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First COVID-19 Reinfection Case Confirmed in Hong Kong; Interview with Scripps Research Institute Executive Vice President as White House Proposes Skipping Phase Three Vaccine Trials; RNC to Not Release Party Platform for 2020 Campaign. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired August 24, 2020 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The long-term effects of the poisoning, say Navalny's doctors, are still uncertain -- Anderson.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, NEWSROOM: Matthew Chance, thank you.

It's the top of the hour, I'm Anderson Cooper. Some positive signs in the nation's fight against the coronavirus, new confirmed cases now at their lowest level in two months with just over 34,000 reported on Sunday. Nearly four out of five states either holding steady or showing a decline when compared to a week ago. The average number of deaths, falling below 1,000 per day, the first time that has happened in 26 days.

And today in a joint statement, the World Health Organization and UNICEF are announcing that children age five and under should not be made to wear masks, saying the evidence shows they are less susceptible to the virus and less likely to spread it to others. That as students at some of the nation's U.S. colleges and universities could face stricter punishments including suspension and expulsions as officials try to stop spread.

There's breaking news from Hong Kong, where preliminary research shows the first confirmed case of a human being re-infected with coronavirus. Elizabeth Cohen, CNN's senior medical correspondent; Dr. Jake Deutsch is an emergency medicine physician. They both join us now.

Elizabeth, what do we know about this person?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. So, Anderson, let's take a look at what happened with this gentleman. This is a 33-year-old in Hong Kong. He tested positive for COVID-19 on March 26th, and then tested positive again on August 15th. But these details are really what matters in some ways even more than that. In March he was sick with fever, cough, headache, sore throat for three days. In August, he was asymptomatic.

The infectious disease experts who I talked to say that that shows that the first infection -- now, this is only one person of course -- but it shows that the first infection may have protected him, and that's why he was asymptomatic. Obviously, we'd prefer that people not get re-infected. He might be infectious and infect someone else the second time around.

But it is certainly good news for the vaccine that his case turned out this way, because vaccines usually mimic what happens in real life. And so if it means that you get a vaccine or you could get re-infected but you wouldn't be sick, that would be great news -- Anderson.

COOPER: So, Dr. Deutsch, you know, for months we've been talking about you know, does one have immunity when you have antibodies if you've been sick? Are you immune, and if so for how long, how long does it last? Is -- does immunity actually mean you don't get re-infected or you just -- if you get re-infected, does this tell us that immunity means if you get re-infected it may not impact you in the same way, it won't be as difficult for you?

JAKE DEUTSCH, EMERGENCY MEDICINE PHYSICIAN: Yes. I mean, this is the question that everybody has on their mind, especially the 42 million people who have been infected by this virus. You know, really, can you get it again?

So in theory when you have immunity, that means that you can't get infected during that period of immunity. But how long does that immunity last? There's been speculation that it could be several months; it could be longer, like other SARS virus or the MERS virus, similar to the coronavirus.

So that's what we're trying to understand here. But there's a couple of other questions, which I have in this situation. Number one, how are they able to keep this patient's information and sequence this virus again? I mean, think that that's really interesting. And certainly we don't have the capacity for most patients to do that.

And secondly, did he have immunity the first go-around? I mean, we think that most people have a robust immune response, meaning they make antibodies. But what's not clear here is, did this gentleman actually have an immune response that would have protected him? Or was he an outlier?

So I don't think we have a hundred percent of the answer, but when you look at the global implications, you're talking about one in millions. This is really something that's insignificant until we start to see a greater percentage of similar cases.

COOPER: And Dr. Deutsch, with flu season upon us, how much of a threat is reinfections to the nation's emergency rooms and hospitals? I mean, they were under immense strain at the height of the pandemic. I guess really with flu season, you know, the concern is you present to an emergency room and how do you know and how do the doctors know if it's flu or if it's coronavirus?

DEUTSCH: Well luckily, we do have rapid flu tests, which allow us to identify flu pretty quick. But that is going to be probably the biggest concern as we head into the cold and flu season, is this something that I need to go to the hospital and get checked for? Or is this something that I can manage on my own, as we do typically with flu? And everybody's on edge.

So the biggest advice here is get a flu vaccination. They're available now. That should be something that everybody takes care of immediately to prevent that uncertainty, just to have one less thing to worry about.

COOPER: All right. Dr. Jake Deutsch, Elizabeth Cohen, thanks so much, appreciate it.

Sources say the White House has raised the possibility of fast- tracking an experimental vaccine before it goes to phase three trials. the topic reportedly came up in a meeting with Democratic leaders and Chief of Staff Mark Meadows and Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin.

[14:05:00]

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who was in the meeting, warned against cutting corners. The administration has denied any plans to fast-track a vaccine before the election for political purposes.

The news follows on the heels of the FDA's emergency authorization for use of plasma from recovered patients.

Dr. Eric Topol is a cardiologist and executive vice president of Scripps Research Institute. Dr. Topol, thanks for being with us. To the idea of skipping phase three trials of a vaccine? How dangerous is that?

ERIC TOPOL, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, SCRIPPS RESEARCH INSTITUTE: It's quite dangerous, Anderson. Unfortunately now, the problem with the vaccine, it magnifies just what happened with the convalescent plasma yesterday. But here, you're talking about very serious issues of safety, lack of efficacy. We need to have those trials complete for the vaccine before we start inoculating millions of people.

COOPER: Explain that. I mean, if it's already gone through phase one, if it's already gone through phase two and it seems to work, given the emergency nature of what's going on, why is phase three so important?

TOPOL: Well, we don't know it works yet, all we know is that it produces an antibody response. And in some studies, some of the vaccines, a T-cell response. But in order to know it works, it needs to show that people who get the vaccine can't get infected.

And in addition, the issue is that when you start to have a vaccine that produces antibodies, there can be untoward results such as an antibody-dependent enhancement, or even an immune complex disease. So there are adverse reactions of any vaccine that have to be considered.

COOPER: The fear also is if it turns out -- you know, if there is an emergency use authorization and it's pushed out and people start to get the vaccine, it certainly adds to the doubters about vaccines -- and already, a high percentage of people say that they wouldn't necessarily get a COVID vaccine.

TOPOL: Right. We have a big problem because the polls, surveys of people show about a third are afraid to have a vaccine or just won't have it, and this is just going to add because a lack of credibility of the FDA standing for the evidence and data -- as evidenced yesterday with the plasma story -- will just undermine the credibility that we would want for a vaccine when it's indeed shown to be safe and effective.

COOPER: So let's talk about what happened yesterday, the announcement of the emergency authorization for the use of plasma from recovered patients. Previously, a couple days before, the FDA said that that was not going to happen. The president tweeted, suggesting, you know, it's deep-state actors within the FDA trying to hold this up for political reasons. And then all of a sudden he announces last night, it's been approved?

TOPOL: Right. Yes, so this preprint that was published by Mayo Clinic and collaborating researchers back, earlier in the month, that was deemed as the reason for this emergency use authorization. But when it was reviewed last week by Tony Fauci and Francis Collins, the NIH director, they appropriately felt that the evidence did not support any emergency use authorization. Moreover, Anderson, it doesn't show any improvement of survival by any reasonable criteria.

This is a preprint of an observational study, it's exploratory and the conclusion of the 35-per-hundred people saved is preposterous. Even if it was all there with a randomized study -- which it isn't -- the best it would be is three, four or five people. So this was just completely out of bounds.

COOPER: And dangerous if it's a precedent of pressuring the FDA, you're saying what's going to happen next time around with a vaccine, with -- there's political pressure, you know, if -- before the election? You're saying if the FDA is willing to bend on the plasma, what will happen with a vaccine?

TOPOL: Yes. The caving of the FDA commissioner, Stephen Hahn, to this willingness (ph) to declare the survival improvement -- and emphasizing it during the press conference, and having all the wrong numbers, no less inadequate evidence to support any of it? This is really worrisome.

You know, I've worked with the FDA over decades now, I have never seen anything like this, Anderson. That is, an FDA commissioner who would basically take not just flimsy data, but no evidence of survival benefit. There is no randomized trial to support that. And the only thing that even gets to this 35 percent -- that's a relative reduction -- is going through subgroups of subgroups of exploratory data, torturing. This isn't right.

[14:10:01]

COOPER: Wow. That's more alarming than I had realized. Dr. Topol, I appreciate talking to you. Thank you.

TOPOL: Sure.

COOPER: Wasting no time, President Trump hits the stage in Charlotte, North Carolina after being formally nominated for re-election.

Plus, the Republican Party will not issue a platform -- something they pretty much do every convention, all parties do -- essentially saying, whatever the president wants to do, they're fine with that. The question is, what does he actually want to do?

In the meantime on Capitol Hill, the postmaster general denies sabotaging the Postal Service in the lead-up to the election. See what happened during his testimony.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: President Trump has now been formally nominated to lead the party for another four years. He spoke as the Republican National Convention kicked off today in Charlotte, North Carolina. His remarks, which were riddled with many false claims, took place about an hour and a half ago. He did, however, express the importance of the 2020 election.

[14:15:15]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is the most important election in the history of our country. This is the most -- you know? For -- for a long period of time.

(APPLAUSE)

I would say, well, 2016, how special was that evening? Was that one of the great -- that was one of the great evenings. But we have to be very, very careful and we have to win. Our country is counting on it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: CNN has learned that the Republican National Committee will not release a new platform during the convention this week; it will instead support President Trump's agenda.

The Trump campaign did release a second-term agenda, if the president is re-elected. This is the first specific list of second-term agenda items the president has offered to date. Some of the goals are vague, many mirrored what he promised to do in his first term: ten million jobs in 10 months, create a million new small businesses, vaccine by end of 2020, return to normal in 2021. The campaign, putting into writing what the president has struggled to articulate on multiple occasions.

Here to discuss, CNN political commentator Mike Shields. He's the former chief of staff of the RNC under Reince Priebus. The idea of -- I mean, people always make fun of the party platform because it's sort of, you know, who actually reads the party platform? But you know, normally there is a party platform. What do you make of them deciding not to do it this time?

MIKE SHIELDS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. You know, this was really a logistical issue. People don't realize the conventions are actually two weeks, and we watch the second week when all the speeches are on TV.

But the week before that, there's a lot of party business that gets done every four years. There's a rules, resolutions and there are committee meetings for a platform, and then that platform comes forward and is voted on.

But with the pandemic, with, you know, restrictions, the RNC chair Ronna McDaniel made the very wise decision that there just weren't going to be enough delegates in Charlotte last week in a way that they could debate a new platform. There is a rule that allows for it in the RNC, where the RNC members can just say, well, let's just move forward the 2016 platform.

And really, that's a wise choice because in the end, the platforms get passed and then the candidates come out and say what it is that they want to say anyway, and they talk about their agenda anyway. So I think it was a smart move logistically, and then the president put out what is actually his agenda yesterday.

COOPER: Doesn't it though raise -- you know, for a president who twice in interviews recently has been given the opportunity to explain, you know, why he wants to be re-elected, what his priorities are, he hasn't -- in two interviews, he's kind of, you know, hasn't done a great job of really actually being able to enunciate anything. I mean, his health care plan, which he keeps saying there is one, has yet to be -- I mean, it's yet to appear.

SHIELDS: Yes. Look, I think they addressed that.

And I think it was a huge contrast between the Democratic convention and the Republican convention. The Democratic convention had basically no issues. The Democratic convention was, you should like Joe Biden, he has empathy. We really don't like Donald Trump. We're not really talking to the voters that cost us the election in 2016 at all.

And the contrast you're going to see is Donald Trump talking about the things that he stands for, lots of speakers talking about his second- term agenda. It's going to be much more policy-heavy.

I don't think Democrats want to get into a policy debate, they want to make it about personality, they have the whole four years of the president's term and they don't want to get into things like Biden raising taxes, the Green New Deal, hurting manufacturing jobs. So they sort of avoided a policy debate, and I think you'll see Republicans lean in on a policy debate this week.

COOPER: Do you really believe though that this is going to be sort of a policy-heavy convention? We just heard the president speak and, you know, it was basically a rerun of all his most recent, you know, greatest hits of I mean, just kind of saying about attacking mail-in voting, attacking the you know, the credibility of the postal services, the mail-in voting, you know, claiming that if it's universal mail-in voting that they'll only send it to Democrats, they won't sent it to Republicans. I mean, there are a lot of falsehoods in there. It doesn't seem like

if that is the trajectory, the tone he's going to be having throughout this thing, it doesn't seem like it's going to be very policy-heavy, it's more going to be just scorched earth against the Democrats and talking about him as the law and order president, no?

SHIELDS: Well, he was speaking to the delegates there, and I think the programming this week -- at least what the campaign has said -- is that it will be focused on what his second-term agenda is. They just released it yesterday, it's -- I mean, it's a lengthy list. Everyone should go look it up and see the things that he stands for and that he wants to do, specifically on jobs.

I mean, manufacturing jobs in particular is a huge contrast with Joe Biden on that. I mean, when Joe Biden was nominated, I was actually a little concerned as a Republican because I thought he was one of the few Democrats that could actually try to win over the voters that cost Hillary Clinton the election.

[14:20:01]

And then we watched their convention, and they just ignored it. They didn't talk about it, they had Hollywood people on there. I think you're going to see a lot of focus on those types of voters and policy specifically for those voters, talked about this week at the Republican convention.

COOPER: We'll see. Mike Shields, appreciate it. Thanks very much.

SHIELDS: Thank you.

COOPER: As President Trump attacks mail-in voting, his donor and postmaster general appointee Louis DeJoy is on Capitol Hill saying the attacks are, quote, "not helpful." Senator Bernie Sanders will join us, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:25:11]

COOPER: For the second time in less than a week, the postmaster general is back testifying under oath. Today, Louis DeJoy is facing a tough grilling from lawmakers in the House. He's being questioned about changes to the Postal Service since taking over in June, the slowed-down mail delivery across the country.

Democrats are especially worried that his cost-cutting measures will threaten voting by mail for this year's election. DeJoy, who is a major donor to the Republican Party and the Trump campaign, is pledging to hold off on changes until after November's election, though changes have already taken place.

Admitted today he reached out to the Trump campaign associates to urge them to stop attacking mail-in voting. He also defended the changes, and denied they were politically motivated. Many Democrats remain skeptical of DeJoy's motives. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOUIS DEJOY, POSTMASTER GENERAL, UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE: I want to begin by assuring this committee and the American public that the Postal Service is fully capable and committed to delivering the nation's ballots securely and on time. This sacred duty is my number one priority between now and Election Day.

REP. CAROLYN MALONEY (D-NY): According to this document, these delays are not just a dip. This document warns the postmaster general of significant and widespread drops across the board in first-class, marketing, periodicals and other categories.

This document shows that these delays are not a myth or conspiracy theory, as some of my colleagues have argued. These steep declines did not start in April or May, when the (INAUDIBLE) came on board and began making his changes.

DEJOY: We are very concerned with the deterioration in service and are working very diligently. In fact, we're seeing a big recovery this week.

And in fact that report, oddly, I requested that report be put together. Oddly enough, we didn't have measurement briefings at an executive level like this before my arrival, where the whole executive team was involved in looking at what the underlying circumstances were. And we're focused on fixing it. We've seen a nice -- we're starting to see a nice recovery.

REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): Is the postmaster general sabotaging the election by removing blue postal boxes and mail sorting machines? No, the Postal Service has more than adequate capacity to handle the vote by mail. If everybody in the U.S. requests and sends their ballots via mail, that's still less than one day's average volume.

REP. GERALD CONNOLLY (D-VA): Did you not tell the Board of Governors this month, in August, that in fact you have had contact with the Trump campaign to ask them to stop their attacks on the Postal Service and voting by mail?

DEJOY: I have put word around to different people that this is not helpful to --

CONNOLLY: So you did have contact with the Trump campaign? For a good purpose? But you did --

(LAUGHTER)

DEJOY: INAUDIBLE) think of where -- if the Trump -- when you say the Trump campaign, I have not spoken to Trump campaign leadership in that regard. I've spoken to people that I'm -- that are friends of mine that -- who are associated with the campaign, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Joined now by Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, he's a former Democratic presidential candidate. Senator, what do you make of Postmaster DeJoy? I mean, he says he didn't speak to the Trump campaign, he told the Senate last week. Now, he says well he's speaking to friends, and that there's recovery happening this week with all the delays. But the recovery is based on -- they're recovering from his own actions.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Look, Anderson, I think the best indication of what's happening is to listen to what Donald Trump said a couple of weeks ago, he said it. And what he said is that he wants to cut funding for the Postal Service, he wants to sabotage -- he basically said that he wants to make it harder for people to cast mail-in ballots, that's what he said.

So if that is what the president of the United States says, I kind of think that that is the policy that his pal, a major campaign contributor, is pursuing.

But I would say, Anderson, that just a few hours ago, at the Republican National Convention, Trump said -- and I think it's important that we all take a deep breath and hear what he said. He said -- and I quote -- "the only way they can take this election away from us is a rigged election," end of quote. Donald Trump. That's what Trump just said, and he's said that before.

[14:30:01]

What does that mean?