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Live Coverage as Joe Biden Takes Questions in Delaware; Live Analysis of Joe Biden's Responses; Interview with Former CDC Director Tom Frieden. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired September 02, 2020 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: What's the most -- the way it did the most damage? And as that became clearer and clearer, we concluded that we just can't continue to have these large rallies.

And you know, think about it. Here we are, the rest of the world, the places that have done extremely well in terms of dealing with this COVID crisis around the world, you know, we have the five largest countries in Europe have a population larger than the United States of America, yet we're -- in the month of August, we're losing a thousand lives a day and they're losing 57 a day, combined, combined, all of them combined.

So I just don't -- as we learn more -- and we did learn more, and by March and April, we knew a whole heck of a lot more. Why weren't we doing what needed to be done? Why are we being told that, don't we have plenty of protective gear?

And the one big thing that I did push a lot on -- I wasn't the only one -- was on the need for testing and tracing. And moving rapidly to make sure that you had the capacity to test and trace before it got so out of control. We need to do that now.

But here's the thing -- I'll end with this, I apologize for keeping you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have (ph) all (ph) the time (ph) --

BIDEN: Oh, well --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't see you that often.

BIDEN: The thing that I just don't quite understand, is when it's clear that some of the things that the president says are simply not true relating to this crisis, and when enormous pressure is put on professionals in the administration from the CDC to NIH, across the board, why do we think, God willing, when we get a vaccine that is good, works, why do we think the public's going to line up to be able take the -- be willing to take the injection?

We've lost so much confidence, the American people, in what's said. Because we're finding out, again today, plasma, well, that doesn't quite work the way we were told it was. Hell of a lot of pressure put on that person to say that.

This president has said so many things that are untrue, that are just wrong. In order to do anything, he looks at it in one way. If the stock market is high and it's moving, and we're reducing the number of people who are in real trouble economically, then it doesn't matter what I say. That's the objective, that's the objective.

The objective is to keep the American people safe so we can begin to get back to normal rebuilding our economy and bringing back economic growth. Thank you all very much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: All right, former vice president Joe Biden, speaking in Wilmington, Delaware and taking questions from reporters. I want to bring in the experts here to talk about this: David Chalian, Nia-Malika Henderson with us, and Dana Bash as well.

David Chalian, to you first. What did you think?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, I think the underscoring here of Joe Biden's philosophy that the economy cannot get fixed until the virus is under control? He is right. He's been saying that for a very long time, and I think this is going to be a message that you see from him consistently over the next nine weeks, Brianna.

The other point I would make, to what I think the vice president was doing here through his comments about the president's handling of coronavirus, which again, the weakest spot in the president's record with the American public right now. Joe Biden, using this opportunity to put that back front and center, and doing so in a way that ties it with character.

Joe Biden said at his convention, character's on the ballot? He tied directly this notion of Donald Trump -- who is not seen as honest and trustworthy by the American people, Brianna -- directly to his mishandling of the coronavirus, and the misinformation getting out there.

Those two things, taking the most prominent issue in people's lives right now, coronavirus -- and attaching it to a key character metric of honesty and trustworthiness? That is the argument in a nutshell that Joe Biden is going to take to the American people for the next nine weeks.

KEILAR: And he made the point, Nia, that he's worried Americans are not trustworthy of the president or of the government when it comes to this idea of a vaccine. There is not a vaccine, but certainly there's a lot of hope that there will be one. And then the question is, are people going to go ahead and get it? He seemed to indicate he's worried people won't trust the government and that they're not trusting President Trump to go forward with that.

[14:05:12] NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Right. I mean, even before the coronavirus, there were millions of people across the country who were just skeptical of vaccines generally. And so now you have an administration that has oftentimes been contradictory in terms of advice, health care advice, in terms of plasma. Sort of basically saying that was a king of miracle, and then kind of having to back off on some of the claims about that.

I thought this was a great speech because it's meeting people where they are living right now in terms of juggling school, their kids, working and having to really navigate this new reality. A lot of kids going back to school, obviously, this week, trying to figure out, are they going to be in school, are they going to be on Zoom with 30 other kids and one teacher?

So I thought that was really smart. You have, in President Trump, somebody who has basically said, listen, kids should go back to school, doesn't really have a national plan. He also wants to talk more about violence in the streets.

So here was Joe Biden, I think, basically talking to parents about everything that they're talking about with their family and friends right now, which is, are their kids learning in the way that they should if they're having to do Zoom? Are they sort of backsliding in terms of their education and sort of mental faculties because of all the stresses and strains of this new reality, and having to balance all this.

So I thought this was a smart play by Biden, dealing with the real issues that people are experiencing because of COVID right now.

KEILAR: Dana, what did you think?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think definitely what David and Nia said. The way I was kind of looking at it and thinking about it as I was listening to him speak is, he was taking the reins of the campaign conversation and trying to pull them back to where he and his campaign wants it .

And that is, to talk about, as David said, character but I would use another word, and that is leadership. To remind people and to implore people to understand that where we are right now, that kids can't go to school, that parents are having to figure out whether or not they should stay home with their kids or give up their job and how they're going to deal with that financially.

All of those issues that people are dealing with as we speak in a very, very real way, his argument was, this was all preventable. Not that the pandemic was preventable, not that the virus was, but the ability to deal with this could have been different had you had a White House and a president who didn't.

Now, he used the term "angel dust," I don't think that he meant to use that term if he knows what that means, because that is the street name for a drug. But he was trying to say that the president thought that magically it would just disappear, which is not how it works. Whether or not the former vice president is going to be able to

continue to hold onto those reins and steer this conversation where he wants it, it's an open question when you have Donald Trump, who is trying to throw things like should candidates take a drug test out there ,never mind the law and order message he's pushing.

CHALIAN: Brianna, just to underscore what Dana said there though about leadership, even when the conversation leaves coronavirus -- as it will, let's say, Joe Biden going to Kenosha tomorrow -- and is going to be talking about the issues that have taken place there.

You heard him today address that, saying he's going to help heal, he's going to try and bring people together. Even there, he wants to have this leadership comparison of what President Trump just did in Kenosha yesterday, even as the conversation may go to different topics. The leadership throughline that Dana's talking about, I think you see clearly on display in Biden's intent.

BASH: And if I may add just one thing, just to give a little bit more meat on that bone, he was asked about Mike Schmidt's, you know, incredible reporting in his new book about the idea that the president went to Walter Reed, there were all kinds of questions, what Mike Pence's role was.

He didn't bite, he didn't go there. I mean, he said -- his quote was something along the lines of, nothing this administration does is normal. But wouldn't speculate on that.

So he's continuing to kind of stay above the fray, even though you know, when you're going up against Donald Trump, that doesn't always work.

KEILAR: No. And --

(CROSSTALK)

HENDERSON: -- that's something -- the contrast, right? Him just standing up there, taking questions, sort of not fighting with reporters, such a contrast from what we see from the current president, engaging in conspiracy theories, often not telling the truth. And there is Joe Biden, sort of having good manners in terms of dealing with complicated issues and then in dealing with reporters as well.

KEILAR: Yes, he showed -- look, he showed a mastery of the issues. I wonder if he is -- you know, there's a lot of anger out there amongst his supporters. I wonder if you know, he needs to reflect a little bit of that more.

[14:10:06]

But first, I want to bring in MJ Lee because MJ, you were there, you asked questions of the former vice president including the one that he didn't quite bite on, he said he didn't want to speculate on the president's visit to Walter Reed. But he did also make the point of saying that when he was vice

president -- because we know this book says that Vice President Mike Pence was -- he was basically told to be on standby in the case of the president having to go under anesthesia for whatever this reason was that he went to Walter Reed.

And he did sort of say something, which was that when the president would go overseas, when President Obama would go overseas, Biden was just sort of briefed on the possibility of what that might mean if there was some situation. What did you think about the answer?

MJ LEE, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well you know, it was interesting because Joe Biden obviously was formerly the vice president, so he does have insight into how these things usually work at the White House, insight into what might happen when a president in the White House is taken to Walter Reed for a medical exam, whether it is scheduled or not.

So it was interesting that when we asked him about this tidbit from this new book about Donald Trump's visit to Walter Reed in 2019 -- which I should note, there are still lots of outstanding questions about that visit -- first of all as Dana pointed out, he made the point of saying, look, without speculating on sort of the medical aspect of this, nothing that this administration does is normal.

That obviously is a theme that he has been trying to drive home about the president, just about his character and his behavior and conduct. And then saying, you know, when I asked as vice president, is that a kind of situation that you ever encountered? He said essentially no, other than -- with the exception of when President Trump (sic) traveled out of the country, he was put on alert because he was going abroad.

So I think this exchange highlights that there are, again, just a lot of remaining questions about what happened in 2019, and why the White House has decided to conduct itself in a way sort of lacking in transparency, not following previous administration's protocol about when a president might go in for a medical examination.

And if I could just quickly say too, just in the big picture about this event that we saw today, you know, clearly this is a Joe Biden that is set on making sure that President Trump does not sort of own the conversation and turn the conversation at every possible moment to lawlessness and the issue of crime, as he has been trying to do over the past few weeks. And particularly for four days straight at the Republican National Convention.

You know, it is not an accident that, as so many parents across the country and teachers and educators are very worried about what is going to happen with the reopening of schools during COVID-19, he chose to turn the conversation back to COVID-19.

It's almost like he's, you know, waving a sign that says, hey American voters, this crisis and this pandemic is not over regardless of how many times the president and his allies try to sort of talk around it and try to paint this picture of this alternate reality where the pandemic is almost in the past tense, it is no longer an issue.

KEILAR: Yes. There's still so much of it ahead of us, and he's trying to make sure voters remember that. MJ, thank you so much.

David to you before we wrap up this conversation, the debates, right? Let's talk about the debates. Because that came up, and Biden said -- and he was kind of laughing about it, but what he would love is essentially like a lower third, or like a ticker tape fact-checking on the bottom of his screen.

This is coming as the Trump campaign is complaining about the choice of moderators, we should mention. But he's going to have to be his own fact-checker as well during that debate.

CHALIAN: Yes. It's going to be a tough challenge for him, because how much does he want to spend his time pushing back on falsehoods that President Trump may be putting out there versus putting out his rationale for seeking the presidency and his policy positions?

So it's going to be a very tricky balance. And as you know, it's a 90- minute affair, the two of them on stage answering these questions. He's not going to want to let the president get away with a complete untruth and a complete lie about something or a mischaracterization, but he also isn't going to want to squander the opportunity, Brianna, to make sure he's hammering home his message to voters.

KEILAR: Yes, it's a delicate balance.

All right, all of you, thank you so much for the conversation.

Dr. Fauci is issuing a new warning for the country ahead of flu season.

Plus, the National Institute of Health is directly contradicting the Trump administration on a possible COVID treatment.

[14:15:00]

And a reported 17 percent increase in the number of COVID cases in children over the past two weeks.

This is CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Turning now to the pandemic and a potential early sign that the recent fall in U.S. cases is bottoming out. Once again, the U.S. saw more than a thousand people die from coronavirus in a single day, after days of a lower daily death toll.

Today, infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci is warning about the upcoming Labor Day holiday just as Americans are urged to do all that we can now for the flu season, the first in generations happening during a pandemic.

[14:20:19] Sound bite.

Now in other developments, a new British study finds effects from the coronavirus may last months longer than expected with patients needing to wait more than a month to make sure they're clear of the virus.

And some positive updates, the Trump administration will send out low- cost antigen tests starting next month.

Plus, newly released research confirms common and cheap steroids can reduce deaths among critically ill coronavirus patients.

There's another major headline, and that is that the National Institutes of Health is now saying convalescent plasma should not be treated as a standard of care for COVID-19. This is coming less than 10 days after the FDA authorized emergency use of the treatment.

But an NIH panel says there is insufficient data to recommend either for or against the use of the treatment.

I'm joined now by Dr. Tom Frieden, he's the former director of the CDC. It's great to see you, Dr. Frieden. You know as well as anyone, this is extremely confusing for families who have loved ones who are in the hospital battling this virus. So just tell us you know, what the truth is here. What's the data on convalescent plasma and should this have gotten CDC authorization?

TOM FRIEDEN, FORMER CDC DIRECTOR: Well, the details here are really important. Convalescent plasma is 100 years old, and the FDA, which gave what's called emergency use authorization, basically just has to say it may do more good than harm. And so perhaps that was a valid measure.

What's really concerning is how politicized that was. It was billed as a major breakthrough, which it is not. The headlines, the framing, the way it was done really smell of political interference.

And Brianna, there have been far too many casualties from COVID, more than 200,000 more Americans died between March and July than have died in other years if the death rate were the same. That's from COVID, and also the disruption that COVID causes.

What we don't want is not only lives and education and jobs and our economy, but also our treasured institutions like the Food and Drug Administration and the Centers for Disease Control and prevention, to be really casualties of this pandemic.

KEILAR: So I mean, the CDC has been politicized, right? And for it to be effective, it has to resist that politicization. How far gone is it in terms of politicization do you think, and what does it need to do?

FRIEDEN: Well, I think if you look at masks or contact tracing or testing or lockdowns or reopening, there's a more effective and a less effective way to do those things. And unfortunately, this administration has used the less effective means. And because of that, the U.S. has a much higher death rate, our

economy has taken a harder hit, and we're in worse shape now. We can't get our kids back to school, we can't go back to our workplaces without the kind of risk that could have been avoided.

There are things that each of us can do: wear a mask when you're near others, make sure that if you are positive you participate in contact tracing so that contacts can be warned and can quarantine so that they don't become infectious and infect others.

There's lots that we can do against this virus, but it's not going to go away on its own. We have to work together. Stay apart, but work together and we can make a lot more progress.

KEILAR: Are you worried that some Americans won't trust the CDC?

FRIEDEN: I'm very worried about the lack of trust. It's very hard to fight an epidemic if people can't trust what's being said. And if you see the kind of recommendations and statements that are being made by people who are not qualified to make those statements, they don't have training in the control of infectious diseases? it's really not keeping faith with the American people.

When you're in an epidemic, it's crucial to be very clear about what you know, when you know it, to state that clearly, to give recommendations for what's proven that people can do. There are some things we definitely know. If you're feeling sick, stay home, get a test. Wear a mask any time you're indoors near other people. And we're learning more about how to treat patients who are very ill in the hospital. That's all good news, but we're still a long, long way from being out of the woods with this virus.

KEILAR: Yes. I'm so glad you say that, because we really do need to put into perspective that the foundation of a good public health response is just a government that is being accurate about what is happening, what has happened, what could happen and what Americans need to do here.

[14:25:02]

Let's talk about this critical issue of the vaccine. Dr. Fauci says he thinks there could be one by the end of the year, he says that the data is incredibly good, the FDA could end clinical trials early and give an emergency use authorization when it comes to a vaccine. Let's listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: I've been through a number of vaccine trials in which EUAs have ultimately been done, but they've been done when there was enough data that you would really feel comfortable that it was safe and effective for the American public.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KEILAR: As you know, Doctor, the American public has to feel that it's safe and effective. Would you be comfortable with fast-tracking a vaccine?

FRIEDEN: Depends on the data. We need to see the data openly, and the FDA has said they'll provide all of the data openly. There really are three things to look at: Is it effective, does it work? Is it safe? And will people take it, will it be trusted?

In terms of that safety, that's a complicated question because sometimes you don't find a problem with a vaccine until tens of hundreds of thousands of people have been vaccinated. That means that not only do you need to start carefully, but you need to monitor over time.

And we already have too much distrust in vaccines, we really need complete openness about what's going on with a vaccine, an assurance that it's not politicized, and an understanding that decisions are made with one concept only: How do we save American lives?

KEILAR: I want to talk to you about something that Iowa Senator Joni Ernst has suggested, which is the doctors in her state may be intentionally falsifying COVID cases for money. There is -- we've heard no evidence of this, I want to add. But this is her conversation with a local reporter.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now you mentioned something I want to clarify about the COVID numbers and maybe being inflated by health care providers in order to get more reimbursement?

SEN. JONI ERNST (R-IA): Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wanted to give you maybe an opportunity to clarify your thoughts there?

ERNST: Well, and again, this is what I've heard from health care providers and others. I can't actually look at that information, but I have heard it from health care providers that they do get reimbursed higher amounts if it's a COVID-related illness or death. So because of the additional expense for PPE and the treatment that might be necessary for COVID-19.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think the numbers are being inflated because of that?

ERNST: That I'm not sure. And again, that's why I want somebody to really go back and do a good fact check on this. And I don't have the means to do that... But I do think that should be discussed because I heard the same thing on the news, you know, traveling across the state today, is that they're thinking there may be 10,000 or less deaths that were actually singularly COVID-19.

(END AUDIO CLIP) KEILAR: And Doctor, just a quick fact-check for our viewers. When you look at that death total that we have on the side of our screen -- 185,000 deaths -- there's been this discussion about comorbidity, but obviously these are not deaths that would occur in the absence of coronavirus, so these are coronavirus deaths. I just want to be very clear about that.

What do you think about her raising this question of whether essentially doctors are en masse committing fraud when it comes to COVID numbers?

FRIEDEN: There is a plain and simple truth here. More than 200,000 Americans died in excess of historical rates between March and July. The death rate is a fact, everything else is inference.

Now, if you die from cancer and you also have diabetes, that doesn't mean you didn't die from cancer, that means you had another condition. If you die from COVID and you also had diabetes, that doesn't mean you didn't die from COVID.

The facts here are extremely clear. The U.S. death rate, and what we -- the most reliable way of measuring this is what's called the excess mortality, which is the number of deaths beyond the historical baseline, and that's been looked at by the "Financial Times," by "The Economist," news magazines, by the CDC, by "The New York Times.

And the data's extremely clear, there are well over 200,000 excess deaths in the U.S. already. And that's a combination of three things. One, someone who died and the doctor said, yes, this was COVID, that's that 185,000 number. Two, people who died from COVID but because there wasn't a test or they died at home or it wasn't recognized, it wasn't recognized to be COVID. And three, people who might have had a heart attack or other serious problem and didn't go to get care because they were afraid or the health care system was overwhelmed.

That's the bottom line. We've lost more than 200,000 American lives because the response to this pandemic in the U.S. has not been nearly as effective as many other countries have done.

KEILAR: What does it mean to you when we have coronavirus death toll deniers operating in high -- the highest levels of government?

[14:30:05]