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The U.S. on the Verge of Surpassing 200,000 Coronavirus Deaths; Updated CDC Guidance Says COVID-19 Can Spread Through Air. Aired 9- 9:30a ET

Aired September 21, 2020 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good Monday morning, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

This morning the president says he will announce his nominee for the Supreme Court either Friday or Saturday, just days after the death of iconic Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. A fierce showdown already under way on Capitol Hill as Republicans vow a swift confirmation despite of course the election being just a few weeks away, and having denied President Obama the same right many months before an election in 2016.

HARLOW: We are following all of these developments, but first, the U.S. this morning is on the verge of surpassing 200,000 coronavirus deaths. Cases are rising in 28 states, and the former FDA head this morning is warning the country needs to brace for a very difficult road ahead. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. SCOTT GOTTLIEB, FORMER FDA COMMISSIONER: Well, I think we have at least one more cycle with this virus heading into the fall and winter. If you look at what's happening around the country right now, there is an unmistakable spike in new infections and you're also seeing declines in hospitalizations that we were achieving starting to level off. I would expect them to start going up again as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Still though, despite that, and despite the numbers and the very sad death toll that we're approaching, the president this morning just moments ago said again that we're rounding the corner in this pandemic.

Let's begin with our Alexandra Field. She joins us with the latest on the sudden spike we're seeing across the country.

Good morning, Alex.

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, good morning, Poppy. That number, 200,000, will stand alone for being catastrophic but all of the other numbers that we are looking at this morning show that this crisis is not behind us, not by a long stretch, and certainly appearing to get worse. If you take a look at the average for new cases nationwide, what we're seeing over the last week is that the metrics are steadily ticking upward.

Over the last seven days we're averaging more than 41,000 new cases across the country every day. When you see how that looks on a map, well, it looks like this, the majority of states across the nation seeing an increase in cases, some 28 states seeing an increase in new cases of more than 10 percent in just the last week.

Yes, those numbers are alarming. You point out the fact that the former FDA commissioner, Dr. Scott Gottlieb, is calling it what it is, an unmistakable spike. The question now is whether we are seeing the kind of bump that we saw following Labor Day, if this is a similar bump to what we saw after July 4th and Memorial Day, or if we are seeing a real resurgence going into the fall and winter months, something that public health officials have been expressing deep concern about -- Poppy, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes, those drops after each of those holiday weekends was clear, the data was clear.

Alexandra Field, thanks very much.

Another update, the CDC has changed its guidance relating to COVID-19 again. It now says that the coronavirus is airborne and can travel through the air beyond six feet, of course the distance we've been focused on for months. That means that poorly ventilated spaces in particular are dangerous.

HARLOW: With us now our senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen.

Good morning, Elizabeth. Do we know why this change from the CDC? And I guess, for anyone that is confused because it's gone back and forth, what is the main messaging for them this morning about this spread?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: So, Poppy, let me answer your second question first. Let's talk about exactly what the CDC is now saying, what is new on their Web site. What they're saying now is that coronavirus most commonly spreads when people are within six feet of each other. That's like -- think of it as a direct hit. You're talking to someone, they sneeze, they cough, maybe they spit a little when they talk, we all know people like that, and wham, you are just hit with that droplet. That's not if new.

This is the new part. They say there is growing evidence -- that's their phrase -- that droplets can remain suspended in air. In other words I talk, I spit a little and those particles just going to hang out. You're on the other side of the room, you come walking into my air space, you could inhale those droplets. That is different. You weren't within six feet of me, you were further than six feet away. So what they're saying now is stay at least six feet away from others whenever possible. That at least part is new. They weren't saying that "at least" part before. Now to answer the first part of your question, Poppy, this is not new.

In early April, the National Academy of Sciences wrote a long, scientific document for the White House explaining all this, saying essentially what I just said.

[09:05:05]

It is unclear why it took the CDC from April to September to put this on their Web site.

SCIUTTO: Elizabeth Cohen, thanks so much.

Listen, confusing for folks at home to follow throughout but as we know, they're learning about this each step of the way. Thanks so much.

Joining me now is Dr. William Schaffner, he's professor of infectious diseases at Vanderbilt University Medical Center.

Doctor, great to have you on. I want to go to the situation in Europe because that could be indicative for us here in the U.S. but let's start here in the U.S. Former FDA commissioner Scott Gottlieb as reported said there's an unmistakable spike in new infections in this country.

How concerning to you and what is the likely cause behind that spike?

DR. WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, PROFESSOR, DIVISION OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: Yes, Jim, I can't walk down the sunny side of the street. I'm with Dr. Gottlieb. This is very, very concerning. You know, it's the holidays, it's schools reopening, it's colleges reopening, and there are a lot of people who just want to throw off the traces, that is put their masks aside. Put all that together and over much of the country we have continuing, if accelerating transmission of this COVID virus.

This virus is not going away. It's not going to disappear. We all have to pay attention to all the behavioral strictures, mask wearing, distancing, and avoid large groups, and we have to do it in a sustained fashion.

SCIUTTO: You say accelerating, too. That's concerning. Is there a particular focus of concern in terms of spread? I know that Europe has been saying that young people in particular are helping lead to the increased spread of the virus.

SCHAFFNER: Well, we've seen outbreaks in colleges. We know that young people and young adults and older adults are going to bars and spending more time with each other without masks in indoor spaces. Those are exactly the environments where this virus will spread.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

SCHAFFNER: My son lives in Berlin. He tells me that there's a large group, they've had demonstrations there about people who don't want to wear their masks. So there's real COVID fatigue out there. SCIUTTO: Yes.

SCHAFFNER: And people want to get back to the old normal.

SCIUTTO: Yes, and there were similar protests in the U.K. as well. OK, so let's talk about what we could learn from Europe because Europe, listen, it had its problems but it was better controlling the outbreak in particular the percentage of deaths as relating to broader cases, was lower than the U.S. What are we learning from the resurgence in Europe?

SCHAFFNER: I think, Jim, we're learning Europe is learning our lessons, that if you open up casually instead of carefully, you're going to get spread of the virus and as a consequence of course, there will be more hospitalizations and more deaths.

This virus is unforgiving. It's not going to go away. It has job one from its perspective -- infect another person.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

SCHAFFNER: That's its only job and it's doing it very well.

SCIUTTO: OK. Let's talk about the significance. We briefly covered just before you here, and that is the idea that droplets from this, infected droplets can sort of maintain themselves in the air for a longer period of time and therefore cause danger beyond six feet. How significant is that discovery?

SCHAFFNER: Well, everyone, myself included, is now going to have to acknowledge that it's not just within six feet, it's beyond that also and it behooves all of us who have responsibilities for enclosed spaces to review our air handling, to see if we can get better circulation of air and more air exchanges in those enclosed spaces so they're not stuffy because, although that's probably less of a problem than in close, it's also a problem, so it's something else we have to consider.

SCIUTTO: OK, so in particular, what kind of enclosed spaces? Airplanes have the advantage of constantly recycling and filtering the air every couple of minutes. I imagine that provides a decent level of protection. How about restaurants? How about bars? How about school classrooms?

SCHAFFNER: You mentioned them all, exactly what we need to spend more time on, and that will probably require some upgrading of air handling systems, I'm afraid, and of course that will be costly.

SCIUTTO: Dr. William Schaffner, it's good to have you on. So much to throw at you here but we appreciate you giving people information they can use.

SCHAFFNER: My pleasure.

SCIUTTO: Well, still to come this hour, as we just mentioned, coronavirus is surging in the U.K., other parts of Europe as well. What the numbers there could mean for the U.S.? We're going to be live.

[09:10:08]

HARLOW: The battle over the high court, the president says he will announce his pick to replace Ruth Bader Ginsburg at the end of this week. Will his pick, though, get a vote before the election? We're live on Capitol Hill.

And take a look at this, this is a live image right outside of the high court, a memorial for the late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. We will speak to one of her former clerks who says that she was a huge role model for her both in law and in life.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Well, this morning, a colossal battle on Capitol Hill already in full swing as Republicans press ahead to confirm a Supreme Court pick from the president that is going to come, it sounds like, Jim, at the end of this week.

SCIUTTO: It's pretty remarkable. It was only Friday night when we learned the news of RBG's passing.

HARLOW: Right.

SCIUTTO: CNN's Lauren Fox joins us now with the latest.

[09:15:00]

Lauren, simplest question for you, I know Mitch McConnell is doing the same thing. Do Republicans have the vote, and if they do, does it happen before election day?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Well, I think that's the calculation right now, Jim. I think one thing to keep in mind is that McConnell is talking to his members, he's talking to the president about who could be nominated that would have the support of the U.S. Senate Republicans.

Now, we already know two Republicans, Senator Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins, who is up for re-election in the state of Maine, both have said they're uncomfortable with moving forward before election day, but Republicans have to hold together their conference, but they are able to lose up to three members. So that means that McConnell can't lose four, but he can lose three. He's already lost two, but where those other members would come from, that's an open question. And a couple of members we're watching closely, Cory Gardner, Republican in the state of Colorado who is facing a very tough re-election in a state that has changed dramatically over the last six years.

We're also watching Chuck Grassley; a former chairman of the Judiciary, someone who has said in the past, he does not think a nominee should be moved forward during a presidential election year. He has been silent on where he is at this current moment. Also Mitt Romney, a Republican from Utah who just a few months ago, Jim, moved with Democrats to impeach President Donald Trump on one of those articles. So, that's the lay of the land in terms of members, but there's sort of this old adage on Capitol Hill, which is, when you have the votes, you vote. So while McConnell is going to have these conversations, you can expect that if he thinks he's going to have the votes, he's going to move pretty quickly. Jim and Poppy?

HARLOW: So, Lauren, before you go, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says look, we're not, as Democrats can move to shut down the government to try to block a Senate vote on the president's nominee, but I thought this was interesting when she said yesterday, quote, "we have our options" --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

HARLOW: "We have arrows in our quiver that I'm not about to discuss right now." You always seem to figure out what they're actually talking about behind closed doors. What are those arrows?

FOX: Well, you know, one thing to remember about this entire process is that this is really a Senate game. So, while Pelosi is going to be talking to Schumer about what options exist, we have to look really and focus on what Schumer is telling his caucus. What he said over the weekend was, they are not going to take anything off the table if Republicans move ahead with this nomination process either before the election or in a lame duck. But remember, Democrats aren't in power in the U.S. Senate. There's nothing they can do ultimately to block this nomination. They're talking about future steps they could take, and that all depends on if they win the Senate in November. Poppy and Jim?

SCIUTTO: Goodness gracious, there's just a little going on in this country. Lauren Fox, thanks very much. CNN's White House correspondent John Harwood joins us now. John, I mean, you know better than me, Republicans and the president sense blood in the water over this as we come towards November 3rd. But tell us about the list of potential nominees. What does it look like now? Is there a front-runner?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Jim, there were conservatives advising the president that the smart political play was to hold off on this nomination, not identify a choice before the election in order to keep conservatives hungry, diminish the zeal of Democrats to turn out. But the president is not into restraint, so he is going straight to pore over the list that he has already had in his hand for some time about this potential vacancy. Let's run through some of the leading contenders. First of all, there's Amy Coney Barrett, she is on the Seventh Circuit, a Midwesterner, conservative Catholic, those are key areas for the president, former clerk to Justice Antonin Scalia.

The Democrats believe that she would put in mortal danger, both the right to abortion and the Affordable Care Act. Then you've got Barbara Lagoa; she is the first Latino woman on the Florida Supreme Court, Cuban-American, now, she's a federal appeals court judge, she is on the Eleventh Circuit.

And then you've got Allison Jones Rushing; she is the youngest of the potential candidates, not yet even 40 years old. She is from North Carolina. She now is on the Fourth Circuit, somebody who is not clear what her attitudes are towards LGBT rights, gay marriage, that sort of thing. Now, Amy Coney Barrett seems to be the clear front-runner, everyone agrees on that. She was the runner-up to Kavanaugh when he was selected a couple of years ago. But the president on "Fox and Friends" this morning nodded to both the strengths of Lagoa and Allison Jones Rushing, which is her youth. Take a listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, she's excellent. She's Hispanic. She's a terrific woman from everything I know. I don't know her. Florida, we love Florida. You tend to go young, and I think in almost all cases -- and you could have somebody be on the bench for 40 or 50 years.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

[09:20:00]

HARWOOD: The controlling factor of course is that Democrats are trying to make hay with the hypocrisy of Republicans, having put off the vote on Merrick Garland who was appointed by President Obama four years ago, but President Trump expressed on "Fox and Friends" this morning, the ultimate power dynamic which is, if you have the Senate, you can do what you want. Guys?

HARLOW: Very true. John Harwood, thanks a lot. Let's discuss with Steve Vladeck; professor of law at the University of Texas School of Law and Joan Biskupic; Supreme Court analyst who not only covered Justice Ginsburg for years, but had many critical conversations with her, it's very good to have you, Joan.

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SUPREME COURT ANALYST: Thanks.

HARLOW: Let's not forget in this moment there will be an epic battle that the late justice was confirmed 96-3 --

BISKUPIC: That's right --

HARLOW: That she -- you know, is famous for saying you can disagree without being disagreeable. I guess what lessons are there for us to take away for the next 42 days, not to mention that the epic battle that's coming November 10th over Obamacare?

BISKUPIC: You know, Poppy, that was then, this is now. We're just decades and decades and decades since --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

BISKUPIC: Nineteen-ninety-three when she was appointed and confirmed by that margin, and actually, I remember in the Rose Garden, you had all these Republicans cheering her on when President Clinton named her --

HARLOW: Right --

BISKUPIC: You know, everything is so different now. And you know, it's interesting what you just played of President Trump about expanding, you know, some of the favors that he might be looking at. Clearly, there's something going on behind the scenes in terms of people on the right jockeying for their candidates, because I believe it's Amy Coney Barrett's to lose. But as you can see, we've got others trying to get their nominees forward, and then the crucial part will be when he finally names someone, will he have enough momentum? Will everyone close ranks and support that nominee so that it can speed through the Senate? You know, everything hangs on exactly what Mitch McConnell can accomplish with the Senate. And he is proven back in 2016 and since and many times before that he can control his troops.

SCIUTTO: Steve, I want to look ahead, though not that far ahead because as Poppy noted, ACA comes up before this court in November. Does a conservative court split 6-3 the way it would be if Trump gets this nominee through? Does it block many perhaps most democratic legislative priorities in the court? Does it mean that they would likely die there? I mean, Obamacare being one, but efforts on gun control, climate change, et cetera. I mean, what kind of backstop does that become on a Democratic legislative agenda, even if they were to win the White House and the Senate?

STEVE VLADECK, PROFESSOR OF LAW, UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS SCHOOL OF LAW: I mean, Jim, I think that's exactly right, and I think it would be a very powerful restraint on a one-party democratic rule in Washington. Note, it really in many ways harkens back to the beginning of the new deal when you had Franklin Delano Roosevelt confronting a very conservative, very hostile Supreme Court. And you know, that ended pretty badly for the court. So, you know, I think there's no question that if the president is able to get through really anyone who he's named on his list, this is going to move the court sharply to the right in a way that's going to be a huge --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

VLADECK: Problem for any future democratic administration.

HARLOW: But --

SCIUTTO: Yes, it's relevant because FDR threatened to pack the court, right, to beat back that conservative, you know, bloc and that threat seemed to work there, and of course, now, that subject has risen again. Poppy?

HARLOW: I just was going to note, Steve, that if even -- I mean, even if the president's pick gets a vote before the election, you're still going to have a November 10th argument with -- you know, even if it gets to like eight justices, and if you get a tie, then they're going to uphold the lower court's decision which does knock out a lot of Obamacare. So, it just seems like it's imperiled either way.

VLADECK: There's no question its imperiled either way. What's interesting about this is, you know, the timing is going to matter a lot. The tradition on the Supreme Court is that justices cannot participate in cases that are argued before they're confirmed. So if the new justice is not confirmed before the ACA argument, yes, there's the specter of a 4-4 split. You know, one possibility adopted is that the court will hold the case over, they'll set it for re-argument once the new justice is on the full bench. But this is going to be a specter that looms not just over the ACA case, but over a bunch of other high-profile cases the court's already set to hear this Fall against any emergency applications arising out of election-related litigation in the next two months. So, you know, the timing of this is not just a huge political calculation for the folks on Capitol Hill. It's also potentially conclusive legal calculation for the Supreme Court.

SCIUTTO: You know, Joan, another case that might come before this court in the next few weeks is an election-related case, right? I mean, it's not -- that's not speaking out of hand.

[09:25:00]

BISKUPIC: It's not at all. They have had so many COVID-19 related election and religious cases come before them in an emergency basis where they've had to act, and it has mattered that there were five justices that included Ruth Bader Ginsburg for some of those actions. So, you're exactly right, Jim, that it's going to affect, you know, all manner of emergency requests related to the election before we even get to something that would be like a Bush v. Gore and Bush v. Gore has hung over this election certainly, as it has over presidential elections for the past 20 years.

So, the scenarios for chaos are unlimited. I hate to say that, and one thing I would note is that Ruth Bader Ginsburg -- to get back to Poppy's original question about her admonitions and how she saw life, I remember one of the early opinions she wrote after Neil Gorsuch, President Trump's first appointee came on was to say look, where we're headed. We're headed back to pre-new deal era time and between that and the election, she saw something.

HARLOW: That's a really --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

HARLOW: Interesting point, right? She became the great dissenter, Joan, but that's not what she wanted to be. She wanted to be when she was confirmed almost unanimously, you know, a consensus builder in the courts, but that's not what proved out. I just want to ask you about the really important conversation you had with her in 2014 about nervous Democrats who thought that she should have stepped down and retired then and what she told you?

BISKUPIC: That's so true. Before the Senate flipped, there was so much -- back in 2014, there was so much pressure on her to step down in '13 while President Obama was still in control and had a Democratic setting or even after there was a Republican Senate before we got to 2016. And I said to her, you know, there have been so many progressives who have said you should go now, and she said to me, who are they going to get in this atmosphere? And remember, Poppy, it was not this atmosphere, it was --

HARLOW: Right -- BISKUPIC: Before this polarization, who are they ever going to get

who they would want more than me? Who would be more liberal than me? And so she said that then, but as we all know, she was holding out hope that Hillary Clinton would win in 2016, and wouldn't matter that she had delayed --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

BISKUPIC: Stepping down. Now it matters so much.

SCIUTTO: Yes, a lot of folks made that same assumption. Steve Vladeck, Joan Biskupic --

HARLOW: Yes --

SCIUTTO: I think we're going to be speaking to both of you in the coming days and weeks, more than once --

BISKUPIC: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: As parts of Europe see record surges in coronavirus infections, officials in Britain say they are at a tipping point now and may have to exact -- enact rather, another national lockdown. We're going to take you there life.

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[09:30:00]