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FDA Chief: Senior Staff Reviewed Monthly For Potential Conflicts Of Interest; Dr. Anthony Fauci: "Need To Keep Our Eye" On Long-Term Heart Damage From COVID; Sen. Rand Paul Questions If "Man" Can Mitigate Pandemics At All; Dr. Anthony Fauci Slams Senator Rand Paul: You're Not Listening; Louisville Police Officials Speak Ahead Of Breonna Taylor Case Announcement. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired September 23, 2020 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

DR. STEPHEN HAHN, COMMISSIONER, FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION: Senator, thanks for the question for the first several trials when they mature. We will not yet have data that bridges between a clinical outcome which is the of course, primary end point we've required for showing effectiveness.

That is, the prevention of COVID-19 illness and the development of antibodies. So it is unlikely in that situation, although again, I can't pre-judge the data that we would have a requirement there.

Again, the data will point us in that direction. For subsequent trials if in fact there are bridging data or from the initial trials as bridging data, one could imagine a situation where that would occur. But again, don't know that because we haven't seen the data yet, sir.

SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): Thank you all for your brief answers. I yield back.

SEN. LAMAR ALEXANDER (R-TN): Thank you, Senator Cassidy. Senator Kaine?

SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): Thank you Mr. Chair. And I want to just say a word to you Senator Alexander, how much I'm going to miss you as the Chairman of this Committee. I have learned a lot from you about how to be a good Senator both from working with you, and also from observing you. And I'm going to miss your friendship and I am going to miss your leadership.

Also I just want to acknowledge what it means to have 200,000 people in this country who are no longer with us. My wife and I have four friends who have died of Coronavirus. We've each had Coronavirus, so I guess we're - preexisting conditions now and hopefully some antibodies that might do something.

I agree with the chairman, his opening comments that has of March 1 "The New York Times" said and others stood too Johns Hopkins that the U.S. was the best prepared ventilation to deal with this.

And I believe that, and yet I think the management beginning with our preparation and the resources we have as a country, the management of this crisis has been one of the worst failures of domestic governance in the history of this country.

And don't believe me. I mean, I'm just a U.S. Senator. But when people who are staffers on the Task Force are resigning and saying the same thing, I think we've got to pay attention to that. And I'm also mindful of the fact that during this crisis, not for a second has this administration stopped its concerted for your effort to take health insurance away from millions and millions of people.

I can only imagine how much worse this would be in Virginia, 400,000 people didn't have Medicaid expansion. But many are hoping to see what it will be like if we take health insurance away from millions of people. So we may have the opportunity to see that.

One of the reasons I think this visit has been handled so badly is not because of the dedication of wonderful professionals. I think we have some wonderful professionals who are very dedicated, but I think it goes back to communication.

I was a Mayor and Governor; I dealt with a lot of crises weather crises, hurricanes mass shootings at Virginia Tech when I was Governor. H1N1 when I was Governor, none were at the scale of this. But one thing I learned from dealing with crises is communication. Clear communication to people who are worried is absolutely critical.

And that's where we have fallen down on the job with a president whose preached Hydroxychloroquine or bleach or disinfectant. The day that the administration laid out guidelines for states on reopening, my Governor who is a doctor, so those are good guidelines I'm going to follow them.

The next morning the president tweeted out a tweet against them to liberate Virginia against this tyrannical Governor who is following my advice. And we've seen so many other examples of poor communication or mixed messages and that's really confused the public.

Dr. Fauci, just this week a key communications staffer at the NIH had to resign when he was touted as somebody who is in a conspiracy laden website trashing you, trashing other public health professionals, trashing your advice about mask wearing, suggesting that this was just a hoax or an invented crises.

My four dead friends would say it wasn't an invented crisis. And Dr. Redfield, I was very, very concerned when the CDC changed its website this week about how the virus is transmitted and I'd like to ask the slide be put up. This is going to be very hard to read and so I'll sort of bring it to your attention.

But the CDC, I believe on the 18th of September put up new guidance based on just the ongoing analysis of this crisis about what we could do to protect ourselves and how the virus is transmitted but then almost immediately, reversed it? What about the September 18th version that's on that screen was incorrect?

DR. ROBERT REDFIELD, DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION: Thank you, senator. I think what I tried to comment before, that this was a first draft document.

KAINE: Yes and I heard that. So I don't want to ask that question. What about it was incorrect?

DR. REDFIELD: It's looking at the balance of the component that air- sized transmission plays compared to droplet transmission.

KAINE: Let me read you two examples the version that posted on the 18th. People who are infected but do not show symptoms can spread the virus to others. Clear, unequivocal. But you changed it back to some people without symptoms may be able to spread the virus.

Now, is that phrase, people who are infected but do not show symptoms can spread the virus to others. Is that inaccurate?

[12:05:00]

DR. REDFIELD: Let me just set the stage here. The document that it was reverted to was the original clear document. It wasn't the changed document.

KAINE: I understand that, but back to my question. Is it inaccurate to say people who are infected but do not show symptoms can spread the virus?

DR. REDFIELD: Absolutely they can.

KAINE: That's accurate. Isn't it?

DR. REDFIELD: Absolutely.

KAINE: The document further said there is growing evidence that droplets and airborne particles can remain suspended in the air and be breathed in by others and travel distances beyond six feet, for example, during choir practice, in restaurants or in fitness classes. Is that statement accurate?

DR. REDFIELD: It's definitely evidence of that sir.

KAINE: There is no inaccuracy in this statement.

DR. REDFIELD: Definitely evidence of that.

KAINE: But that was removed in the changed document and it went back to its original form which didn't mention--

DR. REDFIELD: I just want to highlight. It's not that anything was removed.

KAINE: It's not on the website, right. Correct?

DR. REDFIELD: The technically cleared document that went through the proper channels is what was put up. I can say that all of these decisions about the air-sized document were made by career staff individuals far below my level as a director when they saw this non- scientifically cleared document go up. KAINE: Well, I'm over my time. I understand, but the point I'm trying to make is, we need to communicate clearly.

DR. REDFIELD: Yes.

KAINE: When you put up a document at the CDC that you have just testified is accurate, and then it's changed to suggest that the risk is more minimal by someone for some reason, it contributes to the massive confusion that is so, so troubling to scientists and so troubling to people, and then that leads to, gosh, is a vaccine then be safe?

DR. REDFIELD: Yes. And I just want to stress for the American public and for everyone here that that document that went up was a draft had not been technically reviewed by CDC. It reverted to the document that was technically reviewed.

There is going to be a technically reviewed document on this issue coming on the website. But the one that was posted on Friday was not technically reviewed, and as a consequence, the career scientist at CDC took it down, put up the technically reviewed document until the new technically reviewed document could be posted.

KAINE: But you testified that the one taken down was accurate. And that was the point that I wanted to make. Thank you Mr. Chair.

ALEXANDER: Thank you, Senator King. Senator Murkowski.

SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI (R-AK): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen. I want to echo Senator Collins comment and her thanks and appreciation. I share that. I know that there is plenty to argue and quibble about in whether or not communication has been clear or not clear. I think we do owe that to the American public.

But I also know that the work that you and those that are a part of your team is hard, hard, arduous work and you have definitely been put to the task. So I appreciate the work that you do. I want to direct my questions to you, Dr. Redfield.

First, thank you for CDC's effort to help our state and local public health departments. Recently we had a CDC team deployed to anchorage to assist us there with an outbreak of COVID that we had seen within our homeless population.

And you have been, you were quick when asked, and we greatly appreciate that assistance. I want to speak about; I want to ask you about the interim guidance, the interim guidelines that states are considering as their drafting these plans to be submitted for mid- October.

And it goes to Senator Kaine's comments about the communication and the need for additional clarity that I'm hearing from my state. Specifically, and in the allocation, the first allocation--

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: I am John King in Washington. We're going to drop out at least from now this important hearing the Senate Health Committee up on Capitol Hill. Four members of the president's Coronavirus response team delivering testimony, an important testimony.

Number one the Head of the FDA and the other scientists promising no vaccine will be approved even for emergency use here in the United States without independent scientific review. The FDA Commissioner Dr. Stephen Hahn promising he will bend to pressure from no one. That, of course, when the president, repeatedly says a vaccine will be available and will be available soon.

The doctors also making clear that, yes, they have been mix-ups on the CDC websites. They insist that is not because of political pressure from the White House. Democrats voicing a great deal of skepticism about that saying repeatedly guidance has been posted on government websites that seem to minimize.

They will make less serious the threat of the Coronavirus or the actions you should take to protect yourself, democrats pressing the scientists there.

Let's discuss what we've been hearing now with CNN's Elizabeth Cohen, our Senior Medical Correspondent and CNN Medical Analyst Dr. Leana Wen, who is also an Emergency Room Physician at George Washington University.

[12:10:00]

KING: Several interesting exchanges here Elizabeth Cohen, let me start with you. On the pressing issue for Dr. Hahn, who, of course, has watched the president travel the country at his rallies saying the vaccine is coming very soon, very, very soon, very soon, perhaps before the election.

He went out of his way to make clear that we have an independent process. There's a scientific process. And that essentially sticking his neck out saying, I will not accept pressure from anyone, and in parentheses that means the President of the United States.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right, John. And I've spoken to many people who have worked with Dr. Hahn in the past who know him and they say they believed him when he says this. They're not really worried about Dr. Hahn. What they're worried about is that the president will bigfoot Dr. Hahn either on his own or through Secretary Azar.

That's what they worried about. They're not worried about Dr. Hahn's integrity; they're worried that he will get big footed and that the decision will be made for him or basically instead of him.

KING: Dr. Wen, you've been listening to this play out today. What jumped out you as most significant from the point of somebody watching at home trying to figure out which course should they take and who should they trust?

DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Well, I think that's a key word, John. What stood out to me is that, so many of the questions were about trust. And this is a position that I could not have imagined that we would be in several months ago. Because the CDC, the FDA, these are some of the most revered institutions in the country.

They were known for their scientific rigor, for their independence. And I could not have imagined them ream in the public health community outside of the federal government it would be saying things like, I don't know if I trust the recommendations coming out of the CDC.

I don't know if maybe we need external review of these recommendations, because we just don't trust that there isn't political interference. And I have to say, 200,000 deaths later, for us to be cut off at the knees, because the top institutions are unable to deliver on their core duty to the American person to protect everyone's health and well-being, that's a really dangerous place to be in.

And I think so many of the questions today were about trying to reestablish that trust and credibility. I hear the right words, but I want to see the appropriate actions that follow.

KING: One of the problems we've had throughout this pandemic is people trying to play doctors on TV. Today there's a Senator who actually is a doctor, who got into a feisty exchange with Dr. Fauci, and Rand Paul is an Ophthalmologist. He also is someone who believes it was wrong to shut down.

He is someone who believes that if we just let the virus run its course, we will all develop herd immunity. I want you to listen to this contentious exchange where Dr. Rand Paul and the view of Dr. Fauci was mixing statistics or using statistics that don't apply and Dr. Fauci taking very clear issue with the doctor and Senator. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): You've lauded New York for their policy. New York had the highest death rate in the world. How can we possibly be jumping up and down and saying, oh, Governor Cuomo, you did a great job. He had the worst death rate in the world?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, CNN DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: No, you misconstrued that, Senator and you've done that repetitively in the past. They are looking at the guidelines that we had put together from the task force of the four or five things of masks, social distancing, outdoors more than indoors, avoiding crowds, and washing hands.

PAUL: Or they've developed enough community immunity that they're no longer having the pandemic, because they have enough immunity in New York City to actually stop it.

DR. FAUCI: I challenge that, Senator.

PAUL: I'm afraid--

DR. FAUCI: Please, sir. I would like to be able to do this because this happens with Senator Rand all the time. You are not listening to what the director of the CDC said that in New York, it's about 22 percent. If you believe 22 percent is herd immunity I believe you're alone in that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

King: Dr. Wen, you're a Former Health Commissioner for the City of Baltimore. Did anything Dr. Rand Paul or Senator Rand Paul say that make sense to you?

DR. WEN: No. It's not correct. And I think it really is important for us to listen to Dr. Fauci for us to speak with science and public health. In this case, if we want to aim for the so-called herd immunity, through natural infection, we would need at least 60 percent to 80 percent of the population whom have protective response against COVID-19 for us to reach that level.

First of all, we don't know whether immunity lasts, we don't know whether if you get exposed once whether you're protected for months or years. In fact, it looks like it's more on the order of months. But for us to reach that level, we're talking about hundreds of millions of people in this country who would need to be infected.

And that means that we would get at least 2 million people who would have to die to reach that level. And I don't think any of us should be ready to accept that, when there are actually preventive measures that Dr. Fauci and so many of us have been speaking about.

[12:15:00]

DR. WEN: Social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing, avoiding crowds, avoiding indoor spaces, crowded indoor spaces as much as possible. We can do that and save lives. So let's not use these fall statistics to try to minimize the situation when actually we have a very contagious disease among us.

KING: It's a critical point you make. Because throughout this testimony and you have to - we have to connect the dots, because these four gentlemen all work for the president of the United States. They all have to try to push the administration policy knowing the president often pushes back against them.

To your point about herd immunity, Dr. Redfield said, preliminary study shows 90 percent of Americans have not been touched by this virus, meaning 90 percent of Americans is still very susceptible to this virus at a time the president says we have turned the corner.

Admiral Giroir, Dr. Redfield and Dr. Fauci all insisting, wear your masks, stay away from crowds. The president has been traveling the country, large crowds, mocking Joe Biden for routinely wearing a mask. Elizabeth, we talked about this at the beginning.

Another big question is will Americans have confidence if the government tells them we have approved a vaccine? Whether for widespread use or just for emergency use authorization, will the American people trust it after we've seen all of these political tug- of-wars will play out for months? Elizabeth Warren added a new Senator Elizabeth Warren from

Massachusetts added a new twist to that. She suggesting that the Head of the Administration's Operation Warp Speed' Dr. Slaoui has a conflict of interest. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. HAHN: We have established a very bright line between Operation Warp Speed and FDA. We do not participate in their decisions.

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): Dr. Slaoui has conflicts of interest. So to boost the public's confidence, shouldn't he eliminate these conflicts?

DR. HAHN: Senator Warren, I am not aware of the conflicts you're describing.

WARREN: If these conflicts exist, should he resign?

DR. HAHN: So in a hypothetical situation that you're describing, again, I can't prejudge because I don't know the facts. But I do take very seriously the issue of conflicts of interest and how that might affect public perception.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Elizabeth, Senator Warren saying, and I know you've spoken to Mr. Slaoui several times during this process that he has a financial stake in at least two of the pharmaceutical companies now trying to push and rush to get a vaccine approved.

COHEN: So John, I think this is something that will have to really be sorted through by an ethics committee, by people sort of looking at what were his investments, what aren't? All of that is sort of beyond the scope of what could be talked about sort of in a quick, simple way.

Whether or not he has conflicts, though, I think is not what's at the heart of the mistrust. That mistrust is so there. Dr. Wen referred to it. There was a poll that just came out from Pew that says that only half of the Americans say they will get a vaccine. That's a huge problem.

We're not going to reach herd immunity if only half of Americans get a vaccine, probably. That's probably not going to work. And so that is a real problem. And I think what's at the basis of this mistrust is when you see public health officials say one thing and then take it back and then say I didn't really mean it.

I was really struck, for example, when Dr. Redfield testified today. He talked about some guidance that the CDC had put up that said, if you have been exposed to someone with COVID and you're asymptomatic, you're feeling fine, you don't necessarily need to get tested.

And he said that many people misunderstood that and so they changed it. Come on. He's gas lighting people. Nobody misunderstood it. The CDC said something that was not correct and so they changed it. And this is one little chip in the trust of the American people.

If Dr. Redfield could just say, look, we said something in the wrong way. And so, we're changing it, I think people would trust him and would trust the CDC. But when he says something and then says, oh, no. You just misunderstood me. That's gas lighting and people don't trust gas lighters.

KING: Right, especially when these changes in just about every case, the new language tends to minimize. Tends to suggest we need less testing, tends to say it doesn't spread as easily as we might think. So that is what raises suspicion as well Elizabeth Cohen and Dr. Wen, grateful for your time and your important insights.

We are going to take a quick break but we want to tell you before, we got to break some very important developments unfolding.

The Grand Jury that has been hearing the Breonna Taylor case in Kentucky is about to deliver a report. The prosecutor will speak later today as well as the Mayor of the City of Louisville. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:20:00]

KING: I want to take you straight to Louisville, Kentucky, the Mayor Greg Fischer commenting on very important developments in the Breonna Taylor case.

MAYOR GREG FISCHER (D), LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY: And so you can start to head home and be home by 9:00 pm. In addition to these orders our Louisville Metro Government, buildings and the downtown corridor including Metro Hall and City Hall will be closed the rest of today and tomorrow.

And I'm asking downtown area businesses to allow employees to work remotely as well whenever possible. To provide more detail on our plans here is LMPD Chief Robert Schroeder. Chief?

CHIEF ROBERT SCHROEDER, LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY POLICE: Thank you, Mayor Fischer. The past several months have been difficult for our community and for the LMPD police officers who have pledged to serve our public. We as a community need to move forward.

Over the past several months, LMPD has been working with the community to improve our policies and procedures to better reflect community expectations. Today's announcement is yet another step moving ahead for this community.

Whatever the decision is, our officers are prepared to keep doing what they have been doing continuously since May 28th protecting the public while also ensuring the constitutional right for people to express their feelings in a lawful and peaceful manner.

As Mayor Fischer said, we are prepared for gatherings including large gatherings, and we have been working to ensure people have a safe space to do so. In addition to the measures the Mayor outlined, we have restricted the area immediately adjacent to Jefferson Square Park to vehicular traffic allowing pedestrian traffic only.

We have put barriers in place to enforce those safety limits. There is also no parking and limited vehicle access from Broadway North to Market Street and from Second Street to Ninth Street. Anyone heading to the park is asked to ride share to cut down on the traffic, but they must also be prepared to walk a few blocks.

We are facilitating anyone with ADA concerns with access at - market streets. And we are working with residents, business owners and downtown employees to allow needed access. To get into downtown, you may go to second in Jefferson, ninth in Chestnut, eighth in market and seventh and Broadway.

To get out of downtown, you may go to ninth in Jefferson, second in Chestnut, third in market and fourth in Broadway. To ensure adequate staffing we have canceled all vacation requests and off days for our LMPD members.

And while much of our focus is in the downtown area where we have seen previous demonstrations and most of the focus has been centered, I assure you, we have resources distributed throughout the entire metro prepared to meet any challenge we may face.

The LMPD will also be joined by various states, local and federal partners hoping to keep our community safe and we appreciate their assistance. I know for many these steps have been causing inconvenience.

But given some of the crowd sizes we saw in the early days, and what we have seen nationally in protests in other cities we must take these steps out of an abundance of caution to keep this community safe.

Our hope is that people will lawfully and peacefully express themselves. We will not tolerate any violence or destruction of property. Let's all be safe. Then come together and work on the challenges we face as a city and as a nation. Thank you.

[12:25:00]

KING: We were listening to the Police Chief in Louisville, Kentucky, now putting in place, explaining to the public traffic restrictions, curfew restrictions because they are expecting large demonstrations because we are just moments away from a very important legal announcement.

The Attorney General in State of Kentucky about to announce the grand jury's findings in the investigation into the death of Breonna Taylor she 26-year-old EMT shot in her home by Louisville police officers back in March. This is a case that is not only drawn considerable controversy and attention in Kentucky, but nationally as part of this summer's racial reckoning.

I want to bring in our Justice Correspondent Shimon Prokupecz. Shimon this has been a long-awaited decision. And we have the Mayor and the Police Chief essentially trying to prepare the city for what they expect tonight, which is whatever the verdict is out of this Grand Jury, whether or not to go ahead with charges, they expect demonstrations in the City of Louisville tonight.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. They do exactly. And behind me is that park, that area that the Mayor and the Police Chief here are talking about Jefferson Square Park. Since word of the announcement has been getting out, a lot of people have been starting to stream here. Some of these people have spent weeks here, in what has become an area for a vigil, a protest.

But now today finally we get word that this announcement is coming. So just to let you know there are two things happening here. 1:15 just blocks from here at the courthouse a judge is suppose to hear the decision from the Grand Jury, that's about 1:15. The judge will take the decision from the Grand Jury.

And then at 1:30, we expect to hear from the Attorney General who will have a press conference, and talk about charges or no charges. What a lot of people here are waiting to hear is if any of the officers who were involved in this shooting are going to be charged?

If any, if one officer, if all of the officers, and specifically what those charges will be? Of course, a lot of people have been paying attention to one of the detectives who fired ten shots. The police said blindly. He was fired from the Police Department.

His name is Detective Brett Hankison and a lot of attention is going to be paid towards him and to see what this Grand Jury ultimately decided about him and the fact that he did fire these shots blindly as the police said ten times? And just also to give you an idea of everything that's going on around here, John.

The security around this area has been, in the last --- has been very tight. The police put these concrete barriers along the downtown area. This area in specific, that's City Hall. You have the courthouse. You also have the local jail. You had the Department of Corrections. All of this has boarded up.

And this is a lot of what the city the downtown area specifically looks like. You heard the Mayor saying that he wants people to work from home, to allow businesses to work from home. A lot of the stores to remain closed. It was real concern here that there could be some potential for unrest, and that is why they're putting all of these measures in place.

They also have a state of emergency in place here. It's also possible we could see the National Guard called in at some point. So there's a lot going on. The other thing is if, you might see, like some people behind me here. This is an open carry state.

So you're allowed to walk the streets with these long guns. So we've been seeing a lot of that around here as well, John. And so, people here, like the rest of the country, really so many people across the world, are waiting for this decision, which we should start hearing around 1:15, a short time from now, John. KING: And Shimon, I want to walk through some of this for people who

have been following this case around the country. One of the sources of frustration and certainly controversy, and concern, from the many of the demonstrators who just believe they're worried it will be another case of violence against a black American shut down to the rug, if you will, is that the city recently agreed to a landmark $12 million wrongful death settlement with the family.

But this has been six months plus now. Six months plus, which has led to a lot of the community to say, why? Why is it taking so long to investigate this incident that happened more than six months ago?

PROKUPECZ: Yes. And that is the big question. And why is it - why has it taken so long? The other thing is a lot of people feel the pressure that they put on the state, on the investigators here. Finally it let the Attorney General of this state to go ahead and present the case to a Grand Jury.

They feel that pressure, the pressure we've often seen across the country of civil unrest and the protests that we have seen around the country for people calling for police reform.