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Interview with Author Rick Perlstein; Surge in Prescriptions for Drugs Promoted by Trump; Canada's Top Public Health Official Advises Wearing Masks During Sex. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired September 03, 2020 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Top of the hour now, I am Brianna Keilar and I want to thank you for joining me.

For the second day in a row, the U.S. is reporting more than a thousand people dying from coronavirus in a single day. More than a thousand families have just lost a mother, a brother, a grandparent, someone they love, to the pandemic, which has now cut short more than 186,000 lives across the country.

Right now, the U.S. is averaging about 41,000 new cases a day. That is lower than the summer peak of 70,000, but it's still too high with the compounding problem of a flu season that is rapidly approaching.

And for the Labor Day Weekend that is just ahead here, Dr. Anthony Fauci is warning people against gathering, and he's pleading for them to wear masks and socially distance, after past holiday weekends have led to spikes in infections.

Dr. Fauci also says that Americans can feel, quote, "confident in the vaccine process" after CDC documents revealed it is directing states to prepare to distribute a coronavirus vaccine as soon as late October, but Fauci also expressed doubt over that timeline, saying it was unlikely but not impossible.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: These are all guesstimates, Jim. I mean, if you look at the projection of the enrollment and the kinds of things you'll need to get a decision about whether the vaccine is safe and effective, most of us project that that's going to be by November, December, by the end of the year.

Could this be earlier? Sure. So if someone comes out and says, you know, I'm going to shoot for the possibility that I'll get it by October, you can't argue strongly against that, that's unlikely, not impossible. I think most of the people feel it's going to be November, December.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KEILAR: Now, before President Trump presses for an accelerated timeline on a vaccine, he may want to take a look at the history books because more than 40 years ago, another Republican president had a similar situation. In 1976 -- an election year -- President Gerald Ford launched a campaign to mass-vaccinate the public against a strain of the swine flu virus, and it turned out to be a debacle.

Historian Rick Perlstein is the author of the book "Reaganland: America's Right Turn 1976-1980." We're talking here about what happened in 1976, sir, so tell us more about, I guess, what happened and what we can learn.

RICK PERLSTEIN, AUTHOR, "REAGANLAND: AMERICA'S RIGHT TURN 1976-1980": Yes. Very simply, a strain of flu developed at Fort Dix, which was an Army base that trained recruits in New Jersey. And public health officials were concerned that it seemed to resemble the swine flu virus that killed, you know, 50, 100 million people in 1919.

So the secretary of what was then called the Department of Health, Education and Welfare met with the president on March 22nd, 1976. And he said that we should consider a crash virus production program, that it should be up and running within around six months or so.

And from the documents that I saw at the Ford Library, they went forward even though the epidemiologists said that the probability of a pandemic was unknown, and that they had no scientific consensus that -- there had been no swine flu problems since 1930, even though that virus had existed, and there was no discussion of the possible side effects.

But Gerald Ford decided to go forward with it. It wasn't completely independent of scientific intervention, he wasn't like Donald Trump, you know, barking orders at people to ignore science. But there were some concerning political considerations. They noted that the press was aware of this, they noted that Congress would expect action, they said it would be a great symbol of America's unity going into the bicentennial year.

And Gerald Ford was up for his first election. He had acceded to the presidency as vice president because he's been nominated to replace a guy who had resigned, Spiro Agnew. And then kind of most menacingly, the guy lurking in the background of this was his chief of staff, a guy named Dick Cheney.

So Gerald Ford stands before the public in the press room on March 24th and said, every American is going to take this vaccine that we're going to develop. In September, he went before the TV cameras in the Oval Office. He had a syringe jabbed into his arm, kind of make a little joke, and that was it. Hundreds of thousands of people, even millions of people were vaccinated.

The moral of the story is that there was no pandemic. Only one person died, but because of the unsafe non-speeded-up lack of testing and lack of care in the development, 30 people died from Guillain-Barre syndrome, 400 people were paralyzed. And after publishing this op-ed this morning, I have received a number of e-mails from people who were traumatized by this.

The worst one I got was from someone who said, after this experience of seeing their grandfather basically have his life kind of sapped away and being exhausted for the rest of his life, said they were never going to take a vaccine for the rest of their lives. So that's what happens when you play with the trust of the American public by rushing a vaccine without adequate care.

[14:05:13]

KEILAR: This is avoidable, though, right? With taking appropriate --

PERLSTEIN: Absolutely, absolutely.

KEILAR: -- care. I mean, that's the point, is --

(CROSSTALK)

KEILAR: -- you know, we don't want people to look at this and worry about any vaccine. This isn't about any vaccine, right? This is about taking care.

PERLSTEIN: A rushed vaccine, that's right.

KEILAR: A rushed vaccine.

So what lessons can be learned from the fact that this administration really has one shot at this, you know?

(CROSSTALK)

KEILAR: They really have to nail this right out of the gate so that they do not lose the trust of Americans thinking that a vaccine will work.

PERLSTEIN: Yes. Donald Trump could to the patriotic thing. He could say, we're not shooting for November, we're shooting for December. I don't care about my re-election, I'm willing to sacrifice the health and safety of the American people even if -- I'm not willing to sacrifice the health and safety of the American people even if that makes -- means sacrificing my power.

Of course, he'll never do that because he's an authoritarian and all he cares about is his power. And that's one of the most tragic, frightening developments of this very tragic and frightening week and month, that we have a president literally playing with Americans' lives.

This is the sort of thing that can destroy the sort of trust that public health officials need for a generation or even more. He'll have blood on his hands if he doesn't slow down this process and listen to the scientists and ignore political considerations altogether.

KEILAR: Rick, I want to thank you for coming on. You know, this is an instance that you know, I wasn't familiar with. I think a lot of people aren't, and there are lessons to be taken from it. We appreciate you being here.

PERLSTEIN: Thanks so kindly.

KEILAR: Just in to CNN, the CDC is reporting a major surge in prescriptions in March and April for the controversial drugs that President Trump touted without evidence that they actually worked. More than 250,000 new prescriptions for hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine were written, and many of these were written by specialists who don't typically prescribe these medications, that is significant.

CNN's senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen, joining me now.

Elizabeth, we have to note again, the studies have shown no benefit from these drugs. Studies have been suspended because they're concerned about the fact that this could actually hurt people. What do you make of what the findings are here?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: And, Brianna, beyond that, when you go back in time to March and April, it's not as if there were all these studies that looked good at the time and later turned out to look bad. There were no studied that showed that this really looked good. There were no reliable studies. And still, doctors jumped to prescribe hydroxychloroquine.

Let me tell you the numbers, and then I'll tell you what I think about it. So for example in March of 2019, so before the pandemic, you saw about 31,000 new prescriptions that month for hydroxychloroquine, which is a legitimate drug for malaria, for lupus, for a variety of things.

In March of 2020, you saw over 200,000 new prescriptions for that drug. So obviously, that's about COVID. And you saw doctors who don't usually prescribe these drugs, prescribing these drugs. And this is just outpatient that we're talking about.

So what we see -- what this means is that doctors kind of got very nervous. They said, gee, I have nothing to give these people, people are coming in and saying, I heard the president say this is a terrific drug, I've read all about it on Facebook, et cetera, et cetera. And the doctors said, here, have a prescription.

I would guess that many of those doctors knew that this drug probably wasn't going to do anything, but they felt the pressure to prescribe it.

So you could blame doctors and say, why in the world are they prescribing something for which there was no proof? But you could also look at it and say, look, they were in a difficult situation, you had people getting sick and they said, well, gee, there's somebody out there suggesting this might work, I'm going to prescribe it.

But this is -- when sort of the history of this pandemic is written, this is an embarrassing chapter. There is no reason for this number of prescriptions, and there wasn't at the time either.

KEILAR: Yes. No, certainly. All right, Elizabeth, thank you so much, we appreciate that.

COHEN: Thanks.

KEILAR: Canada's top doctor is talking candidly about sex as it relates to this pandemic. Dr. Theresa Tam, Canada's chief public health officer, has this advice for those who want to have sex with a person that is outside of their household or their bubble. Wear a mask. Yes, wear a mask. Skip the kissing, and overall avoid face-to- face contact or closeness.

Well, that raises a lot of questions, right? Tam says that people should not have sex with someone who is infected -- I think we all know that.

Joining me now to talk about this is Syra Madad, she is the senior director of the System-wide Special Pathogens Program office for New York City Health and Hospitals. And Syra, I just want -- do you agree with Dr. Tam's advice? What do you think of it?

[14:10:07]

SYRA MADAD, SENIOR DIRECTOR OF PATHOGENS PROGRAM, NYC HEALTH AND HOSPITALS: I do agree. You know, any close contact with an infected person is a means of potential transmission of COVID-19, so regardless of the activity or act that you're performing, you're obviously putting yourself at higher risk.

And so, you know, putting in mitigation measures like wearing a mask and not engaging in, for example, kissing -- that can exchange, you know, saliva -- that's a way to prevent transmission.

KEILAR: And I wonder, Dr. Madad, do you think that people are going to follow this? I mean, I just -- I think for instance of you know, young people who are dating, and they're saying, really, you're telling us that if there is dating and that there is sexual intercourse, that we should wear a mask and that we shouldn't kiss? You know, obviously, that really changes intimate relations as we have known them to be.

MADAD: That's correct. You know, it goes back to risk reduction. So we know that you know, when you're engaging in these types of acts, it increases your risk of getting exposed to COVID-19. And so the best way to provide education is to tell them what you can do to decrease your risk.

You know, telling them to completely abstain from these types of activities will just make -- will just basically have people doing it, you know, behind the scenes, if you will, and doing it unsafely.

And this is why it's important to provide this type of information because an abstinence-only approach has never worked. We've seen this with HIV, we've seen this with other sexually transmitted diseases. Not to say COVID-19 is sexually transmitted, we are still investigating the means of transmission.

But we know that exchange of, for example, saliva, and we've also seen that, you know, COVID-19, you have particles and semen and vagina and fecal matter. And so coming into contact with those do -- potentially may increase your risk. And so it's just good to follow this public health guidance.

The other thing I'll just quickly mention is you know, people think that, you know, if I've had tested for COVID-19 and I have antibodies, well then I don't have to wear a mask. And that's not true. That doesn't give you a clean bill of health in that sense.

And so we want to make sure people also understand that maybe even if you have antibodies for COVID-19, you still need to wear a mask if you are engaging in these types of acts outside of your household contacts.

KEILAR: Yes, maybe it stops them from having symptoms if they get reinfected, I think that's one of the questions. But does it stop them from spreading it to somebody else, which is a very outstanding question.

Dr. Syra Madad, we -- I think this is -- look, this is a topic I think a lot of people have questions about, maybe they don't know how to ask or, you know, it's a sensitive topic so we appreciate you discussing it with us.

MADAD: My pleasure, thanks for having me on.

KEILAR: Ahead, the White House just claimed that the idea of herd immunity was made up by the media. We're going to show you why that is just total B.S.

Plus, the virtual learning divide is real, and you're going to hear the story behind the picture of those two young girls who are sitting outside of Taco Bell, using its WiFi for their schoolwork.

[14:12:56]

And the president suggests that voters in North Carolina vote twice, which is illegal. Please don't do that. How he's trying to walk that back today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: President Trump may be trying to do some damage control after telling his supporters in North Carolina to break the law by voting twice, once by mail and once in person.

And now, the president seems to be telling them to test the system. He posted a string of tweets, saying in part, "On Election Day or early voting, go to your polling place to see whether or not your mail-in vote has been tabulated, counted. If it has, you will not be able to vote in the mail-in system, worked properly. If it has not been counted, vote."

This president has repeatedly said the election will be rigged, repeatedly attacked mail-in voting with conspiracies. He's now encouraging his voters, his supporters to vote twice. He has said he may not accept election results, and he has contradicted U.S. intel on foreign meddling in the election.

And then on top of all of that, his attorney general, Bill Barr, is doubling down on his unsubstantiated claim that foreign governments can commit election fraud here in the U.S.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: And you've said you are worried that a foreign country could send thousands of fake ballots, thousands of take ballots to people and it might be impossible to detect. What are you basing that on?

WILLIAM BARR, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm basing, as I've said repeatedly, I'm basing that on logic.

BLITZER: Pardon?

BARR: Logic.

BLITZER: Have you seen any evidence that a foreign country is trying to interfere --

(CROSSTALK)

BARR: No, I'm saying (INAUDIBLE) --

BLITZER: -- in that way --

BARR: No, I'm saying people are concerned about foreign influence. And if we use a ballot system with a system that some -- you know, that states are just now trying to adopt, it does leave open the possibility of counterfeiting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: And yet intel officials in the Trump administration disagree with the attorney general. And Barr also tells CNN that they've indicted someone in Texas for voter fraud, but a CNN analyst tells us the Justice Department can't substantiate that claim.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARR: For example, we indicted someone in Texas, 1,700 ballots collected he -- from people who could vote, he made them out and voted for the person he wanted t.

JESSICA HUSEMAN, CNN ANALYST: I live in Texas, I am reporting to you now from that state. I am completely unaware of any such indictment. I asked the Department of Justice last night after he made that claim, to substantiate it for me. I have not heard back from him. But so far as I know, nothing like that has happened in this state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Now, raising these unsubstantiated claims about the safety and legitimacy of the election seems to be a strategy to raise doubt in case Joe Biden wins, but this could also backfire because sowing mistrust among voters could cast the same shadow over Trump if he is re-elected. We know certainly from 2016, that is something that the president just can't bear.

[14:20:04]

Now, the NBA is stepping up in this election, 17 teams are now committed to turning their arenas into voting centers. League owners have promised to help improve voting access across the country as part of an agreement with players following the police shooting of Jacob Blake.

CNN's Victor Blackwell is joining me now from Atlanta's State Farm Arena, which is the home of the Atlanta Hawks. Tell us, Victor, what the plan is there.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR, NEW DAY WEEKEND: Well, Bri (ph), it's actually an expansion of what the team and the folks here at State Farm Arena did for the local primary here a few weeks ago, and that is bringing the voting machines here. And this will be an expansion of that. Expected of course, more voters.

These 16,000-plus seats have been empty for months, likely will be empty for months more as the pandemic continues. There will be 300 voting machines, most of them on the floor here. A little more than 2,000 voters came here for the local primary a few weeks ago, they're expecting so much more.

Orlando Magic is the 17th team now to offer up their venue, the Amway Center. And we spoke with the CEO of the team, Steve Koonin, and he said that this is more than just an offer of space. There will be personnel from the team to help as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE KOONIN, CEO, ATLANTA HAWKS: What we're doing is, our staff is working it as if it were a game. Our average age is about 36.5 years old, very tech-savvy, college-educated. And they're doing everything from greeters to registering people to scanning licenses to voter administration. And the key is to having that young tech-savvy staff who are in the guest services business, to help voters with any issues they may have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: So these arenas being offered, they're the first fruits of this new coalition between the NBA and the Players Association focused on social justice and racial justice and voting. Early voting starts here in Georgia on October 12th -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Victor, thank you so much for bringing us that report.

And next, new outbreaks at colleges and universities including 800 new cases at one major school.

Plus right now, Joe Biden is in Kenosha, the site of the Jacob Blake shooting. Hear who Biden just met with.

And President Trump is silent over the poisoning of a Russian opposition leader as other world leaders speak out and demand answers from Vladimir Putin.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:27:08]

KEILAR: Health officials have ordered 30 sorority and fraternity houses at Indiana University-Bloomington to quarantine after a, quote, "alarming increase of positive COVID tests" at their houses. The school has also directed all Greek houses to suspend in-person activities for non-residents until at least September 14th.

At the University of Georgia, nearly 800 students have tested positive for coronavirus in the past week. The university president, calling the rise in cases "concerning."

There's a powerful photo that is putting a spotlight on the stark digital divide in our country. It shows two girls sitting with laptops outside a Taco Bell in Salinas, California so that they could use the restaurant's free WiFi to do their online classes.

And after this photo went viral, the school district gave the girls a hotspot to use in their home so they would have internet and wouldn't need to go to the Taco Bell.

But a study done in June shows approximately 15 million public school students in the U.S. live in homes with inadequate internet connection, or they have devices that are not equipped for distance learning.

I want to bring Luis Alejo. He is the supervisor of the Monterey County Board of Supervisors. Luis, talk to us a little bit about the challenges that are being faced in California and around the country as well, because we also understand that four in 10 Latinos lack reliable internet access. What does this mean, when kids do not -- they're not connected?

LUIS ALEJO, SUPERVISOR, MONTEREY COUNTY BOARD OF SUPERVISORS: Thank you, Brianna. First of all, these -- this image of these two little girls outside a fast food restaurant are the faces of the digital divide in California, but also children all across our country. We know that this digital divide has gone on for far too long. And frankly, it's a national embarrassment here in the technology capital of the world. We must do better for our kids.

I represent the beautiful Salinas Valley, it's the home of John Steinbeck, the Salad Bowl of the World, and it's only 45 minutes from the Silicon Valley. But yet we see a pervasive problem that our children are now facing.

We already know Latinos are the most impacted by COVID in terms of infections, hospitalizations and deaths. But now, this crisis has also highlighted the digital divide, and showing that our children are the most susceptible and being most impacted as their learning has extended online this school year.

KEILAR: And so what needs to be done here? I know that you're calling for a bond measure in California to bring about universal broadband infrastructure. Tell us what you think the chances of that pushing forward are, and just what needs to be done on the state level and on the federal level?

ALEJO: Yes. Well certainly, the estimates in July were that -- by the Department of Education were that 1.2 million students in California or 20 percent didn't have internet access at home.

[14:29:57]

And right now, school districts are having problems because they are all in the same situation.