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Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg Dies At 87; Trump Adviser: President Wants To Announce Pick Before First Debate; Package Filled With Ricin Mailed To White House, Addressed To Trump; Trump: At Least 100 Million Vaccine Doses Before End Of Year; CDC Reverses August Testing Guidelines Posted By HHS In August; Fauci: Almost Nonexistent Flu Season In Australia Good Indicator For U.S. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired September 19, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:20]

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM, as we continue our special, breaking news coverage of the death of Supreme Court justice, Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Thank you for being with us. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York.

And less than 24 hours after Justice Ginsburg's death, we are already seeing how the 2020 campaign is being reshaped. Sources telling CNN that President Trump wants to announce his nominee before the first presidential debate, setting up an historic fight over the seat held for nearly 30 years by the leading voice of the court's liberal wing.

Ruth Bader Ginsburg, a champion for women's rights, a pop-culture icon, to millions. She died, yesterday, at the age of 87, after a battle with pancreatic cancer. Ginsburg's dying wish, as dictated to her granddaughter we are told, was to not be replaced until a new president is installed.

But, from President Trump, this morning, and I'm quoting here: We were put in this position of power and importance to make decisions for the people, who so proudly elected us. The most important of which has long been considered to be the selection of United States Supreme Court justices. We have this obligation, without delay.

And already, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is vowing whomever President Trump nominates will get a vote on the Senate floor, despite his 11th month blockade of President Obama's pick for the Supreme Court four years ago.

Around Washington today, flags are flying at half staff. Flowers and signs line the steps of the Supreme Court in honor of a woman who spent decades chipping away at gender discrimination.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUTH BADER GINSBURG, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: In my lifetime, I expect to see three, four, perhaps even more, women on the high court bench. Women not shaped from the same mold but of different complexions. I, surely, would not be in this room, today, without the determined efforts of men and women, who kept dreams of equal citizenship alive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Diminutive in size but tough as nails. She became known for her powerful dissents, especially as the court she served moved for the right.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GINSBURG: It helps, sometimes, to be a little deaf. I have followed that advice assiduously, and not only at home, through 56 years of a marital partnership. I have employed it, as well, in every workplace, including the Supreme Court of the United States. When a thoughtless or unkind word is spoken, best tune out. Reacting in anger or annoyance will not advance one's ability to persuade.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: By the time she was in her 80s, Ginsburg achieved rock-star status among a generation of younger women, who embraced her nickname the "Notorious RBG" and they flocked to buy t-shirts and merchandise with the moniker.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a mug of her in my room. It says history in the making.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have her sticker on my computer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just ordered tons of merch.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Notorious RBG.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Much more on her legacy, in just a moment.

But first, the historic fight over naming a replacement that could shape the court for a generation, to come. Democrats have already called on Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell to hold off on trying to push through a Supreme Court nominee this year. But McConnell wasted no time pledging, last night, that he will bring Trump's nominee to the floor.

Let's go to Manu Raju on Capitol Hill.

And, Manu, this is going to be a giant chess game with the election so close. And just a short time ago, I understand Senate Democrats held a strategy session. What are you learning?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, chess game and a furious fight ahead. Democrats had a rallying call of sorts. Just earlier this afternoon, the Democratic leader Chuck Schumer detailing what is at stake with the Supreme Court pick, and urging his caucus to remain united, throughout this fight, and saying, quote, let me be clear: If Leader McConnell and Senate Republicans move forward with this, then nothing is off the table for next year. Nothing is off the table.

Now, what could that mean? If the Democrats take the Senate, then, at that point, there is a big push to remove the filibuster. There is also a push to advance legislation that would add additional seats to the Supreme Court, and that will be something that will be discussed and pushed, if the Republicans succeed in moving ahead.

And that's exactly what Mitch McConnell is planning to do.

[16:05:02]

He is preparing for a floor vote for the eventual nominee, whenever President Trump actually announces someone. They had a discussion, last night, both Trump and McConnell, about potential picks. And also, Mitch McConnell is urging his caucus to essentially keep their powder dry. Don't come out against moving forward before the election because he's making it clear, if they don't move forward before the election, perhaps they'll move after the election but before January and that's when a new Senate will convene.

Now, all this comes as there is focus on a handful of senators who could determine whether or not the Republicans will get a majority vote in the Senate to confirm a nominee.

Some of those senators include Senator Collins of Maine. She has been concerned about moving forward with the nominee before the election -- this close to an election.

Joni Ernst also up for re-election, she has been open to confirming someone this year. Cory Gardner of Colorado, he has not said whether or not he would get behind someone to be confirmed at this moment.

Kelly Loeffler, she's also facing reelection this fall. She supports to confirming a nominee.

David Perdue has not said one way or another.

Thom Tillis, also a vulnerable Republican, he says he does support moving forward.

There are also some other senators we looking at. Mitt Romney, he's not up for re-election. Has not said what he would do.

Chuck Grassley, the former chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, told me in July that he would not confirm a nominee before the election. However, now, in the aftermath of Ginsburg's death, his office is not saying whether he still holds that position.

Now, Republicans have to reconcile their past opposition for moving forward to a nominee in a presidential election year when they held vacant that Supreme Court seat in 2016 when President Obama was president. And it -- Lindsey Graham, who is chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee now, opposed moving forward on a nominee in 2016, and said he would move forward with a nominee now is reconciling that difference.

This is what he said back in 2016 and 2018 about why it doesn't make sense to move forward with a nominee in an election year.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I want you to use my words against me. If there is a Republican president in 2016 and a vacancy occurs, in the last year of the first term, you can say Lindsey Graham said, let's let the next president, whoever it might be, make that nomination. And you could use my words against me, and you'd be absolutely right.

If an opening comes in the last year of President Trump's term, and the primary process is started, we'll wait until the next election. And I've got a pretty good chance --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're on the record.

GRAHAM: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.

GRAHAM: Hold the tape.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now, he says this is different now because in the aftermath, that fight over Brett Kavanaugh, that vicious, messy fight, that led to the confirmation of the Supreme Court justice. He said the rules have changed and now he supports confirming someone. He is the chairman of that key committee. He's also up for re-election in the fall.

So, you are seeing Republicans shift their positions as they fall in line behind the president, Ana.

CABRERA: Just when we thought 2020 couldn't get anymore unpredictable.

Manu Raju, thank you for your reporting.

Joining us now is former California Senator Barbara Boxer, who assumed that office in 1993, the same year Ruth Bader Ginsburg was elevated to the Supreme Court.

Senator, thanks for being with us.

I want to play you something Ginsburg told our Poppy Harlow. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: In your first argument as an attorney before the court, you quoted the feminist, the attorney/abolitionist, Sarah Grimke, who said in 1837, I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren --

RUTH BADER GINSBURG, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: Is that they take our feet off our necks.

It had -- it had a certain shock quality, which is what I intended. I wanted to get the attention.

HARLOW: Are their feet off our necks, today?

GINSBURG: Much more so than I ever dreamed would be possible in my growing up years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Senator, you were there on the Hill as she blazed this trail on the highest court. Just how much of an impact did she have on the fight for gender equality? Both, symbolically and through her actual work on the Supreme Court?

BARBARA BOXER (D-CA), FORMER U.S. SENATOR: Well, Justice Ginsburg was an iconic leader for equality, for all, before I even got the joy of voting for her. And she got over 90 votes. It just shows you how different things are today. How bad they are today, in terms of a lack of bipartisanship.

And, you know, I thought, thank you, Bill Clinton, if you're watching, because you gave us Ruth Bader Ginsburg. And, you know, she was beautiful to listen to. And, you know, a 5-foot tall woman with power. And the power came from her ideals.

And her main ideal that she worked for, every single second, every single hour of every single day, was equality, which is a beautiful word.

[16:10:07]

And frankly, with all the fights and battles we're going through, now, knees on necks and it's -- it just reminds us that this freedom and this equality has to be fought for, every day. So with her passing, it's incumbent upon all of us to pick up that passion for that simple, simple value of equality. It's -- it's really central to America.

CABRERA: We're looking at a photo of the two of you. The one in which you were wearing sort of a blue suit outfit, light blue. You're sitting next to hear. You're leaning in and touching her arm.

Do you remember that moment, at all? And what was going on in that picture?

BOXER: Well, because in this crazy, technological world, I don't see the photo. But I was with her, many times, and one of the wonderful things one of my wonderful mentors did, Barbara Mikulski, was to work across the party lines to have dinners with the Supreme Court women. You know, Justice O'Connor, Ruth Bader Ginsburg. We got more and more with a couple wonderful, new additions, with the women of the Senate. And in the beginning, we were a very small group. We were six. We went

from three to six. And then, we had nine. And then, now, they have over 25.

So, those moments of being with her and listening to her. But one very special moment happened when she was celebrating -- I think it was her 50th wedding anniversary. And the phone rang and my staff said it's Justice Ginsburg.

And she said, you know, I want to do something special for Marty. He deserves it. I want to take him to the wine country of California for our celebration of our anniversary. You have any ideas?

Well, I had many ideas. And we helped her plan that. So, spectacular person, all around, and a real leader.

CABRERA: Yeah. No doubt about it. And you talk about these endearing qualities of her, romantic side that we did not know a ton about. We do know how much she loved her husband, though.

I want to ask you about the politics and the situation that is happening right now on Capitol Hill. We just had that report from Manu Raju about some of the political maneuvering happening. At least four Republican senators, previously, said they would oppose a vote for a new Supreme Court justice before the election, all of their comments were before justice Ginsburg died but they included Senator Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski, Lindsey Graham, and Chuck Grassley -- although, Graham, as we reported, appears to be backtracking.

How do you see this playing out?

BOXER: Well, I have to say, if I'm in South Carolina and I have a choice between Lindsey Graham and Jamie Harrison, and character is important and your word is important, and not being a hypocrite is important, and not being a phony is important, I don't vote for Lindsey Graham.

This is an outrage. He said save the tape. That's how much this commitment means to me, that I would never vote for someone in an election year.

So I think, you know, there are tapes. And there are words. Not to mention, Mitch McConnell's own words.

So I think that the Republicans will pay a heavy price, if they -- if they go forward with this. Because everybody heard what they said when they -- when they walked away from Merrick Garland, didn't even give him a hearing, such a qualified individual. So, it's -- it's ugly.

And I know Chuck Schumer has said, and your reporter Manu confirmed, that everything's on the table for -- for the Democrats. And if I were still there, I'd be leading the charge for it.

Now, I don't -- I was a strong voice to not do away with the filibuster. I didn't even want to do away with it for Supreme Court judges. As a matter of fact, when we did do away with it for lower judges, we kept it for Supreme Court judges until Mitch McConnell got rid of it.

The idea behind it was let's get a justice that everyone can come around, like Ruth Bader.

CAMEROTA: Right, but it's gone now.

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: That is yesteryear, this is a different political time we're in. I just don't see how Democrats have any leverage right now.

BOXER: Well, I just said what it was. If we take over, we do away with the filibuster. If we take over, then it's going to run more like a parliamentary system, and we're going to get things done. And -- and the rate they're going, just on the issue of them walking away from their own commitments. Who would vote for a person like that?

If I tell my constituents, write it down. Put it on tape. I'm going to vote yes on something. And then, I vote no on something. I ought to be booted out of there as fast as I could be.

[16:15:02]

CABRERA: It sounds like a good thought. But politics are at play.

And Lindsey Graham is in a Republican -- heavy Republican state. So it'd be more advantageous, I think, for him to vote for a nominee that the president puts forward than to say I'm just going to stay true to my word. Wouldn't he get backlash from Republicans?

BOXER: Of course. But polls are tied. I don't know if you've seen the polls. Jamie Harrison is tied.

Things are changing, right now. People care more than they ever did before. Young people see nothing's being done act climate. They see what's happening with racial injustice and, you know, equality across the board.

And COVID -- today, more than 200,000 people. So -- and Lindsey Graham's all over the place. One day, says the president's awful. Next day, says I love him. It's the weirdest kind of situation.

So, no, I don't agree with you that Lindsey is safe. He's not safe. As a matter of fact, I think they called it a tossup there.

CABRERA: Right now.

BOXER: So if you're caught (INAUDIBLE) to the people, you'll play a price. That's what I think. I do.

CABRERA: Former Senator Barbara Boxer, thank you as always for joining us. I appreciate your perspective and your thoughts especially about -- on the late justice. Thanks again for being here.

BOXER: Thanks, Ana. CABRERA: Tomorrow, Bill Clinton will join CNN's Jake Tapper on "STATE OF THE UNION" to reflect on the life and legacy of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who he nominated to the Supreme Court back in 1993. That's right here tomorrow morning at 9:00 Eastern and Pacific.

Up next, a look at Justice Ginsburg's friendship with the late Justice Antonin Scalia, including this moment of them laughing at her drinking wine and nodding off at the State of the Union.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GINSBURG: I wasn't 100 percent sober because before we went to the State of the Union, we had dinner together. And Justice Kennedy brought --

ANTONIN SCALIA, FORMER SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: Well, that's the first intelligent thing you've done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:21:11]

CABRERA: They were the most unlikely of friends but they shared the strongest of bonds. Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Antonin Scalia, no doubt the court's most famous odd couple friendship. She was a progressive icon, while he was a giant for conservatives.

But Ginsburg speaking at Scalia's funeral in 2016, said it was all about making their differences work.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GINSBURG: We're once asked how we could be friends, given our disagreement on lots of things, Justice Scalia answered, I attack ideas, I don't attack people. Some very good people have some very bad ideas. And if you can't separate the two, you've got to get another day job. You don't want to be a judge, at least not a judge on a multi-member panel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: And joining us, now, Christopher Scalia. He is the son of the late Supreme Court Justice. He is also the co-editor of "Scalia Speaks, Reflections on Law, Faith, and Life Well Lived."

Christopher, your friends -- your families were friends. I'm really sorry for your personal loss, you may be feeling today. What does this loss mean for you?

CHRISTOPHER SCALIA, AUTHOR, "SCALIA SPEAKS": Well, you know, obviously, I think with -- with much of the rest of the company -- country, I just feel a deep loss for a great public servant. And she was a wonderful friend to my family, especially my mother and my father, as you were just saying.

And I -- I just feel, again, as I think a lot of people do. Over the past few years, we've lost some legends. I'd like to include my father in there. And just -- just the idea that neither of them are alive anymore and that -- and that her husband passed away about ten years ago, too, which -- it's just very sad to me, on that personal level.

CABRERA: Do you have a favorite memory of justice Ginsburg? Because I know your families used to do New Year's Eve together, for example.

SCALIA: Yeah.

CABRERA: I know your parents would travel with the Ginsburgs.

SCALIA: So, I was -- I was not one of the cool kids to be invited to the New Year's parties. But I did have the good fortune to attend one or at least kind of crash one for a few minutes. It was -- it was really months -- only months after her husband, Marty, died. This was New Year's, 2010-2011, I think.

And she and some other people were at my parents' house. My wife and I were visiting. And we -- we ended our New Year's celebrations before they did. They tended to stay up pretty late, actually.

And Justice Ginsburg just told me a story about when she -- I think it must've been when she really first noticed the man who became her husband. She was describing a college, English class. I think she must have taken her freshman year at Cornell.

And the professor, who, by the way, was Vladimir Nabokov, the great novelist, the author of "Lolita", among others. He taught her English, which I just think is incredible. But he was going over a test the students had just taken about a Charles Dickens novel and only one student had gotten a 100 and it was -- it was Marty. And he announced that, and the whole class turned around and looked at -- at this genius, I guess.

And the way she described it, I think that was when she -- he really kind of caught her eye. Or at least, that's the first time she really remembered -- remembered seeing him.

She just had so much joy in telling the story. At the time, I was an English professor, so I think she knew I would get -- I would especially get a kick out of that story and that -- and that context. And it was just kind of a beautiful tribute to how long their relationship was.

[16:25:04]

CABRERA: They had such a love story.

And there was a different kind of love story between, you know, your dad and her and their friendship. I want to play a clip where Justice Ginsburg shares some of the funnier moments between her and your father in the courtroom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GINSBURG: Justice Scalia would whisper something to me. All I could do to avoid laughing out loud, I would sometimes pinch myself. People sometimes asked me, well, what was your favorite Scalia joke? And I said I know what it is but I can't tell you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Everybody asking what was the joke? Do you have any idea what that joke might have been?

SCALIA: I -- I don't know the joke. I wish -- I really wish I did. But yeah, they cracked each other up. He definitely made her laugh but she made him laugh, too. And there were other things. They loved opera.

They even made cameo appearances in operas together. That clip you showed earlier suggested they both liked drinking wine. Marty was a wonderful chef, a great cook. My father was a great eater, so I think that connected them, too.

And they both were born in New York, different boroughs, a few years apart. But I think they kind of shared that background and were familiar types to each other --

CABRERA: How do you think they made it work, you know, to have such divergent views but also be so close? What kind of lesson might we all take away from them?

SCALIA: Well, first of all, even though they had divergent views, they had a good working relationship. They helped each other with their opinions. They identified flaws in each other's arguments during the drafting process, even when they were on opposite sides.

So, I think, remarkable and pretty selfless. But they just focused on what they had in common. And you know, they didn't compromise their beliefs because they were afraid of what the other might think. They didn't pull any punches in their dissents against each other's majority opinions. But they knew that wasn't the most important thing they shared. And so, they were able to focus on that bigger picture.

CABRERA: Chris Scalia, I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for joining us.

SCALIA: Thank you, Ana.

CABRERA: Breaking news just into CNN. A statement from Republican senator, Susan Collins, saying, whoever wins the election in November should decide next -- the next justice of the Supreme Court.

Let me read you the statement. She writes: In order for the American people to have faith in their elected officials, we must act fairly and consistently, no matter which political party is in power. President Trump has the constitutional authority to make a nomination to fill the Supreme Court vacancy, and I would have no objection to the Senate Judiciary committee's beginning of the process of reviewing his nominee's credentials. Given the proximity of the presidential election, however, I do not

believe that the Senate should vote on the nominee, prior to the election.

More on our breaking news, in just a moment. Stay with us. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:32:24]

CABRERA: More breaking news now. CNN has learned a package addressed to the president containing the poison ricin has been intercepted by law enforcement.

I want to bring in CNN's Evan Perez with details.

What do we know?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Ana. This was a letter addressed to President Trump and it was intercepted before it got to the White House.

There's a procedure for all packages, all mail headed to the White House. It is inspected, off sight, a couple miles away from the White House. And that's where this letter was found.

What happens is there's a lot of suspicious packages that come to the White House. So they tested it a number of times before they confirmed it contained the substance ricin, which is highly lethal, highly dangerous.

We have a statement from the FBI I'll read you. It says, "The FBI and our U.S. Secret Service and U.S. Postal Inspection Service partners are investigating a suspicious letter received at a U.S. government mail facility. At this time, there's no known threat to public safety."

One additional fact we have learned is investigators are looking into whether this package, whether this letter, was sent in the mail from Canada. Again, this is an investigation that the FBI is pursuing.

And because, again, this is a very highly dangerous substance, they have to go through all of the mail facilities to see where -- whether any parts of it may have been contaminated any -- any of the mail facilities that it went through.

CABRERA: Also, with us, CNN counterterrorism analyst, Phil Mudd.

Phil, is ricin something easy to make? And what would be the next step in tracking this person down?

PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Pretty easy to make but hard to disseminate. I think that the chance the president of the United States would get a letter where he would ingest or inhale ricin is pretty low. The investigators steps, Evan mentioned the federal agencies involved.

The postal service will look at where the letter came from. Obviously, there's a postmark.

The Secret Service is going to look at things like, do we have other letters that look similar to this over time.

The FBI obviously has a range of options here, starting with DNA. Did somebody lick the seal on that envelope? Are there fingerprints on that envelope?

The feds have a lot of history on this, Ana, so my guess is they will find someone eventually.

CABRERA: OK, Phil Mudd and Evan Perez, thank you both for jumping in and bringing that news to us.

You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. We have more on our breaking news. Maine Senator Susan Collins, a Republican, says the Senate should wait to vote on President Trump's nomination to the Supreme Court until after the election.

[16:35:56]

Stay with us. Much more, straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: The number of Americans dying from the coronavirus is on the verge of topping 200,000.

And the president is feeding a desperate country a new claim, without evidence to back it up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As soon as a vaccine is approved, the administration will deliver it to the American people, immediately. Distribution will begin within 24 hours after notice.

We'll have manufactured at least 100 million vaccine doses before the end of the year. And likely, much more than that.

Hundreds of millions of doses will be available every month. And we expect to have enough vaccines for every American by April.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: One-hundred million doses of what, specifically? And enough for everyone, by April?

Right now, there's no vaccine. It doesn't exist, just yet. It is in development. There are multiple vaccines in development. Maybe, one day, we will have that vaccine. But nothing has proven safe, yet.

[16:40:04] Joining us now, Dr. Celine Gounder, a former New York City assistant commissioner of health and host of the "Epidemic" podcast.

Dr. Gounder, does the president's timeline, as he laid it out, make sense?

DR. CELINE GOUNDER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Ana, I think we will have a vaccine approved later this calendar year. But to say that it's going to be widely available to the general public is just deceiving the general public.

A more realistic timeline, which has been laid out, also, by Dr. Fauci at NIH, by Dr. Redfield at CDC, is more along the lines of having the vaccine widely available towards the end of the spring, around May.

And that we would be doing mass vaccination between May and the end of the summer, say, August.

So, to say that this is going to be available tomorrow essentially and that we're going to be able to vaccinate everybody right away is just -- is unrealistic.

CABRERA: A Pew Research poll out this week says only 51 percent would be willing to get a vaccine. That's a 21 percent drop from May.

Now, if that's still the number when we get a vaccine, will it even be effective?

GOUNDER: And that's a great point. Because if you don't have the population widely vaccinated, simply not going to help us control the infection.

So it really is worth having the extra couple weeks, couple months, to make sure we complete phase-three clinical trials to assess safety and efficacy so that we all feel confident that this is an effective vaccine, that this is a safe vaccine, and so people accept it.

CABRERA: That trust, obviously, is so important when we are talking about the vaccine, as well as how people can protect themselves.

And yesterday, the CDC reversed its August testing guidelines. And now, is, once again, recommending that people who have come in contact with someone who has the coronavirus get tested, even if they have no symptoMs.

Now, we've learned that those August guidelines were actually drafted by HHS. They were posted on the CDC Web site, even before the CDC could vet them. Remember, those guidelines had a lot of experts scratching their head.

How does this happen?

GOUNDER: Well, HHS is also staffed by not just experts but also a lot of political appointees.

So it functions as a much more political organization, than does the CDC, which is essentially career, lifelong, science bureaucrats who have been doing these jobs under both -- both political parties, administrations of both sides.

And so, it's just a very different process at the CDC, that's really driven by science, as opposed to HHS.

CABRERA: But do you think the CDC's credibility has taken a hit? Because it wasn't just those testing guidelines that we now learned were put on there by HHS, on the CDC Web site.

And nobody at CDC said we didn't put those there. These weren't vetted. This wasn't from. Until, you know, the reporting that came out this week.

And then, there was the reporting last week of course about the report that was altered by HHS that was going out to doctors.

What about the credibility of the CDC?

GOUNDER: Well, I think a lot of people working at the CDC feel incredibly demoralized and emasculated in a sense, where their power has been taken away, that their power to vet the science has been taken away.

And where I think the question of credibility is an issue is will they stand up to HHS or the president if they are trying to enact rules or have vaccines approved, for example, when the data's not there.

And that could set them up for a very difficult political showdown.

CABRERA: Before I let you go, this week, Dr. Fauci gave some good news perhaps. He flagged a nearly nonexistent flu season in Australia.

Is that a good indicator in the U.S.? Is it possible to avoid that double whammy of coronavirus and the season's flu?

GOUNDER: So much of this hinges on whether people wear masks regularly. In some parts of the country, that has been the case, in other parts of the country, not.

Masks will protect you against coronavirus, against the flu, against the regular common cold viruses.

So I certainly hope that we have similar behavior here to what was seen in Australia.

Because if we do have influenza on top of coronavirus, it's really going to be a lot for us working on the front lines in hospitals and clinics to sort through and manage.

CABRERA: Dr. Celine Gounder, thank you so much for your insights. Appreciate you being here.

Coming up, more on the legacy of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, a pop culture icon, whose life inspired movies, memes, and a memorable characterization on "SNL" that she approved. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED SNL COMEDIAN: He thinks his confirmation hearing was unfair? My confirmation hearing was they threw me in a river to see if I would float.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED SNL COMEDIAN: And I did.

(LAUGHTER)

[16:44:55]

UNIDENTIFIED SNL COMEDIAN: I floated on top like a little water bug.

(LAUGHTER)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Supreme Court justice and style icon may not be synonymous but Ruth Bader Ginsburg certainly liked to make a statement with the distinctive collars she sported, including one to issue dissenting opinions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[16:50:06]

GINSBURG: So you can see many varieties. And there are more up on top. This is the latest one I've gotten.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So people just send them to you?

GINSBURG: Yes.

What's in this one? Oh, this one was given to me by the University of Hawaii, with French lace and the beads are from the beach. It is a gift from law clerks a few terms back.

And this is what I use for announcing a majority opinion. And this one is for dissenting opinion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Joining us now, Betsy West, director of the documentary film "RBG."

Betsy, I know you spent a lot of time with Justice Ginsburg while making her documentary. What does her loss mean to you?

BETSY WEST, DOCUMENTARY FILM DIRECTOR: Well, it is profoundly sad, for me, obviously, and for the country. She leaves an extraordinary legacy.

I mean, even if she hadn't become a Supreme Court justice, she -- what she did to secure equality for American women, you know, earned her a place in history.

CABRERA: What do you remember from the last conversation you had with Justice Ginsburg?

WEST: You know, I -- I had the opportunity to tell Justice Ginsburg, in January, after a Q and A that they did with Bill Moyers, here, in New York, which was very lively and very interesting.

I had a chance to tell her that my daughter, Jane, is going to law school. And she was very excited.

CABRERA: What do you think Justice Ginsburg wanted her legacy to be?

WEST: You know, she told us in our interview. We asked her exactly that question. And she said that -- she was very modest about it.

She said I wanted to be remembered as someone who did what she could, with whatever limited talent she had -- that's how she put it -- to move society along in the direction I would like it to be for my children and grandchildren.

CABRERA: And she, herself, broke so many glass ceilings. She moved society forward.

Remind us of all of the firsts she accomplished in her long, storied career and her -- her journey in life.

WEST: Yes. Well, you know, she faced discrimination, herself, as one of nine women in Harvard Law School. And then, at the top of her class, also, at Columbia Law School, where she graduated.

She comes out and she really -- she can't get a job in the early 1960s. Discriminated against because she's a woman, because she's Jewish, and because she is a mother of a young daughter.

And, you know, many women, at that time, were discriminated against. I mean, it was just taken for granted that women had second-class status.

But Ruth Bader Ginsburg found a way to go on and tackle that kind of discrimination that was woven into our society and to help -- to help herself and every other American woman.

She brought a series of cases, as the head of the ACLU Women's Rights Project, that challenged laws that treated women differently than men.

And she -- she really did -- she was the legal architect of the women's movement.

CABRERA: As you got to know her, what were you most surprised to learn about Justice Ginsburg while making the film, something we may not know about her?

WEST: You know, she -- I mean, I think people do know that she was a passionate opera fan. She loved the arts. This was her escape. I think music was one of the ways that she escaped. But she also had a great sense of humor. And I loved seeing how she

reacted to the Notorious RBG phenomenon, which, of course, she didn't really initiate, in any way.

And she didn't even know who Notorious B.I.G. was, at first, and what was reference was. And yet, once she understood it , she embraced it.

And I think had a great sense of herself because it really was kind of a joke, in a way. And yet, there was something so powerfully true about the analogy.

She was a very tough, powerful, determined woman.

CABRERA: I love the scene in the movie where you show her physical toughness that she's working out in the gym.

And we know she, you know, really did that throughout her life in order to stay physically healthy and keep her mind, also, healthy by increasing the blood flow.

[16:55:08]

I mean, she was just amazing in so many different ways.

Betsy West, thanks for sharing your memories and your knowledge of this amazing woman.

WEST: Thank you, Ana.

CABRERA: CNN will be airing "RBG" tonight. Stay here on CNN. That's at 10:00 Eastern.

And one more programming note. The most anticipated of the election is almost here. Donald Trump and Joe Biden face off in their first presidential event. Watch it all play out live on CNN, with special coverage of their debate starting Tuesday, September 29th, at 7:00 Eastern.

We'll be right back.

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