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CDC Testing Guidance Allegedly Published Outside Normal Review Process; Former Aide to Mike Pence Says She'll Vote for Biden After Her Experience At the White House; Biden Leans into Working Class Roots to Strike Contrast with Trump; Firefighter Dies While Battling Wildfire in California. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired September 18, 2020 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:21]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: It's Friday morning. We're glad you're with us. I'm Poppy Harlow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

The U.S. is closing in on a sad milestone. 200,000 coronavirus deaths in this country. And this morning, look at that map, 30 states now seeing a steady rise in cases. This following a period of relative good news.

What's happening here, top health officials agree we do not as a country need to wait for a vaccine to stop the virus from spreading. Why? The surgeon general, Trump's appointee, is urging people to wear masks and keep social distancing particularly as we enter the flu season. Dr. Fauci says that if we take those precautions the nation could escape a double whammy this fall. That is the pandemic and the flu season.

Still, a key model is now predicting up to 20,000 new deaths just over the next three weeks.

HARLOW: We are also learning a growing number of Americans are worried about the race for a vaccine and only half that were polled would get one if it were available today. After weeks of contradicting messages from scientists and the White House, that is not wholly surprising.

And this is stunning. A new report that the administration -- that there was a plan by USPS in April to send masks by mail to the American public. Five masks to every single household. But the plan was scrapped because it might cause panic. But clearly, it could have saved lives.

Also this morning, a source confirming to CNN that CDC testing guidance put out last month you'll remember that said that basically asymptomatic people do not need to get tested unless they're part of a vulnerable population. Well, that was published to the CDC Web site by the administration without going through the normal scientific review process of the CDC. So clearly, there's a lot to get to this morning. Our Elizabeth Cohen

joins us.

Good morning, Elizabeth. What do we know? What more do we know about these --

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.

HARLOW: I mean, that testing guidance because it was so counter to everyone else and we're all scratching our heads and now we know that it wasn't really from the CDC?

COHEN: Right. Exactly. I mean, you remember, Poppy, we were talking about this a couple of weeks ago on your show and we said, what the heck?

HARLOW: Yes.

COHEN: This doesn't look like something the CDC would say. I said the CDC, this is what they do for a living is public health communications and what they're saying makes no sense and the way that they said it, you had to read it like three times to figure out what they were saying exactly. And it seemed very odd.

Well, now "The New York Times" has reported and our Dr. Sanjay Gupta has confirmed that this wasn't written by the CDC was not reviewed by the CDC. The Department of Health and Human Services sent it down to the CDC in Atlanta where it was supposed to be reviewed and get a process that takes several days of back and forth among scientists and communication specialists, and then have whatever resulted from that published.

But that's not what happened. It was just plunked on to the CDC Web site and people at the CDC woke up to find it. Now Dr. Robert Redfield, the head of the CDC, says that it did get proper review and consultation from experts -- Poppy and Jim.

SCIUTTO: So, Elizabeth, we had seen in the last couple of weeks some promising trends, right, that most or many states were seeing a downward trend in new infections. That's now turned around when you look at the map. Is there something happening more broadly here?

COHEN: Yes. I think really broadly we should be thinking about this as a roller coaster ride. Buckle up because it's going to go up and down, up and down until we do the right thing, which is to wear masks, do social distancing, and hopefully soon get a vaccine. So what we're seeing here is that in some states the numbers are going up. You can see that in these dark red states that there are more than -- sorry, these states have a more than 50 percent rise week to week.

So these are going in the wrong direction. So I think whenever we say, oh, good, the numbers are going down, we have to remember that is not a static conclusion. They could go right back up again. Certainly the start of school, the start of universities, where students are living together. Certainly has aggravated that over the past couple of weeks. HARLOW: Elizabeth, before you go, what is happening in Europe right

now? Because the World Health Organization is warning of a very serious situation there.

COHEN: Right. So this is -- you know, the roller coaster in the U.S., that's an international roller coaster. It seems to be going around the world and that's because viruses do what they do. If you take precautions the numbers go down. If you lighten up on the precautions the numbers go up.

So let's take a look specifically at two countries. Let's take a look at the U.K. first.

[09:05:02]

They saw 167 percent increase in cases this month. Also the number of hospitalizations doubles every eight days. If you take a look at France, they had more than 10,000 new cases reported on September 13th and a 25 percent increase in ICU patients this week. So I think we should just get used to this, that this is what happens. A virus is a virus. When people get together, it spreads more quickly. When people stay apart, it spreads more slowly.

HARLOW: Elizabeth, thank you for all of that reporting.

Let's discuss this further with Dr. Abdul El-Sayed, epidemiologist and public health expert.

Doctor, it's really good to have you. On the vaccine, those numbers that we talked about are startling, the Pew numbers, that show only 51 percent of Americans will get a vaccine now if offered. And the woman who we're going to talk about a lot more in the next block with all that she has to say, Olivia Troye, who was the senior adviser on the White House Coronavirus Task Force.

Here's what she says about it. Quote, "I would not tell anyone I care about to take a vaccine that launches prior to the election. I would listen to the experts and the unity in pharma, and I would wait to make sure the vaccine is safe and not a prop tied to the election."

I mean, that coming from someone who was key on the task force until just, you know, weeks ago? What do we do with that as a public?

DR. ABDUL EL-SAYED, EPIDEMIOLOGIST AND PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERT: It is astounding to watch how politicized this vaccine has become. And all of that is led by the president at the top. You know, we know that this is an election season and we also know that this president cares more about this election than he has cared about public health over the past eight months since this pandemic has been a reality in American's lives.

The fact of the matter is that a vaccine has to be led by science. We have to know that it is safe and it is effective. And we have watched as the administration has pressured its FDA to issue emergency use authorizations for medications before the scientific consensus had really formed, whether that was hydroxychloroquine, which was later shown really to be unsafe, or it was convalescent plasma for which really the jury, the scientific jury, is still out.

And so what we're hearing is good advice about listening to the science, not the president. The science, not the political spin masters. The science about whether or not a vaccine is safe and effective. And the key point here is this. A vaccine is one thing. But a vaccination is another. And of people don't trust a vaccine it doesn't become a vaccination in someone's arm and that really is what's going to create the acquired herd immunity that we need to take this down.

SCIUTTO: So, Doctor, you cited a few of the instances where we have seen politics trump science, right? And we know that the president is willing to do this. It's in his public comments but my concern is when you look at the pattern is you see the institutions bending to that. Right? I mean, you saw the CDC guidelines get juiced in effect by political appointees. You cite the convalescent plasma, you know, which was staged on the eve of the RNC, right, exaggerating the health benefits of this.

You know, the pushing of hydroxychloroquine and now the vaccine. I'm just worried from your point of view, are the institutions failing us here, right? In terms of pushing back on politics getting in the way.

EL-SAYED: Well, that's right, Jim. It is really sad to see as someone who is a former health director in a major city in the United States who's worked very closely with scientific leaders at the CDC to watch how the politicians have driven that CDC and marginalized it, and then frankly just taken its voice and left it for broke. And that really is sad to see. You'd want to see more pushback but the frank matter here is that all of these institutions are led by political appointees of the president.

But I will say this. Science is a language and, you know, you can tell me that somebody is speaking Spanish or speaking Arabic to me. If I don't speak Spanish or speak Arabic, I don't know. But if you have enough people who you know speak that language telling you, yes, that person is speaking that language and this is what they're saying that this vaccine is safe and effective, then we can trust it.

And so all is not lost here. We would want to see more pushback from these institutions but at the same time, the scientific community is robust and we need to be listening to the scientists on this. And if they say that it is safe and effective, and we as a community agree on that, then it is safe and effective. But we need to get the politics out of the way here.

HARLOW: Let's listen to this quickly from one of the top scientists on this, Dr. Fauci.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: We still should be getting our flu shots for sure the way we always do. But it is entirely possible that despite the fear that we're going to have a double whammy, namely flu season superimposed upon the continuation of COVID-19, that may not be the case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Because we're not gathering in big groups for the most part and most of us are wearing masks. Do you agree with him?

EL-SAYED: Well, the good news is that social distancing works for any infectious disease.

HARLOW: Yes.

[09:10:02]

EL-SAYED: And so the fact that we are socially distancing and wearing masks protects us both from COVID-19 and from the flu. We have to still wait and see and, you know, the important point that Dr. Fauci made is we may not see a double whammy, but the key point here is still this. Number one, if we don't want to see a double whammy, get your flu shot. Number two, make sure you wear a mask. And number three, keep practice safe social distancing.

SCIUTTO: Yes, I mean, so the places where that's happening, right, you may be more protected from the flu. Sad fact is there are many parts of this country where it's still not happening because it's, like so many things, become a political issue where it shouldn't be.

Dr. Abdul El-Sayed, thanks so much.

EL-SAYED: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Still to come this hour, a former Trump White House aide is sharply criticizing the president's response to the pandemic and is now endorsing Joe Biden. One of a series of former Trump administration officials. What she's saying about the administration's actions behind the scenes on coronavirus, it will alarm you.

HARLOW: Also Scranton versus Park Avenue. Former Vice President Joe Biden's strategy to try to take on the president. More from his CNN town hall ahead.

And millions of Americans that are desperate for relief, as Congress battles over stimulus. One bipartisan group of lawmakers has a plan but does it have legs? Bipartisan co-chairs of the Problem Solvers Caucus join us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:15:00]

HARLOW: This morning, the White House is calling former top aide to Vice President Pence, Olivia Troye, quote, "disgruntled" as she slams the president's coronavirus response. And this life-long Republican goes on to endorse Joe Biden. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) OLIVIA TROYE, FORMER AIDE TO MIKE PENCE: It was shocking to see the

president saying that the virus was a hoax, saying that everything is OK when we know that it's not. The truth is, he doesn't actually care about anyone else but himself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: It's a remarkable view not just from inside the administration, but inside the coronavirus taskforce, particularly following revelations from Bob Woodward's book. White House reporter for the "Washington Post" Josh Dawsey joins us now.

You know, here's the thing that strikes me from her account, and that is how consistent it is with accounts we've heard from other former senior administration officials who were Trump appointees, from Mattis to Kelly to Tillerson to others.

And that is that the president puts his own personal political interests over national interests or even an Alexander Vindman, right? When you go to Ukraine and the impeachment scandal. Beyond using that word "disgruntled", which the White House uses for all these folks to some degree. What answer do White House officials have to that specific criticism that the president is putting politics over -- in this case health and the pandemic response?

JOSH DAWSEY, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, the White House says obviously, but it's not true whether the president cares about all Americans and points to the ventilator response and to, you know, the travel ban and other things that the president's repeatedly said.

But what she pointed out internally is that, you know, in these taskforce meetings, there were lots of doctors, Dr. Fauci and others who she praised extensively, and said really cared about health care -- she even breaks Vice President Pence.

But she said the president and often blindsided other aides on the taskforce including her with comments about hydroxychloroquine or attacking the CDC or if it's school guidance or you know, saying things at the podium that the taskforce just did not agree with or contradicted the data.

And she said the president's position was essentially -- that he did whatever he wanted on the taskforce -- operated in a different lane.

SCIUTTO: Yes --

HARLOW: Josh, your reporting so interesting and so important. You broke this story. For anyone who hasn't read your extensive report on her, can you just detail what is most striking to you about it? I was certainly struck about her vaccine warning that we read to folks last block.

DAWSEY: What was most striking about it is that she said -- you know, she organized these meetings, she was in every single meeting of the coronavirus taskforce. She put together the agenda. And what was striking about the reporting is her perception of the president and his response to the coronavirus. Olivia Troye, who, you know, was picked by the vice president to be his homeland security adviser, who, you know, was quite there for all sorts of meetings for two years.

And you know, it's just a dim view of the president in her telling, where he was not concerned about lives. He wanted to just reopen the economy, she said. There was concern about his re-election and there was a little concern again, in her telling about the -- you know, 200,000 or so people that have died so far.

Obviously, the White House disputes that vigorously, but she, you know, is a life-long Republican, had worked as a career official, mind you, in several agencies, but had been around the block. And when she came to this position, she said she was quite startled at what she saw.

SCIUTTO: Yes, the story in there about the president using one of the taskforce meetings to rant about his coverage on "Fox News" as well. Josh Dawsey, great reporting as always, good to have you on the program.

DAWSEY: Thanks for having me.

SCIUTTO: Now to the election, you might have heard of it. We are, if you can believe it, 46 days out and both President Trump and Joe Biden are in one of the big swing states, Minnesota. This as Biden continues to criticize the president's slow pandemic response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE FOR 2020: The idea that you're going to not tell people what you've been told, that this virus is incredibly contagious, seven times more contagious than the flu. But he knew it, he knew it and did nothing. It's close to criminal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Arlette Saenz is in Scranton, Pennsylvania, this morning, good morning Arlette. We are 11 days into the first presidential debate, people will see it right here on CNN, and Joe Biden painted a clear picture last night of how he plans to keep making his case to voters. What struck you the most? Like what did you not heard before?

[09:20:00]

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Joe Biden is clearly eager to keep the coronavirus pandemic and the president's handling of it front and center, calling the administration thoroughly irresponsible and also hammering away at the president for downplaying the significance of the pandemic.

As you heard in that clip saying that it's close to criminal. Biden has kept on this message that the president in his view has failed in his handling of the pandemic. And that's a central issue that he and his campaign believe will carry with voters heading into November. Now Biden also unveiled another new message last night. He was

speaking near his hometown, birth place of Scranton, Pennsylvania, trying to lean into his middle-class, working class roots as he framed this election as one between Scranton and Park Avenue. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: I really do view this campaign as a campaign between Scranton and Park Avenue. And I really mean it because, you know, the way we're raised up here in this area, awful lot of hard working people bust their neck, all they ask for is a shot. Just a shot. All that Trump can see from Park Avenue is Wall Street. All he thinks about is the stock market.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAENZ: So Biden there trying to appeal to working class voters in areas like Scranton, Pennsylvania. But also drawing that stark contrast with the president. And this is the kind of line that you see sometimes unveiled just before a debate, since it is now 11 days away. Biden saying last night that he is looking forward to debating the president.

SCIUTTO: You know, Arlette, listening to the town hall last night, you could see how front and center the COVID response, but also more generally, healthcare is in people's mind, you know, whether it'd be Obamacare, pay to healthcare workers, et cetera. I'm curious, in Pennsylvania and now in Minnesota, as you're there with the candidate, do you find that those are the questions that folks are asking most often? I mean, is that the issue, particularly in a state like Minnesota?

SAENZ: Well, Biden will be heading there a little bit later today and we'll see whether he will take any questions from voters there. But certainly, health care is an issue that the Biden campaign has also tried to promote. Talking about the Affordable Care Act. Today in Minnesota, we are going to see dueling events as both Joe Biden and President Trump are in the state on the same day. We have reached that point in the campaign cycle where you have the candidates campaigning for those same type of voters.

He will be up in the iron range, northern part of Minnesota, trying to appeal to those working class voters. We've seen them place an emphasis on manufacturing. And Minnesota is a state that President Trump narrowly lost back in 2016. He had hoped that he could try to take it away from Democrats this time around. But right now, polling has shown that Joe Biden has a lead over the president in Minnesota.

HARLOW: Arlette, thank you for the reporting from Scranton this morning. Ahead for us, Joe Biden and Donald Trump will face off in the first presidential debate 11 days from now. Of course, you can watch it play out live right here on CNN. Our special coverage starts Tuesday night, September 29, 7 O'clock Eastern.

SCIUTTO: All right, other major story we've been following the whole week. We're learning this morning about the death of a firefighter now in California. They've been risking their lives. More evacuations are under way where many wildfires are still burning completely uncontained. We're going to have a live report from there next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:25:00]

HARLOW: Well, the U.S. Forest Service has confirmed that a firefighter has died while battling a California wildfire. This is the fire, by the way that --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

HARLOW: We told you about, that was sparked --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

HARLOW: By that botched gender reveal party where, Jim, they used I guess, like fireworks.

SCIUTTO: I know, fireworks in dry weather. I mean, listen, folks, just don't do it. The El Dorado fire, it started Labor Day weekend. It has now burned 20,000 acres, it is one of 57 uncontained large fires raging across the West Coast. CNN's Paul Vercammen is on the ground near Los Angeles where another fire, the Bobcat Fire is causing more evacuations. Paul, you know, I was asked -- try to give us a sense of the scale and the progress in containing these things.

PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the scale is massive. The progress is ever so slight as the weather has calmed, but then that grim news that you talked about, Jim and Poppy, we understand now that a firefighter on that El Dorado or gender reveal fire has died. That firefighter missing yesterday.

hey are waiting to notify the family, and until they do so, they are not revealing the identity. And then back here live, this is the Bobcat Fire. This fire has been menacing the Los Angeles County area for a long time. Look behind me, you can see it burning in the forest.

Bobcat fire now 55,000 acres, it's only 9 percent contained. They're working hard to get containment on many of these fires throughout the west, but we have almost 6 million acres burned. We have a situation where we have 30,000 firefighters on the lines.

The smoke, horrendous. The L.A. zoo closed. Yosemite National Park closed because of unhealthy air. Oregon especially hard hit, 2,000 structures lost also 1,000 acres burned. But in a moment of probably needed levity, some firefighters after a grueling shift broke into song.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SINGING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take me out to the fire, take me out to the line, bring me some sawyers and axe or hose, I don't care if I ever get home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VERCAMMEN: And you heard them say sawyers.