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CNN: Distressed Birx Questions How Long She Can Remain At White House; Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-MN) On Trump's Racist Attack: This Is My Country; Grand Jury Announces Decision On Breonna Taylor Killing. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired September 23, 2020 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Don't go anywhere, a very busy news day. Brianna Keilar picks up our coverage right now. Have a good day.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Brianna Keilar, and I want to welcome viewers in the United States and around the world.

We begin in Louisville, Kentucky, where any minute now, we're expecting to hear from Kentucky Attorney General Daniel Cameron, who will announce the results of the grand jury proceedings in the investigation into Breonna Taylor's death.

Taylor was killed March 13th when police used a battering ram to break down her door to serve a no-knock warrant as part of a narcotics investigation that centered around an ex-boyfriend of hers.

Her death has sparked widespread protests and calls for charges against the officers involved in that raid. Those three officers, Detective Brett Hankinson, Sergeant Jonathan Mattingly and Detective Myles Cosgrove were all placed on administrative leave.

In June, Hankinson, who indiscriminately fired ten rounds into Taylor's apartment through window coverings, his bullets entering another apartment as well, was fired.

The city beefing up security today in anticipation of this announcement, declaring a state of emergency, establishing a curfew, boarding buildings as well, while canceling vacation time for police officers.

We are closely monitoring the situation there in Louisville and we're going to bring you the attorney general's comments live when they happen.

We also have some other important news. CNN is reporting this hour about the future of the coronavirus task force and one of the key people in charge of it. Sources tell CNN Dr. Deborah Birx has become distressed with direction of the task force and is not sure how much longer she can stay in her position.

I want to go now CNN's Jim Acosta at the White House. Jim, tell us what your sources are saying about this. JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Brianna, what I'm hearing from my sources is that the White House coordinator of the coronavirus task force, Dr. Deborah Birx, is so unhappy with what she sees as her diminished role and the administration's response to COVID-19, that she's not certain how long she can remain in her current position.

Birx has told people around her that she is distressed with what she sees as a bad direction of the task force, describing the situation inside the nation's response to the coronavirus as nightmare-ish. According to people familiar with her thinking, Birx views Dr. Scott Atlas, who is a recent addition to the task force, has an unhealthy influence on President Trump's thinking when it comes to the virus.

A source close to Birx said, her view of Atlas' relationship with the president, and this is a quote, the president has found somebody who matches what he wants to believe, saying of Atlas. And the source went on to say, quote, of Deborah Birx, there is no doubt that she feels that her role has been diminished.

Birx, I am told, believes Atlas is feeding the president misleading information about the efficacy of masks for controlling the spread of the virus. And as we know, the president's rallies have been drawing crowds of supporters who refuse to wear these masks. He's also repeatedly mocked Democrat Joe Biden for using them.

Now, we all know that Birx became a household name during the early weeks of the pandemic appearing with the president at news conferences in the White House briefing room to deliver these sober warnings about the threat posed by the virus.

But, Brianna, as you know, in recent weeks, Birx has not only not been in those briefings, she has been spending much less time with the president, as she is now dispatched to raise awareness of the administration's pandemic efforts, in states where cases of COVID-19 have surged. She's been in states like Missouri and Texas and so on.

And I talked to a separate source who was close to Birx who told me, it is not likely that she is going to step down from the task force at this current time, saying she is, quote, a good soldier. But this source went on to say, her frustration is understandable given her diminished role on the task force.

And we have reached out to Dr. Birx, Dr. Atlas and the White House and waiting to hear back from some kind of comment. Brianna?

KEILAR: All right. Jim, thank you so much for that report, live for us from the north lawn of the White House.

And now, to some important testimony that we've been watching today on Capitol Hill and the urgent fight about the coronavirus. There are a lot of important headlines about the administration responses and that includes on the biggest questions that on the minds of American families. When will a COVID vaccine be available and will it be safe?

Today, four of the nation's top medical officials assured lawmakers the Trump administration is not cutting corners and affirmed the decisions on vaccines will be guided by science and science alone. It's a response to recent controversy that pressure from the president and his people may be interfering in scientists' work and government agencies.

And while senators were pressing the leaders of the CDC, the FDA and the nation's testing czar, it was infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci who had the most heated exchange of the session with Kentucky Senator Rand Paul, who is also a doctor. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: I don't think it's appropriate to compare Sweden with us. Yes, we have -- I think in the beginning, we've done things based on the knowledge we had at the time.

[13:05:04]

And, hopefully, and I am, and my colleagues are, humble enough and modest enough to realize that as new data comes, you make different recommendations. But I don't regret saying that the only way we could have really stopped the explosion of infection was by essentially -- I want to say shutting down. I mean, essentially having the physical separation and the kinds of recommendations that we've made.

SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): You've been a big fan of Cuomo and the shutdown in New York. You've lauded New York for their policy. New York had the highest death rate in the world. How could we possibly be jumping up and down and saying, Governor Cuomo did a great job? He had the worst death rate in the world.

FAUCI: No, you've misconstrued that, Senator, and you've done that repetitively in the past. They got hit very badly. They have made some mistakes. Right now, if you look at what's going on right now, the things that are going on in New York to get their test positivity 1 percent or less, is because they are looking at the guidelines that we have put together from the task force of the four or five things of masks, social distancing, outdoors more than indoors, avoiding crowds and washing hands.

PAUL: Or they've developed enough community immunity that they're no longer having the pandemic, because they have enough immunity in New York City to actually stop --

FAUCI: I challenge that, Senator. Please, sir, I would like to be able to do this, because this happens with Senator Rand all the time. You are not listening to what the director of the CDC said, that in New York, it's about 22 percent. If you believe 22 percent is herd immunity, I believe you're alone in that.

PAUL: There's also the pre-existing immunity of those with cross- reactivity, which is about a third of the public --

SEN. LAMAR ALEXANDER (R-TN): I think we have to reserve this discussion -- PAUL: -- this would actually get --

FAUCI: I would like to talk to you about that also because there was a study that recently came out that pre-existing immunity to coronavirus is that a common cold do not cross-react with the COVID-19.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KEILAR: I want to bring in Dr. Chris Pernell, who works at Newark University Hospital, she has also volunteered in a vaccine trial and she has also lost her father to coronavirus.

Dr. Pernell, that was a pretty interesting back and forth to watch. I wonder what your reaction is to it.

DR. CHRIS PERNELL, PHYSICIAN, NEWARK UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL: You know, once again, Dr. Fauci has proven how great a public health leader, a public servant he is for this nation. And he needed to stand his ground and he did quite expertly.

It's so important that we don't have politicians -- and I'm very well aware that Senator Rand is a physician -- but we don't have politicians presenting facts through a political slant or bent, especially when the public needs to be able to trust the word that's coming from the federal government.

KEILAR: I want to ask you about something that we heard from the CDC director, Robert Redfield, testifying today. He said that more than 90 percent of the population remains susceptible to COVID-19. And he said that, geographically, there is variance in that. In some places, maybe 99 percent of the population is vulnerable.

What is your takeaway from that, especially when health policy officials are aware that people are getting fatigued with distancing and masks?

PERNELL: Look, I know that the public is beleaguered. I know we're fatigued but we have to stand our ground. And we stand our ground by continuing to do those infection prevention guidelines that were summarized in the hearing today.

Wear your mask. Wear your mask whenever you are out in public or you're in a room with other people. Practice frequent hand hygiene. Stay away from crowds. Avoid indoor spaces that are crowded and be outside when you can. And, definitely, we need the science to be able to play out so that we can prove whether or not we have an effective vaccine that can help us turn back this virus.

KEILAR: All right. Dr. Pernell, great to see you. Thanks so much.

PERNELL: Thank you.

KEILAR: The president last night reverting to a tried and true campaign theme, stoking the racial divide that he thinks will help him in the closing weeks of the 2020 election, the president deploying a racist attack against Congresswoman Ilhan Omar. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: How about Omar of Minnesota? We're going to win the state of Minnesota, because of her, they say. She is telling us how to run our country. How did you do where you came from? How is your country doing? They're going to tell -- she's going to tell us -- she is telling us how to run our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: And Congresswoman Omar is with us now. Congresswoman, thank you so much for joining us.

REP. ILHAN OMAR (D-MN): Thank you for having me.

KEILAR: Tell us your reaction to what you heard the president say.

OMAR: I mean, the president clearly loves to prey on people's fears. He spreads the disease of hate everywhere he goes and these cult rallies that he's holding across the country are now being fueled by fear.

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And it is no surprise that he is so fearful of winning Minnesota that he has to resort to this hate, because what he knows is that the Democratic power in Minnesota runs through turnout in the fifth congressional district. And we are going to make sure not only does he not win Minnesota but that he doesn't get back to the White House.

KEILAR: You heard the cheers, right? He said that and the crowd cheered him. And I know that you were recently asked about violent imagery used of you and Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, the congresswoman, and you were asked if any Republicans have reached out to you, even privately, to say this is not okay. And you said that hadn't happened.

I wonder, as you see many people essentially support or support through silence this kind of rhetoric, why you think that is? Why do they do that?

OMAR: I mean, it shows really the ways in which our country has descended into a place where you are being attacked for being an immigrant, you're being attacked for being Muslim and you're being attacked even for being a woman in a political sphere.

You can see just how low, not only Republicans but even their base, has gotten. And when you have attacks coming from the highest office in this country, it is completely reshaping the societal outlooks of our country, and it's quite shameful.

I mean, you know, when I think about the ways in which this president has run our country amok, run our laws amok, you have to remind yourself that he must have really quite missed a step in government 101, because he, you know, asks people, how did -- how does somebody like Ilhan get to tell us how our country is run? Well, somebody like me gets to tell you how our country is run,

because that's mandated in the Constitution. I'm a member of Congress, and that's what members of Congress get to do per Article I of our Constitution. And I get to do that, because I was honored by the voters of the Minnesota congressional fifth district with their votes.

And I like to remind the president and his base, you know, I won my election in 2018 with more votes than 427 members of the House. And we did that by reaching out to people, having conversations, building relationships and speaking to the issues that they were being faced, whether it was brutality within our policing system, whether it was the social ills that existed, that has made some of them not achieve the promise of America, or whether it was talking about economic opportunities that can exist for them.

And we now have a president that has been responsible, truly, for the death of 200,000 Americans, because he did not figure out how to cohesively lead our country while we are dealing with a pandemic, and that includes my own father.

And we have a president that is overseeing one of the most financial devastations our country has ever seen and we are dealing with a clear uprising across the country where people are fed up and are ready for systematic change.

And instead of addressing those issues, he resorts to racist attacks and attacking immigrants. I mean, this is a president who doesn't recognize that his own mother and grandfather were immigrants, that four of his children were born to women who were immigrants. Not only is he a racist, but he's racist xenophobic because he is not against immigration, he is just against immigrants who look like me.

KEILAR: I wanted to ask you. You mentioned the pandemic and we have seen a number of prominent Democrats who have raised concerns about certainly the way the president is talking about an anticipated vaccine and the speed with which he is talking about it. Would you take a vaccine that becomes available, that goes to market in a matter of months?

[13:15:00]

OMAR: I mean, if doctors and scientists like Dr. fauci are taking that vaccine, of course, I will take the vaccine, and I know many Americans will. But we also know that we can't trust the president and take his word, and take a vaccine that might cause harm to us.

We know that every single thing he does is geared towards winning an election. That is why he's downplayed this pandemic. That is why he's overseeing the deaths of 200,000 Americans. That's why we are seeing this president sow the seeds of hate.

That's why our country is more divided than it's ever been. And that's why we continue to have these conversations about the threats that really exists for our democracy and for our nation's existence.

This is going to be an opportunity not only for Democrats to rise up and retake the White House, the Senate and maintain the House, but it's also an opportunity for Americans to respond cohesively and say, this is not who we are. These are not what our founding principles were based on, and this is not the country we want to be.

KEILAR: Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, thank you so much for being with us.

OMAR: Thank you.

KEILAR: We are back to Louisville, Kentucky, where any moment now, we are expecting a grand jury decision on possible charges in the deadly police shooting of Breonna Taylor.

Taylor was just 26 years old when she was shot and killed in her home this past March, as police were serving a no-knock warrant.

The city is bracing now for a potential fallout from today's announcement as we are waiting to see what it may be. Louisville's mayor declaring a state of emergency at this point in time.

I want to bring in CNN Crime and Justice Correspondent Shimon Prokupecz. Shimon, you're there in Louisville. What are you hearing?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So this decision is going to come at any moment now. We were told there're two things happening. We have a court proceeding at 1:15 and then the attorney general will have his press conference at 1:30. So that court proceeding is supposed to take place at any moment, and that is where we will first learn about whether or not any of the officers involved in the Breonna Taylor shooting have been charged.

And as you can see behind me, many of the people in the community and people who have been here for weeks have gathered as they await the decision with us, many of them urging peace at this point. They say, whatever the decision is, there is still more to do. They want to hold the mayor here accountable. They want to hold the police department accountable.

But as you said, there is a lot of concern here for unrest. The city has taken unprecedented steps. They've locked all of downtown. It's locked down. Cars cannot get through here. There's a curfew, which goes into effect until -- which goes into effect at 9:00. It lasts through the morning. The National Guard is on standby and the city has put concrete barriers all across this area to prevent cars from coming through. This is all in anticipation of this decision.

The big focus here legally will be on how many officers get charged, obviously, if any officers get charged and does -- or perhaps one of the officers.

There's a lot of focus has been on one of the detectives who was fired from the Louisville Police Department. His name is Brett Hankinson. He's that officer who fired at least ten shots blindly, police said, into Breonna Taylor's apartment.

The other big thing here has been ballistics report. Remember, the attorney general here said just before he put the case before the grand jury, he had just received the ballistics report. He went to the FBI, he had them review the ballistics evidence and he said, that was an important part of this case. We'll see if he's going to expand on that. Whether or not he'll give details about that ballistics report, exactly who fired what shots, that's a key part of this investigation. Perhaps we're going to learn more about that.

We're moments away from a decision here from the grand jury as we await. Again, that's supposed to take place any moment. And then we're expected to hear from the attorney general. Brianna?

KEILAR: That ballistic report is so important here, Shimon, right, because we're talking about a number of bullets. I think ten, or thereabouts, from Detective Hankinson and then you have, I believe, the two other officers who also fired shots.

But the question will be, Breonna Taylor was shot several times, which of those shots killed her? And we also know that Detective Hankinson's shots, or at least we believe, but some of the shots in this case went into having been fired so indiscriminately into another occupied apartment, right?

[13:20:04]

I mean, this really raised the question about what -- if this person was respecting life in a crowded apartment building.

Actually, hold on just a moment, Shimon. Let's listen in to the grand jury announcement.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- shot a gun, excuse me, into the apartment occupied by initials C.E.

Count two, wanton endangerment in the first degree. On or about March 13th, 2020 in Jefferson County, Kentucky, the above named defendant, Brett Hankinson, committed the offense of wanton endangerment in the first degree when under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to human life, he wantonly shot a gun into the apartment occupied by initials C and I.

Count three, wanton endangerment in the first degree. On or about March 13th, 2020, the Jefferson County -- in Jefferson County, Kentucky, the above named defendant, Brett Hankinson, committed the offense of wanton endangerment in the first degree when under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to human life, he wantonly shot a gun into an apartment occupied by initials Z.S. against the peace and dignity of the commonwealth of Kentucky.

Mr. Foreperson, is that the decision of the grand jury?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

Sir, if you would please randomly select a number?

Division 13, thank you, sir. The case will then be assigned to Jefferson Circuit Court Division 13.

Madam Assistant Attorney General, do you have a motion with respect for bond?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, your honor. Assistant Attorney General asks $15,000 full cash bond for the defendant, Brett Hankinson.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I will grant the motion and assign bond in the amount of $15,000 full cash and issue a warrant.

That concludes the business of the grand jury sitting for Jefferson County in September 2020. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. You may be excused.

I'm going off the record.

KEILAR: All right. And those are the charges that have been announced.

Laura Coates, I want to bring you in for legal expertise and I am going to say that the first count, which I think I know what it was, but it was cut off a little bit. But, Laura, just sort of take us through it.

It appears, and you tell me if I'm correct in this, that there are three counts, all have to do with just one officer? I don't know if there could be more with others. You tell me that. But it appears to be at least two of those, maybe three are wanton endangerment in the first degree having to do with shooting into apartments occupied by initials C.E. C.N. and Z.S. What does all of this mean?

LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: This is, first of all, a very historic moment. We've been waiting since March as an entire nation to see if there would be some accountability for the killing of Breonna Taylor, the 26-year-old emergency technician in Kentucky, in Louisville, in particular. And now, we see that there will be some form of accountability, at least a charge on one of the officers.

Now, there were three officers who were involved in the shooting. There was the first officer who went in, who was shot in his leg, severing a femoral artery after being shot by the boyfriend of Breonna Taylor, Mr. Walker, and you had a third officer who was not named in this particular indictment here right now who also involved as a plain clothes narcotics officer.

The one who has been charged is the same one who has fired back earlier in the summer because the police chief issued a letter saying, you have engaged in a wanton disregard for human life by blindly, indiscriminately shooting into an apartment through a curtain, meaning he had no idea who he was shooting, whether the person he was shooting at or people posed even a lethal theft to his own life.

And as you know, Brianna, the only way you can actually use lethal force is if lethal force is being used against you. And even then, you are only allowed to use that level of force to stop that lethal force, not to go above and beyond. And you had an officer where the police chief really teed up the same language we just saw just now, read by the grand jury, by the foreman talking about this very issue of that common denominator term of wanton.

Now, what does wanton mean? Wanton is less than first degree intentional murder. Intentional murder means you actually intended to kill the person who became the victim of the homicide. It often can require you to have pre-planning or malice aforethought meaning you intended and planned to kill this person. So a lesser degree of a still unlawful killing is honestly the first-degree or second-degree wanton disregard manslaughter charges.

[13:25:06]

That essentially means that you were aware of a substantial risk to human life or that your conduct could pose grave bodily harm or the thread of grave bodily harm or serious injury.

You knew of the risk and you acted anyway. You knew of the risk and you acted anyway. That is different than even a lower crime called reckless, where you didn't appreciate that there was a risk involved and somebody happened to die.

They are using the wanton standard, which is about 20 years or more in prison, you could have, up to at times life, but does not include the death penalty in Kentucky, I don't believe. Although it is available for first-degree murder, it does not include death penalty for a second-degree or a wanton disregard rime here because there's not that level of intent.

And so this is a huge statement and I think that the police chief teeing in the summer up, maybe inadvertently, by saying, you have behaved in manner that does not fall in line with our training. We don't shoot through a curtain. We don't shoot through a wall. We don't endanger other people.

KEILAR: I want to ask you something though, which is -- and I want to bring in Shimon on this. Shimon, if you can join us, because I know you also heard this announcement as well and you have this information, but if I could have Laura and Shimon, all of us in this conversation.

It appeared, Laura, and, Shimon, you correct me if I have the initials wrong, but we're talking about -- wanton endangerment in the first degree going into a number of different apartments, is that correct? The initials I have here are an apartment occupied by initials C.E. and then another apartment occupied by initials C.N. and then an apartment occupied by Z.S.

So what does this mean in terms of how this relates to the apartment that Breonna Taylor was in? If we do not see her initials, what does that mean, Shimon? Explain that.

PROKUPECZ: Well, that's exactly correct. So we don't know yet and we're going to hear from the attorney general.

There are some people here who expected this, expected for prosecutors to get an indictment on this charge. It is probably the lowest -- excuse me, sir -- it's people here are very upset about this, Brianna.

KEILAR: Of course.

PROKUPECZ: We have some folks here. So there was a woman who I was talking to, she was in tears over this decision by the grand jury because they feel that the prosecutor did not go far enough. The reason why, back to your point is, in a second, is because the family, you recall, was asking for manslaughter charges. They felt at the very least that prosecutors should move ahead with manslaughter charges. It's very clear that did not happen here.

So what we now have is a wanton endangerment charge, which is a class D felony. And I believe it's only punishable up to five years in prison, much less than a manslaughter charge and certainly much less than a murder charge. And that's why the family, I think, wanted a manslaughter charge. They thought it would send a stronger message.

And it's not clear. I think you make a very good point here. And I was talking to someone -- a civil rights lawyer who said to me, it's going to be interesting to see if they actually hold the officers accountable for the Breonna Taylor -- the killing of Breonna Taylor. That is something that we have to wait probably to hear from the attorney general.

Remember, we're waiting for ballistics evidence. We're waiting for more information about that. But it's very clear, at least from this indictment, that the attorney general felt that what the officers here did was illegal, right, because he -- certainly, Hankinson, and they didn't follow proper procedure and they set themselves up for this situation where this happened. And that's an important part of this.

But most important, it's going to be about the community and people who have been fighting for police reform, for social justice across this country, across this country. And if reactions from here is any indication, this indictment is not going to be sufficient for a lot of the people who have been out here protesting every day, sitting here for weeks, calling for justice.

And you can hear behind me already. I think a lot of people, Brianna, are going to be very unhappy about this.

KEILAR: Yes. And part of that, Laura, is there are just so many questions -- nothing is going to bring Breonna Taylor back, right? But there are so many questions about this, about the detective work that went into pinpointing her apartment, about the fact that that detective work seemed to not understand that, actually and normally, on other evenings, there even would be other people in her apartment and also how that -- how that warrant was executed, and whether officers really did what they were supposed to do when they were executing it and did they tell the truth about it? And did they follow proper protocol?

[13:30:02]