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Government Acts to Control COVID-19 Science; President Trump to Nominate Ginsburg Replacement by End of Week; Supreme Court Set to Hear Affordable Care Act Case in November. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired September 21, 2020 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: It said in part, quote, "There is growing evidence that droplets and airborne particles can remain suspended in the air and be breathed in by others and travel distances beyond six feet (for example, during choir practice, in restaurants, or in fitness classes)... In general, indoor environments without good ventilation increase this risk."

And now, the CDC page has returned to saying that COVID-19 is thought to speak mainly between people in close contact, about six feet.

I want to bring in Dr. Chris Pernell to talk about this, she works at Newark University Hospital and she also has a personal connection to this pandemic: She lost her dad to COVID, and right now she is a vaccine trial volunteer.

Dr. Pernell, it's good to see you again. But look at what we're seeing here, this changing in the guidance. What is your reaction to this?

CHRIS PERNELL, PHYSICIAN, NEWARK UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL: Brianna, this is problematic for me. You know, as a public health physician, I have plenty of colleagues who work for the CDC and other federal agencies, and we're used to the CDC being a bedrock agency of science, a bedrock agency of public health. And for there to be this constant back-and- forth and this change, that's unsettling for the public.

We definitely understand that the data and the science is growing, we're learning every day, it's still emerging. But this back-and- forth, this one position one day and another position the next day is disruptive to the American public.

KEILAR: So let's explain what we know about the virus, right? Because at the beginning, there was this question of, you know, people talk -- you know, sometimes people spit a little bit. There was a question of you want to be, essentially, away, out of spitting distance, right? Six feet away.

Then there was this question of once especially you're inside, is there actually tiny little droplets that you can't see that are aerosolized that are essentially floating around with virus in it?

And we now know when we look at what we've seen about indoor dining being a huge risk factor and just really indoors, lack of good air circulation, tell us what we know and how people need to operationalize that knowledge and their behavior to stay safe.

PERNELL: What we know is being as far away from a person as you possibly can be will keep you safe. Six feet was a best guess, a best estimate based on the science as it was emerging. What we also know is being masked is the safest way that you can prevent transmission of the virus.

It took states, it took so many cities across the nation this long and protracted pattern of opening up businesses just allowing indoor dining in certain places because of that, signs that we knew that these respiratory droplets could be spread, that these respiratory droplets could be hanging in the air, especially in places where there's low ventilation.

So for the American public to still be safe and to use good -- what we call "infection prevention" guidelines, it would be to be masked and to be as far away from others as you possibly can, at least six feet.

KEILAR: I also want to ask you about something we saw on Friday, which was the HHS secretary signing a mandate prohibiting the FDA and other health agencies from signing any new rules on vaccines or on any other food or medical topic.

And this memo itself says, quote, "Any speculation about this memo being motivated by policy considerations is utterly misinformed... The memo should have no effect on operational work and does not pertain in any way to guidances or any vaccine or drug approval or authorization. This action will not slow any HHS agencies' work. It is simply the ministerial, administrative act of attaching a signature to a document."

Help us understand what is going on here.

PERNELL: Concerning, right? I go back to this being problematic. This is at a time, we have record levels of mistrust and we have mistrust because this pandemic has been so destructive. And the federal government's response has been episodic at best. And what I mean by "episodic," not one consistent theme, not one consistent strategy.

And so when this happens today, this causes more speculation. Why do we need all these policies or guidelines to be signed off on by the HHS before they can be made public? It seems to take away the aspect that the CDC and other federal agencies are just operating off of the science, but that politics is coming into the picture. And in public health, politics can't come into the picture. Because when politics comes into the picture, people's lives are at stake.

KEILAR: You know the nation has reached -- just about to reach this grim milestone of 200,000 deaths from coronavirus. And today, the president gave himself the highest remarks for his response. Let's listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (via telephone): We're rounding the corner, with or without a vaccine -- they hate when I say that but that's the way it is. We're rounding the corner on the pandemic, and we've done a phenomenal job. Not just a good job, a phenomenal job.

[14:05:01]

Other than public relations, but that's because I have fake news, I can't -- you know, you can't convince them of anything, they're fake. But we have done -- on public relations, I give myself a D. On the job itself, we take an A-plus."

KEILAR: What grade would you give him, Dr. Pernell?

PERNELL: I give him an F. This isn't fake news, we have almost 200,000 Americans who have died because of this pandemic, my father being one of them. Look, I worked in Newark, New Jersey, which was an epicenter of this pandemic, and I saw firsthand the destruction, I saw those lives that were lost and I saw how devastating it was to families.

For the president to be say, oh, this is fake news and I give myself this rating? I don't agree with that. We've lost so many Americans, we've lot more Americans than we have in every world war that we've participated in, other than World War II and the American Civil War. That is a staggering toll, and that's not something we can bury our head in the sand, and that's not something we can turn a deaf ear to, not even the president of the United States can.

KEILAR: Dr. Pernell, thank you so much. And again, I'm so sorry for the loss of your father. I can't -- you're going through something professionally that is -- something that is demanding so much of you and your colleagues, and suffering a personal loss as well. Thanks for coming on.

PERNELL: Thank you.

KEILAR: The daily number of new infections is starting to tick up again, just as we are weeks away from flu season and colder temperatures sending people indoors. CNN's Tom Foreman is with me now. And, Tom, more than half the country is experiencing a rising trend in new cases.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, we have looked at this map over and over again this year, you and I, and we have seen better times -- when it has looked better. That's not now.

Look at this map, 30 states see their number of infections rising over the previous week. Some are holding steady, only a half dozen are watching it decline. This is absolutely a terrible sign.

And if you look specifically at the infection rate in individual places out there, what you'll see is that it is really very, very high on a day-to-day basis. We are now between 41 and 42,000 new cases every single day, up 19 percent from last week. Again, a terrible, terrible trend that we do not want to see in any of this.

And look where it is rising. If you look at across the West and the Midwest, you can see Wisconsin, one of the highest states. Idaho, South Dakota, where they had that great big motorcycle rally and a presidential rally as well. Kansas, Iowa. Many of these are places that are very strong in support of President Trump.

Now, why is it rising right now? There are many different possible reasons. One reason may be that school is going back in, maybe there were a lot of summer gatherings, maybe it's just that people have grown fatigued and they're getting tired of hearing about masks and about distancing and all the things they have to do. But we do know that those things do make a difference.

And when you look at these numbers, Brianna, forget all your politics, just look at the numbers. The numbers say we absolutely have not turned a corner, and we may not even have a corner in sight -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Tom Foreman, thank you so much for that.

And the numbers are climbing, ever higher. You saw them there, Tom showed them to us, from this pandemic. And during that time, we don't want to lose sight of the people who are behind these statistics, and the families that are grieving the loss of their loved ones.

In New York, Dr. Adeline Fagan was a 28-year-old OB-GYN who worked a rotation in the E.R. to help with the influx of COVID patients. She fell ill on July 8th, and on August 4th, she was put on life support. Then days later, she developed a brain bleed and she passed away.

Her dad wrote this about her, quote, "Our beautiful daughter, sister, friend, physician, Adeline Marie Fagan, M.D., passed away. We want to sincerely thank all who supported Adeline and us through this difficult time. The number of well wishes and caring people humbles us.

"Even in this darkest of times, there are good people willing to share a piece of themselves for the sake of another. If you can do one thing, be an 'Adeline' in the world. Be passionate about helping others less fortunate, have a smile on your face, a laugh in your heart, and a Disney tune on your lips."

And then in North Carolina, a couple married for more than 50 years died of coronavirus only minutes apart. Sixty-seven-year-old Johnny Lee Peoples and his 65-year-old wife Darlene Peoples were admitted to the hospital August 11th. When it became clear that they wouldn't survive, they were placed in the same room on September 2nd. They were taken off ventilators and they died holding hands.

Darlene was supposed to retire from her job at LabCorp the day before she died. Johnny was an Army veteran. And this is a couple that is survived by three children, nine grandchildren. Their son Shane says the family feels cheated. You can't blame him, right?

[14:10:09] Here is part of what he told CNN and posted to Facebook. Quote, "The message our family would like to convey is that COVID is real. It's not a hoax or a joke. Our parents took the proper precautions, but tragically still had contracted the virus. They both had pre-existing conditions. Just keep in mind, these didn't kill my parents, COVID-19 did.

"My parents weren't just a blessing for me, my brother, my sister or spouses and our children, they were a blessing to every person that met them. My mom had the most beautiful soul of anyone you could have met. She was very generous with the love that she had for everyone.

"I'm not sure if my dad ever met a stranger. He could strike up a conversation with anyone and make them smile. He went years coaching youth sports and loved helping these children become better people. Without them, this world just got a bit more gloomy."

And sadly, there is no end in sight as we head into the fall. We're back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:15:28]

KEILAR: We have some breaking news, a federal judge dismissing a lawsuit from the Trump campaign challenging Nevada's new mail-in voting law. In this law, enacted because of the COVID pandemic, all active voters receive a mail-in ballot, whether they ask for one or not.

The president has falsely claimed that universal mail-in voting will lead to widespread voter fraud. There is zero evidence of that, and the judge agreed, saying that the campaign arguments are too speculative and that they failed to prove there was a, quote, "substantial risk of putting the election in jeopardy."

President Trump is now moving quickly to replace Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. In an interview this morning, he provided this timeline.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TRUMP (via telephone): There are actually five I'm looking at, it's down to five. And we're, you know, they're all... it could be any one of them. I'm going to make a decision on either Friday or Saturday. I will announce it either Friday or Saturday. And then the work begins.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

KEILAR: Once Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell gets the green light, he will put into motion what could be a confirmation vote before the election. Congressional correspondent Phil Mattingly, joining us now from Capitol Hill. Tell us what we should be expecting here, Phil.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Look, I think right now Brianna, all eyes are on Senate Republicans. If Senate Republicans have the votes, if they have at least 50 of their 53 members ready to move forward, ready to vote yes on whoever President Trump selects later this week, then they can move quickly and they can likely not be blocked at all.

There are some procedural options that Democrats have here. But if Republicans have the votes, Republicans can move this forward, and that is precisely what Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is trying to do.

When the news of the death of Ruth Bader Ginsburg first started to trickle out, McConnell sent a message to his members and made very clear, in that letter to his colleagues, if you are thinking about speaking out against having a vote, against moving forward -- like, say, Republicans did in 2016 when they blocked President Obama from his selection -- hold your fire, basically keep your powder dry was the direct quote from that letter.

And that means all eyes right now are on a small subset of those Republican senators. We have already seen two, Brianna -- Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, Susan Collins of Maine -- say they don't believe there should be a vote or consideration of a nominee before the November 3rd election. Collins, saying she believes the winner of November 3rd should be the one who selects the next pick.

That's two. They can afford to lose -- McConnell can afford to lose three, so now all eyes are on three other senators. Senator Mitt Romney has not made a statement yet, we're told he likely won't until Republicans meet for their closed-door lunch tomorrow. Obviously, he bucked the president on one impeachment charge last -- well, it was a couple months ago, feels like about 10 years ago now --

KEILAR: That's right.

MATTINGLY: -- also keeping an eye on former Senate Judiciary Committee chairman Chuck Grassley, who obviously shepherded the Brett Kavanaugh nomination through. He said he didn't believe that hearings should be held prior to this moment; he hasn't made a public statement yet.

And also keeping an eye on a couple of other members as well. Cory Gardner, I think, being the one everybody has an eye on, one of the most endangered Republicans coming from a mostly blue state in Colorado right now.

I think the bottom line right now is this, Senate Republicans will be back tonight, McConnell will meet with his leadership team at about 5:00 p.m. Everybody is waiting for tomorrow, when Senate Republicans meet for that closed-door lunch. What they say, coming out of that lunch, will largely dictate how this process moves, how fast this process moves and if there could be a new Supreme Court justice confirmed before that November 3rd election.

But also know, Brianna, McConnell's expected to speak on the Senate floor in just a short minute, right about 3:00 p.m. He should lay out some sense of the path forward when he talks -- Brianna. KEILAR: All right, Phil, thank you so much for that report.

And if President Trump does get a third justice confirmed, Obamacare is likely dead. The Trump administration asked the Supreme Court to invalidate Obamacare over the summer, and a new justice would mean a six-to-three conservative majority on the bench.

Since the pandemic began, an estimated 12 million Americans have lost their employer-based insurance, and the end of Obamacare could mean the loss of coverage for more. Chief Washington correspondent for Kaiser Health News Julie Rovner is joining us now. Julie, thank you for being with us.

JULIE ROVNER, CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, KAISER HEALTH NEWS: Thanks for having me.

KEILAR: The Supreme Court is scheduled to hear the constitutionality case of the Affordable Care Act the week after the election in November. Where does that leave the ACA?

ROVNER: Well, in peril. No one took this case very seriously when it was filed back in 2018. It was filed by a group of 20 Republican attorneys general and a couple of governors, and they charged that because Congress had eliminated the penalty for not having insurance as part of the tax bill, that the whole law is not unconstitutional.

And they found a district court judge in Texas who agreed with them, and then it went to the appeals court who sent it back to the lower court, but then the Democratic attorneys general -- who are defending the law because the Trump administration is not -- asked the Supreme Court to basically take it up this year and decide it before the election, and the court agreed to take it up sooner but not before the election.

[14:20:20]

And so now, we're facing this possibility that with another conservative justice, even if Chief Justice Roberts were to rule in favor of the law -- which he's done twice -- that might not be enough.

KEILAR: If -- and we're just looking at what our correspondent Phil Mattingly showed us. If in the end, there are enough Republicans who say, you know what, I don't actually want to move forward with a confirmation process before the election, if you have a vacancy without Justice Ginsburg, what kind of decisions could then be made about the ACA?

ROVNER: Well, it could end up four to four, which we saw several times when the seat now held by Justice Gorsuch was empty after Justice Scalia died. In that case, either the lower court ruling stands -- and in this case, the lower court ruling wasn't really done yet -- or they could reargue it when there is a ninth justice, that also happens frequently.

So -- and there's of course also a possibility that even with the eight, they could come up with some five-to-three ruling for something, either to get rid of the law or to keep it.

KEILAR: The president has been -- President Trump has been promising a health care plan for some time. He always says it's around the corner and it isn't, right? So he's blown past his own deadline. So if the court does get rid of Obamacare and there doesn't appear to be a replacement, what happens?

ROVNER: We don't know, but it would be a mess according to most of the health experts that I've talked to. It would not only take away, you know, very popular things like letting adult children stay on their parents' health plans and those very popular pre-existing condition protections -- and not to mention the coverage for millions of people on Medicaid and people who have bought their insurance on the Obamacare exchanges, but the Affordable Care Act changed the way a lot of health providers get paid.

There might be no rules for how insurers and hospitals and doctors and everyone else get paid. It could really throw the entire health care system -- even if you're not actually on Obamacare -- into a huge mess.

KEILAR: And what about folks who have now a pre-existing condition because they may have recovered from COVID but they were left with really a pre-existing condition? We've heard that from some folks, right? Who have recovered but not fully --

(CROSSTALK)

ROVNER: Right, even --

KEILAR: -- what happens for them?

ROVNER: Even people who think they're OK, even people who have recovered from COVID, that's not to say that insurers, if they went back to not selling or charging more --

KEILAR: Oh, wow.

ROVNER: -- for people with pre-existing conditions, could just determine that if you've had COVID, we're going to declare you have a pre-existing condition.

KEILAR: That's a very good point. Julie, thank you so much, always great to see you. Julie Rovner, we appreciate it.

ROVNER: Thank you.

KEILAR: Next, President Trump falsely claiming that Democrats made up the dying wish of the late Justice Ginsburg.

[14:23:09]

Plus, the Justice Department labels three American cities as, quote, "anarchy jurisdictions" because of protests there. We're going to explain what that means.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: President Trump is casting doubt baselessly on the final wishes of the late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Ginsburg, the 87-year- old legal icon, reported dictated a statement to her granddaughter in her final days, saying that her most fervent dying wish is to not be replaced on the court until a new president is installed.

Well today, the president added to his long list of conspiracy theories, claiming without any proof that the wish was likely made up by Democrats.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TRUMP (via telephone): That sounds like a Schumer deal or maybe Pelosi or Shifty Schiff, so that came out of the wind. Let's see. I mean, maybe she did and maybe she didn't.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

KEILAR: Ana Navarro is a CNN political commentator. And Ana, you are well aware that the president loves his conspiracy theories. What do you think about this one?

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Listen, it's just a new conspiracy theory. I -- they're hard to keep up with, right? But I -- you know, I just feel that the reaction has been so disrespectful to Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

And whether you agreed with her politics or not, the American people, particularly women, owe RBG such a huge debt of gratitude for how much she moved the ball on equality, on civil rights. Probably, you know, much like Thurgood Marshall, who had also been a civil rights lawyer before being in the court. Not just a judge, not just a lawyer, but a civil rights lawyer.

And it just -- it's so disrespectful of somebody whose body is still warm, who we haven't even buried, who we know what her last wishes are, who was 87 years old, Brianna, with metastatic pancreatic cancer in the middle of a pandemic.

We all saw for years how frail, how small she became, and she was still showing up to work because she wanted to avoid this debacle, this division, this breakup of America that we are about to witness, it's just so disrespectful. It leaves me pained and speechless.

[14:30:05]