facility.

NORTON: (Inaudible) that's very important -- that's very important, for the record, that expanded overtime will be allowed in the two weeks before the election. My -- my next question is on a -- a -- on a PMG (ph), Postal Service document we have received.

This is what it what is said and why my questions were necessary. I'm quoting now the document entitled PMG Expectations and Plan. Overtime will be eliminated. There you can see it before you. Again, we are paying too much for overtime, and it is not cost-effective, and soon will be taken off the table. More to come on this." We -- we asked your general counsel, and he claimed that that came from a mid-level manager and should not be treated as an official statement of Postal Office policy. So I ask you, would a postal manager send this document without some kind of word from you or from the top of the agency? And -- and can you explain who this was, and what -- give us an idea (inaudible)...

DEJOY: I -- I have -- thank you. I have purposely not tried to find out who that was. But there are many ways that people interpret...

NORTON:: You have tried not to find out who that was?

DEJOY: That's right. I don't know -- that was not a directive from me. That -- there is six -- there is 50,000 managers within the organization. This is one of the reasons I changed the organization quickly after the rollout of the -- the -- the truck -- the truck schedule. There was -- very, very confusing. NORTON: So are you looking for (inaudible) or whoever -- are you looking for whoever it was who jumped ahead of you in -- in -- in issuing that to all your managers -- all your employees?

DEJOY: Absolutely. We...

NORTON: I wish you would give that name when you find it to the chair, as -- as -- as well.

In -- in a statement on August 18th you stated overtime has and will continue to be improved -- approved as needed. I wanted to understand as needed, what that means. And postal managers and employees continue approving and using overtime as they did before your tenure began, or are there any changes since you took office?

DEJOY: Same as from prior to me being here.

NORTON: Have you issued any internal guidance to that effect, and would you provide it to us, please?

DEJOY: I'm sorry. I didn't hear the question.

NORTON: I asked, have you issued any internal guidance to that effect, that the employees continue to approving -- can continue to approve and use overtime?

DEJOY: I never issued a guidance against that effect, but did everybody -- the -- the organization...

NORTON: We're asking, are you intending to issue any guidance to the effect (inaudible)...

DEJOY: Yes, I've told the executive team, the operations team. They -- they know there is no -- there is no different process...

(UNKNOWN): Madam Chair?

DEJOY: ... than prior to my arrival.

MALONEY: OK, the gentlewoman's time is completed. You may...

LAWRENCE: Well, Madam Chair, can I just ask that he provide us -- or, provide you any written guidance on overtime?

MALONEY: OK.

(UNKNOWN): Time.

NORTON: ... (inaudible) committee.

MALONEY: I -- I -- I make that request on behalf of the committee.

I now recognized Mr. Gosar, Congressman Gosar.

GOSAR: Yeah, can you hear me and see me?

MALONEY: Yes, we can.

GOSAR: OK, thank you.

MALONEY: We can hear you (inaudible)...

GOSAR: Mr. DeJoy...

MALONEY: There. There you are.

GOSAR: OK. Mr. DeJoy, thank you very much for coming today, and I want to clear up some obvious political disinformation that the majority is actually putting out. So -- and then I also want to say thank you very much for acknowledgment of the dip in services. But we'll get to that in a few minutes.

[11:15:00]

On Saturday on the -- on the House floor, my colleagues said the Post Office is on the verge of collapse, but that's not true. You have over $10 billion cash on hand and access to a $10 billion line of credit, which makes you fiscally viable through August of 2021. Is that true, Mr. DeJoy?

DEJOY: Yes, but I would say that only in Washington, D.C. would that be a good position to be in, when I have $135 billion in liabilities, a $2.5 billion-a-month -- a-week -- biweekly payroll, and a whole bunch of others. But yes, we can get through -- through the election, and with the -- with the loan, should we -- should we -- should we take it. I don't know how we would pay it back, but should we take it, we should be fine for -- through mid- -- mid-'21.

GOSAR: So now isn't it true that you're actually generating more revenue at this time of the year than you also did last year, and you're processing more -- successfully processed an uptick in mass- mailed government items such as the stimulus checks and the questions about -- the census questionnaire ballots? Is that true?

DEJOY: We're seeing more revenue mostly due to package increase. Mail products are down 15 percent or -- if -- or so, on average. But package -- package volume is up substantially, but package volume is very costly for us to handle in -- in -- in overcapacity method.

GOSAR: So now, do you believe that the money on hand, successful (inaudible) seeing that you said the mail volume is down by 15 percent and the hard work of the over 600,000 postal workers, that you can handle the slight election increases that you'll -- we will possibly see?

DEJOY: I -- I will be very, very clear that the 650,000 men and women, we are working with our union leadership, our management team, our employees. We will be able to handle all election mail for the 2020 election.

GOSAR: So now, I want to go back to this slowdown in -- related to the pandemic. I want to highlight that this week, the president of the Phoenix Postal Workers Union stated that it was suffering from these pandemic workforce strains; that no processing machines have been removed during your tenure, and that the United States Postal Service processed over 700,000 ballots in our recent primary election. Let me ask you a question, Mr. DeJoy: Have you had slowdowns or impediments like in Seattle and Portland and New -- and New York City and Chicago because of the rioting and the -- the anarchy that's going on?

DEJOY: Well, sir, I mean, any kind of rioting does produce delays with any -- any type of public service, so I -- I don't have a specific measurement on that. But I will -- I will say this: that as the coronavirus cases throughout the country have -- have expanded, it has had an impact on our employee availability, and in the -- the urban areas that are hotspots, our -- you know, the averages don't play out with the real pictures like in areas like Philadelphia, where employee availability is significantly below normal run rates, and what it has been in the pandemic. We actually peaked -- started to peak in terms of employee availability issues in -- in the July -- July timeframe.

GOSAR: Now, I want to go back to, you paused any policy changes to the Postal Service such as the elimination of overtime, prohibiting extra trips, hiring freezes and removing sorting machines. Is that true?

DEJOY: The extra trips, they weren't prohibited. We -- it's true on everything else but the extra trips. My direction was we need to work on getting our trucks on schedule and mitigating our extra trips. We still run 700, 800 extra trips a day, and we still have thousands of truck -- truck trips that run late. So it wasn't a flat directive; it was work to our plan. That was my directive. Come up with a plan to work through our plan. So the management team put the plan together and executed on the plan, and -- but everything else I had nothing to do with. It was a long-standing plan on collection boxes and sorting machines postal hours. That was way -- that was ongoing really in the areas that we're taking care of that.

GOSAR: So, another quick question, is the Pony Express still available today?

DEJOY: I've been here 70 days, sir. I'm searching for a good -- I haven't seen that yet though. So, I think it's gone.

[11:20:00]

GOSAR: I'm a little under technology as it changes and any transfer of new ideas, it can always go smoothly, doesn't it, Mr. DeJoy?

DEJOY: I'm sorry?

GOSAR: A transition where you're trying to make changes always go smoothly, doesn't it?

MALONEY: The gentleman's time has expired but you may answer his question.

DEJOY: Transitions don't always go smoothly. You should have a recovery process. Our recovery processes is taking too long. This should have been resolved in a couple -- in a few days and it's not. So, the impact, there's a lot of reasons that are -- there are a lot of things that are impacting our service. This is one of whom I'm on the front end and we should have cleared it up quicker and I think we have to focus on it now and will recover it quite rapidly going forward.

MALONEY: Thank you. Thank you.

The Chair now recognizes...

GOSAR: Yes. I do see it doesn't change.

MALONEY: ... Mr. Clay. Congressman Clay.

CLAY: Thank you for conducting this hearing. Thank you, Madam Chair, for conducting this hearing.

MALONEY: OK.

CLAY: Mr. DeJoy, one of the most damaging results of your actions is the reports we have heard over and over again from people and families across the country who are not getting their mail-in medications on time and it's heartbreaking.

The Postal Service delivers hundreds of millions of prescriptions for shipments each year that is millions of shipments per day six days a week of vital...

(AUDIO GAP)

MALONEY: We're having a technical problem right now with Mr. Clay. We can't hear you. It's breaking up. Should we go to someone else and go back? OK. Mr. Clay, we're going to try to correct -- there's a problem. We can't hear you. We're going to hold your testimony...

CLAY: ... to our vulnerable populations.

MALONEY: Should we go for it or not? OK.

CLAY: This problem is badly (ph) aggravated during the coronavirus crisis because mail order.

COMER: Madam Chair, for the sake of time, let's move on.

MALONEY: OK. Mr. Clay, we're going to hold up on you and go to Mr. Lynch and then go to our Republican and come back to you. We have technical difficulties.

Mr. Lynch, Congressman Lynch, you are now recognized.

LYNCH: Thank you, Madam Chair.

MALONEY: Thank you.

LYNCH: Thank you, Mr. DeJoy for attending. Mr. DeJoy, you've been the postmaster general of the United States for a couple of months right now?

DEJOY: 70 days.

LYNCH: 70 days. OK. So, I've been a member of this committee for about 20 years and since my mom and two of my sisters, a bunch of my aunts, cousins, my in-laws, all work at the post office, some of them are retired, some of them are still there.

As a member of Congress, you might say I've been compelled to take a keen interest on matters affecting the Postal Service. I'm also former president of the iron workers union in Boston. So, you can get a sense of my perspective. It's a blue-collar, common sense, get-your-work- done sort of perspective.

So, Mr. DeJoy, as the postmaster for the United States of America for the last 70 days, did you know that the Postal Service has never allowed itself to be in the situation that is in today?

Throughout the Postal Service history, there has been a tradition of reliable delivery from the very beginning, Article 1, Section 8, Clause 7 of the United States Constitution. Going back to Ben Franklin, our first postmaster general, the Pony Express has been mentioned before.

I was actually watching a Ken Burns special last week and he had these heart-wrenching letters that were back and forth from soldiers during the Civil War. So, even at a moment when the country was at war with itself, the mail was delivered.

During the First World War and the Spanish flu influenza of 1918 to the Great Depression, millions of people out of work, a thousand bank failures, the mail was delivered on time. Even during the Second World War with the threat of Nazi U-boats, international mail was delivered on time.

[11:25:00]

Just so happened, I was elected on 9/11, the day of the terrorist attacks on our nation, a god-awful day. Some people forget, in the days after 9/11, we had direct anthrax attacks on the United States Postal Service. We lost two brave postal workers, Joseph Curseen an Tom Morris down at the Brentwood facility here in D.C. from anthrax inhalation.

But for the good of the country, the postal unions continued to send their members into the post office to do their job to keep the country running. So, two weeks ago, after you'd been postmaster for just a few weeks, that all changed.

In the middle of a pandemic that has killed 170,000 Americans and on the eve of a national election at a time when the CDC is advising people not to gather, limit outside contact, the Postal Service data removing 671 high-speed mail sorting machines across the country.

You stopped the APWU from sorting the mail and you stopped the National Letter Carriers, the mail handlers for working overtime to deliver the mail. And for the first time in 240 years in our history of the United States Postal Service, you sent our a letter embarrassingly to -- in July to 46 states that said, the Post Office can't guarantee that we can deliver the mail in time for the elections in November.

And we have reports from across the country, as you acknowledged, service has been delayed in the mail is piling up. You have and then a once proud tradition.

Now, as a member of the Oversight Committee, we have a chief investigative committee in the Congress. We conduct oversight on every matter that impacts the American people, foreign and domestic.

There are members on this Committee who have been to Iraq and Afghanistan a couple dozen times. They've been at Yemen, Somalia, Gaza, you name it. They literally go to the ends of the earth to investigate matters that affect the American people, especially when it involves our sons and daughters in uniform.

In this moment, it is our postal workers who happen to be our men and women in uniforms. They are on the front lines of this pandemic. Throughout this pandemic, they've risked their own health and safety to deliver or try to deliver mail, medicines and mail-in ballots to every American home and business six days a week.

As a member of this August committee, I'm supposed to ask you a question. In my heart, I'm tempted to ask after 240 years of patriotic service delivering the mail, how can one person screw this up in just a few weeks.

Now, I understand you bring private sector expertise. I guess we could find the government worker who could screw it up this fast. It would take them a while.

The president is running this post office like a business like he said. He's running it into the ground as he has declared bankruptcy a few times on his own businesses. And then never to apply the facts, the real facts, not the alternative facts based on what you have actually done, one can only reach -- as a fact finder, we can only reach two conclusions.

One, either through gross incompetence you abandoned the 240-year history of delivering the mail reliably on time or the second conclusion that we could gather is that you're doing this on purpose and that you deliberately dismantling this once proud tradition.

MALONEY: The gentleman's time has expired. The gentleman may answer his question.

LYNCH: My last question is this, what the heck are you doing? What the heck are you doing? That's my question.

MALONEY: The gentleman's times has expired. The gentleman's times has expired. The gentleman may answer.

DEJOY: Thank you, sir. First of all, I would like to agree with you on the heroic efforts of all 650,000 employees across the nation and the history of the Postal Service for their -- the 250-year history of serving the American public and I'm very proud...

LYNCH: Will you put the machine back?

DEJOY: I'm very -- I'm very proud to lead the organization. The rest of your accusations actually...

LYNCH: Will you put those...

DEJOY: Actually outrageous.

DEJOY: Will you put the high-speed machines back?

DEJOY: No. I will not.

LYNCH: You will not?

DEJOY: Will not.

LYNCH: You will not. Well, there you go.

DEJOY: There you go what? Those machines...

(CROSSTALK)

MALONEY: Order. Order. Order. Order. Order. The gentleman may answer the question without being interrupted. And the question is will you put the machines back?

DEJOY: The answer is no. And every accusation you made other than the truck -- adhere to the truck schedule is inaccurate and more misinformation for the American public.

LYNCH: You won't put the machines back though.

DEJOY: I will not...

LYNCH: You took them out. They're high-speed machine...

(CROSSTALK)

COMER: Madam Chair. Madam Chair.

MALONEY: Mr. Jordan is now recognized. Congressman Jordan? Is he here? Congressman Jordan.

COMER: No. I believe that's not the order.

MALONEY: What? No. It's Palmer. Congressman Palmer. I'm getting different signs up here who's -- why don't we go back to the old way that you write it down because it keeps changing. OK.

Congressman Palmer is now recognized.

PALMER: I thank the Chairman and I just want to point out a "Washington Post" article from August 26, 2015, almost five years to today, that there was a decline in first class letter delivery of 18 to 44 percent and a 38 percent decline in the performance over the same time in 2014.

[11:30:00]