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Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin Testified Before House Today; Dr. Scott Atlas Denies Advocating for Herd Immunity in U.S.; Interview with Former Maine CDC Director Dora Anne Mills; Interview with Rep. Mark Pocan (D-WI). Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired September 01, 2020 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Michael Smerconish, who just interviewed the president's new and controversial task force advisor, who administration officials say is pushing for herd immunity, a strategy that would cost millions of American lives. Hear what Dr. Scott Atlas said.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: It's the top of the hour, I'm Brianna Keilar and thank you for joining me. We are beginning with breaking developments in the pandemic.

The White House Task Force has just issued a warning to the state of Iowa about the rise in new cases in that state. It ranks first in the nation for most new infections per 100,000 people, and the Task Force is now calling for a mask mandate in Iowa, as well as the closing of all bars and a plan from universities there.

Iowa's warning, coming in the wake of new documents out of the White House that show the extent to which the president has been lying to Americans about the coronavirus.

The House Subcommittee on Coronavirus just released eight weeks' worth of state reports compiled by the White House Task Force, and this data shows that while the president was painting a positive picture of the crisis, an optimistic picture, urging states and schools to reopen, he was receiving increasingly dire reports from the Task Force about the virus' spread in July and August.

Today, the nation's top infectious disease expert, also debunking another claim by the president. Dr. Anthony Fauci, responding to the president's retweet of an article by a QAnon conspiracy theorist who wrongly asserted that the death toll from coronavirus is much lower than official numbers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: The point that the CDC was trying to make was that a certain percentage of them had nothing else but just COVID. That does not mean that someone who has hypertension or diabetes who dies of COVID didn't die of COVID-19.

They did, so the numbers that you've been hearing, the 180,000-plus deaths, are real deaths from COVID-19. Let there not be any confusion about that, it's not 9,000 deaths from COVID-19, it's 180-plus- thousand deaths.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: And right now, Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin, testifying before a House subcommittee investigating the federal response to the coronavirus pandemic. This comes as Republicans and Democrats stand at an impasse over a new stimulus package. The secretary, talking about the administration's response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVEN MNUCHIN, SECRETARY OF TREASURY: I believe a bipartisan agreement still should be reached, and would provide substantial funds for schools, testing, vaccines, PPP for small businesses, continued enhanced unemployment benefits, child care, nutrition, agriculture, and the U.S. Postal Service along with liability protection for universities, schools and business.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: I want to bring in CNN congressional correspondent Sunlen Serfaty for us from Capitol Hill. So, Sunlen, this is mainly a Democratic-driven effort. What do they want to know?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brianna, this hearing so far that's still ongoing is really underscoring the frustration on the part of Democrats over the status of these talks, the fact that, frankly, they are still at a complete standstill, they are still miles apart.

And it's really underscoring, again, that very little progress has been done when you're talking about the negotiations between Democrats on Capitol Hill and the administration over the next round of this coronavirus stimulus.

Now, Steve Mnuchin of course, the Treasury secretary, is one of the two leading negotiators, so of course Democrats at the hearing this morning, really drilling down on the status of new negotiations, many warning that this is only going to get worse, the pain that Americans are feeling, if Congress does not pass something and pass something fast.

Here's the chairman of that committee just a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC): Republicans rejected the bill. When the House offered to meet them in the middle with a compromised proposal, Republicans rejected that too. Instead, the president offered a fake solution: executive orders that give the appearance of action, but were clearly insufficient to address the economic peril Americans face.

[14:05:24]

Secretary Mnuchin, I hope you will return to the negotiating table prepared to find common cause on legislation that meets the pressing needs of America's families and communities that are hurting from this crisis.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERFATY: Now, the Treasury secretary did say later on that he was prepared and is prepared to sit down with the speaker of the House at any point if she wants to restart negotiations.

Notably, Speaker Pelosi did have a phone call with the White House chief of staff, also negotiating this last week, and absolutely nothing came from that phone call. And the speaker's office, they have been very clear that they need Republicans to come up in price, that price tag is a big sticking point as well as money for state and local government.

So again, all of this, Brianna, just underscoring that things on Capitol Hill are still very much at a stalemate, at an impasse over the next phase of this stimulus -- Brianna.

KEILAR: All right. Sunlen, it is lovely to see you. Sunlen Serfaty on Capitol Hill, thank you.

The president's new coronavirus advisor is pushing back on reports that he is advocating the controversial herd immunity strategy to fight the pandemic. That is the idea that the U.S. should let people become infected in order for survivors to build immunity.

The "Washington Post" first reported that Dr. Scott Atlas had been arguing internally for that approach, which public health experts say could lead to 2 million deaths -- more than 2 million deaths, actually -- and would not actually guarantee immunity.

Dr. Atlas told CNN's Michael Smerconish on his radio show today that the media is lying about him.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

SCOTT ATLAS, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS ADVISOR (via telephone): There's never been any advocacy of a herd immunity strategy coming from me to the president, to anyone in the administration, to the task force, to anyone I've spoken to.

The president does not have a strategy advocating herd immunity. The task force does not have a strategy advocating herd immunity. There is no change in any kind of strategy that I've seen. I mean, the whole thing is an overt lie.

MICHAEL SMERCONISH CNN HOST (via telephone): Quote, "He has advocated that the United States adopt the model Sweden has used to respond to the virus outbreak. True or false? ATLAS (via telephone): False.

SMERCONISH (via telephone): You've not -- I mean, have you discussed to any extent the concept of herd immunity?

ATLAS (via telephone): Well, I've explained what immunity and what the recent immunology literature shows, but I've never advocated doing what Sweden did or what anyone else did.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

KEILAR: However, Dr. Atlas did mention herd immunity in an op-ed that he wrote for "The Hill" back in April. He said in part, quote, "infected people without severe illness are the immediately available vehicle for establishing widespread immunity. By transmitting the virus to others in the low-risk group who then generate antibodies, they block the network of pathways toward the most vulnerable people, ultimately ending the threat. Extending whole-population isolation would directly prevent that widespread immunity from developing.

I want to bring in CNN political commentator Michael Smerconish, who was having that discussion with Dr. Atlas. Michael, thanks for coming on. Tell us what more you learned in this conversation.

SMERCONISH: Well, he vehemently objects to any characterization as him being an advocate within the administration for herd immunity, says that has never been the case, he's never had that conversation with the president, nor would he have the conversation.

And he believes it to be -- I don't think he used this word, but I think I can characterize it properly -- reckless for people to say that that's a role that he's played because he thinks it preys on the anxiety and depressive feelings that many Americans already have about the pandemic. In other words, they're worried about enough. And now if there's this characterization that we're just going to let it happen and a lot of people are going to die in the process, it comes at a horrible time and it's untrue.

KEILAR: You know, I did hear some semantics in what -- I thought you asked a great question when you asked him basically, did you discuss this idea of Sweden, which was much more open and still hasn't gotten anywhere close to herd immunity with a huge death toll. And you know, something that conservatives argue might be actually a good route to go even though you can't really compare it to the U.S.

And he basically said that he's discussed it but he hasn't advocated for it. Am I right in what I heard there? It sounds like he's saying he talked about it, but he's trying to draw a line between the fact that maybe he highlighted something than he advocated for it, when they really could be one and the same.

[14:10:04]

SMERCONISH: My perception, Brianna, he didn't say this but my perception is that the word "herd" is perceived as toxic in connection with this conversation. And that while he's perfectly willing to discuss immunity and specifically how we're going to stop this virus either by a vaccine or by the antibodies produced by people who've had the virus, you know, it's one or the other or some combination thereof.

But doesn't want this to be characterized as the administration participating in herd immunity because there's some perception that the doors are then open and they're just going to let it happen, overlooking the measures that he argues are being undertaken to safely re-engage schools, safely re-engage businesses, make sure that hospitals aren't overrun and that those who can ill afford COVID-19 are protected.

So look, he came in hot as they say. I was happy to have him on my program because I wanted to hear what he had to say, but he described this as Kafkaesque. And you know, here's a guy who relocated 3,000 miles from Stanford and is bewildered by what he regards as the media not giving him a fair shake.

KEILAR: He's broadly discussed, you know, college football reopening, where we've seen some of the issues there. He's talked about opening schools broadly -- you say safely.

But when a lot of people look at some of his proposals, they don't think that they're particularly thoughtful, they think that he's zoning in on the fact that kids have fewer problems than adults, but he's really minimizing the impact that there could be even on a small number of children.

SMERCONISH: You know, I don't want to overstep my bounds and speak for him. I'm not just looking to promote my day job on radio, but I really do want people to listen to the interview, it's widely available.

I think his response would be to say that he's data driven and that he thinks it's important for both schools to reopen and businesses to reopen, but not to do so laissez-faire -- with some level of oversight.

KEILAR: He said that today?

SMERCONISH: That was not a subject we got into today because the time that we had was consumed with him addressing the "Washington Post" piece, which was very prominent and very popular on their website.

KEILAR: All right, I'll check -- we'll check it out. Michael, thank you so much for joining us.

SMERCONISH: Thanks, Brianna.

KEILAR: -- and sharing this interview with us, Michael Smerconish. You can catch him as well on SiriusXM's POTUS channel every day from 9:00 a.m. to noon, and on Saturdays at 9:00 a.m. right here on CNN.

So you heard Sweden mentioned there, which has come up in conservative circles as a model for how to respond to the pandemic. It's a country that has recorded more than 84,000 cases and 5,800 deaths. Per capita, the death rate is higher than the U.S. and its Scandinavian neighbors -- pardon me -- but it's lower than other hard-hit European countries.

CNN's Max Foster is in Stockholm to investigate what's behind these numbers.

MAX FOSTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There hasn't been a reported death from COVID-19 in this country for more than a week now, since August the 23rd. And that's adding fuel to the theory that the population here has built up some level of resistance to the virus, because there was never a full lockdown.

Now, herd immunity is a very controversial subject. And according to all of the antibody tests that have been carried out on people in Stockholm for example, there's no evidence that herd immunity has indeed built up here, which requires 70 percent of the population-plus to have the right antibodies.

But there's also a theory that perhaps they're testing for the wrong thing. It could be T cells that are protecting the public, but that's a much more complicated test and will require widespread testing to be proven.

Either way, officials here point to a wide range of factors that speak to Sweden's success, such as the universal health care system, such as the high number of single-person households, but also the high trust that the public tends to have in the government, public institutions here.

The government also points out that whilst there wasn't any mandatory lockdown here, many people chose to lock down themselves, and also to socially distance from others. Max Foster, CNN, Stockholm, Sweden.

KEILAR: Max, thank you.

More than 6 million Americans have contracted the coronavirus, and that number is rising in part because of super spreader events. More than 20,000 COVID cases in 36 states have been reported at colleges and universities. Plus, you may remember the motorcycle rally in Sturgis, South Dakota last month. Well, CNN surveyed state health departments across the United States. They found at least 260 coronavirus cases in 12 states that were associated with the rally.

[14:15:03]

And the "Washington Post" reports that a wedding in rural Maine generated dozens of cases. By the end of August, officials with the Maine Center for Disease Control and Prevention had linked at least 87 cases to that one wedding.

The wedding was Maine's first cluster outbreak, linked to a social gathering. But experts say it's an example of just how fast the virus can silently spread.

Dr. Dora Anne Mills is the chief health improvement officer for MaineHealth, which is Northern New England's largest health care provider. And she's the former director of the Maine CDC.

Thank you so much for being with us.

DORA ANNE MILLS, CHIEF HEALTH IMPROVEMENT OFFICER, MAINEHEALTH: Thank you for having me.

KEILAR: You know, eyes trained on Maine right now, and rural communities. Of course, they tend to be tight-knit even if you have a little more space between people at times. Does that make them more at risk, kind of that sort of small town community vibe?

MILLS: Yes. You know, I'm from rural Maine and I know when I'm in my hometown, there's some sense of feeling more protected from this pandemic. Because it is so less dense, it's so rural and so sparsely populated.

And yet, that tight-knit communities that you do feel in rural America also make us more vulnerable in some ways when we're there. And the wedding is actually a pretty good example of it, because you do feel this false sense of security.

But also, for instance, that wedding, there were people from all over that community who attended it. And as a result, there are places that are closed in the town such as the schools, the town office, the hospital even is, except for essential services are shuttered.

So it's -- you know, makes rural America, I think there's this false sense of security and it's also they're more vulnerable because of the tight-knit fabric of that society that we see in rural America.

KEILAR: And this lodge where this wedding was held said it misinterpreted -- that's the word they said, they misinterpreted safety protocols about crowd size. It was issued a citation for doing so. How difficult is it for public health officials to enforce masks and social distancing, even crowd size at these kinds of events?

MILLS: Yes, it's very difficult particularly because there are so many different events all over the country, that it's very hard to be everywhere. So that's why public education is so important, and making sure people realize the importance of all these strategies. You know, you can look at them as layers of protection.

So the numbers of people who gathered, that is very important. But it's not just the numbers, it's making sure that people are masking. I've got my own mask here, my red lobster mask, you know, that we're wearing our masks, that we're watching our distance, we're staying at least six feet apart from others -- and while we're masked as well, you know, doing both. It's masking and distancing.

And that we're washing our hands a lot, that we're looking at the ventilation situation. So outdoors is better ventilated than indoors. That the duration of an event is important. If you're together for a few minutes or an hour, it's less risky than if you're together for hours at a time.

And that people are screening themselves, making sure that if they have any symptoms, they don't attend an event. And making sure that if people are coming from afar, from another state, that they're getting tested before they attend an event, just to reduce, minimize the risk that they may carry that infection with them.

You know, the sad cautionary tale out of this wedding is that COVID is an uninvited guest at many of these events, so we want to be careful no matter where we are.

KEILAR: Yes. I think we sympathize with people, they want to have weddings of course, but there are ways to do it safely where you're not endangering, especially your elderly guests, you know, who we all love so much. Dr. Mills, thank you so much for being with us.

MILLS: Thank you, thank you.

KEILAR: Love your mask, giving me ideas, by the way.

(LAUGHTER)

As the president right now is touring Kenosha, Wisconsin, he's defending the 17-year-old vigilante accused of killing two protestors.

Plus, he's also floating baseless conspiracy theories about thugs on planes hired to protest him, and people in the dark shadows controlling Joe Biden. Very unclear what he's talking about, seems to be making it up.

[14:19:13]

And we have more on our breaking news, just as the Trump administration refuses to hold in-person briefings for Congress on the security of the election, Facebook and the FBI are finding a covert online Russian campaign targeting Americans.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Despite repeated requests by state and local officials not to come, President Trump is now in Kenosha, Wisconsin, where Jacob Blake was shot seven times in the back by police. Violence has erupted in the aftermath of Blake's shooting, and two people were allegedly killed by an armed vigilante.

Many fear Trump's visit could inflame the divisions that had put the city and America on edge. Ryan Nobles is in Kenosha. And Ryan, can you tell us what the president is planning on doing there, and how has he been received so far?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Brianna. So the president just arrived to this high school here behind me in Kenosha. His motorcade, pulling up about five minutes ago. This was after the president toured a burned out building, a furniture store about five minutes away from where we're standing right now to kind of survey the damage that has come out of these protests, and the violence in the wake of the shooting of Jacob Blake.

Now, at this high school behind me, he's going to tour the emergency operations center, which local law enforcement has set up in the wake of all the protests and violence. And then he's going to hold a roundtable discussion with local law enforcement, the local sheriff as well as some high-level federal officials as well as the acting secretary of Homeland Security Chad Wolf, and Attorney General William Barr.

[14:25:02]

So that's the conversation the president is having right now. And as you can see, Brianna, it is mainly focused on the law enforcement response, not as much about the initial act that led to all these protests, and that is the shooting of Jacob Blake.

Now as you mentioned, the president at this point, not necessarily reaching out to the family directly. There have been, you know, attempts for the two sides to come together, but it has not been received and there's not been a definitive connection between the two.

And as for the reception the president is getting, where we are standing there is a relatively small crowd, a mix of protestors and supporters. There were loud cheers for the president as his motorcade came by.

But as you mentioned, Brianna, there is real concern from leadership here in Kenosha. The mayor of the city of Kenosha, the governor of Wisconsin as well, asking the president not to come because they do not view his visit as something that can bring this community together and solve some of the problems that they're dealing with right now -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes, the White House, Ryan, has promised a unifying visit, that that is the purpose of President Trump's visit. But it's worth pointing out that that would be quite a departure from the rhetoric that we have heard from him.

He has essentially encouraged his supporters to patrol protestors and he has defended the shooter in Kenosha, and even likened, in the case of Jacob Blake, police officers who make the wrong call and shoot someone in the back seven times like that, he's likened them to golfers who flub a three-foot putt. This would be quite the departure -- right? -- that he would have to make in order to have a unifying visit.

NOBLES: Yes, that's exactly right, Brianna. And if you look at his schedule, there doesn't appear to be that effort to reach out to the other side of this conversation. And if he were truly interested in a unifying message of bringing the two sides together, you'd think that there would be a roundtable for instance with some of the local activists and protestors.

Even if the Blake family itself would not be that interested in meeting with the president, there are prominent voices here that would be willing to take an audience with the president. So far, those folks just not on his schedule today, Brianna.

KEILAR: All right, Ryan Nobles in Kenosha, thank you.

And joining me now is Democratic Congressman Mark Pocan of Wisconsin. He was actually born and raised there in Kenosha. Thank you so much for being with us.

REP. MARK POCAN (D-WI): Well thank you, Brianna, glad to be here.

KEILAR: I know this is a very busy time for you, and I know that this is something that is very personal to you, being something that is happening in your community. And I just wonder overall what you think about the president visiting Kenosha today?

POCAN: Well, I was in Kenosha this morning in fact, visiting my 91- year-old mother. We talked to a lot of folks in downtown, and we talked to some people and just try to get their reactions. The problem is, this is a town that's healing right now and the last thing you need is anything that's not a healing, unifying message.

And as you said, I haven't seen Donald Trump in three and a half years do very much that's unifying. And all his messaging on this so far has really been backing up vigilantes and militia and talking about the (INAUDIBLE), you know, mothers (ph) (INAUDIBLE) grandmother of (INAUDIBLE) protestors. One of the (INAUDIBLE) dad had a business growing up.

So, you know, I've seen the devastation firsthand, and Donald Trump needs to be not-Donald Trump for a change if this visit's going to be successful.

KEILAR: Yes, if he's going to deliver a unifying message, as the White House is promising.

One of the things that we've heard -- you know, all of this originated, the initial protesting originated because of the killing of Jacob Blake at the hands of police. And it's all on video, he was shot seven times in the back.

The president was talking about actions like this, where police in a split second make a decision and they make the wrong decision. And he likened it to a golfer choking on a three-foot putt. I wonder what you think and also if you've heard anything from folks in the area about the president saying that.

POCAN: Yes. I mean, you know, unfortunately, that's the rhetoric we're afraid he's going to say today because that will not help any healing in this community.

And you know, if you think about it, this is Donald Trump's America, where we have people wearing masks because they're afraid of COVID, we have 100,000 small businesses that have closed down because of their actions. And we have racial tensions, and then we have a president flying around not to unify people, but to build support among his base, which is not what a president's supposed to do.

So everything about this visit is likely going to be wrong. And if he were to come and have a unifying message, I would have a completely different take on this. If Joe Biden were to come with a unifying message, that would be healing and helpful.

But when you make those kind of goofy comparisons about something as serious as people being shot, you don't serve Kenosha or any community very well.

[14:30:08]