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No Officers Charged Directly with Breonna Taylor's Death; Distressed Birx Questions How Long She Can Remain at the White House; Fauci Says Sen. Paul Has Repeatedly Misconstrued Facts about the Pandemic; CDC Chief Says "Deep State" Accusations Are Offensive; Police and Protesters Clash in Wake of Taylor Verdict. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired September 23, 2020 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: He says that the FBI is doing that. Why is that? Doesn't it matter why those officers were sent to that apartment?

AREVA MARTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely, Kate. And he gave us no credible explanation as to why his office was into involved in that investigation. And we know from multiple media reports, that the reports are that the information contained in that warrant was faulty. That it was misinformation and perhaps was even false information. We also know that there were no drugs, no cash, no weapons that weren't legally there found in Breonna Taylor's apartment.

So, whatever the information was that was put into that warrant that was signed by that circuit judge, it was false information, it was not accurate. And we still to this day after 190-plus days of waiting for a decision from this Attorney General, we still are no closer to any kind of credible information or explanation as to why that warrant was even issued and why they targeted Breonna Taylor's apartment.

BOLDUAN: Yes, accountability. That should run all the way through. Areva, thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

MARTIN: Thanks.

BOLDUAN: All right, we're going to continue to track this. We're watching what's playing out in Louisville and across the country and what the reaction will continue to be.

But also happening today, fiery testimony from top health officials in Washington on Capitol Hill. We want to bring that to you. And also, we have breaking news. Dr. Deborah Birx, one of the top officials on the White House Coronavirus Task Force, she's questioning now, how long she can stay on that task force.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:35:00] BOLDUAN: The nation's top health officials testifying on Capitol Hill today on the very latest on the coronavirus pandemic. This is one day of course after the country hit that horrific and tragic milestone of 200,000 deaths from the virus.

The nation's top infectious disease expert, Dr. Anthony Fauci, he was among those who testified. And he told the Senate committee that they will know by maybe November or December if a vaccine is effective and safe.

But that is not next month as the President, Trump, has repeatedly promised. And as for the President's continued claim that we have rounded the corner on the virus, as he puts it, the CDC Director, Dr. Robert Redfield, he essentially threw cold water on that, with this warning today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ROBERT REDFIELD, CDC DIRECTOR: The CDC is currently performing large-scale serology testing across the United States. The preliminary results appear to show that most Americans have not been infected with the virus and are still vulnerable to the infection, serious illness and death. A majority of our nation, more than 90 percent of the population remains susceptible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: His warning comes amid growing fears of course about a very deadly fall and winter in this country. This is nearly 1,000 deaths were reported just yesterday from COVID, with daily cases again approaching 40,000.

Nearly half of all of the states in the country are reporting an increase in new cases over the past week. And just look at the map. There's a lot of red and orange, particularly in the Midwest and West, that is troubling health officials right now.

Let me bring in CNN's Elizabeth Cohen. Who's watching -- you're not only talking to these officials very regularly but watching what played out in this hearing today. There was this extraordinary exchange between Dr. Anthony Fauci and Senator Rand Paul. Tell me about that.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, Kate, having watched Dr. Fauci testify in Congressional hearings over and over again over many, many years, he handles questions from members of Congress, even if they're inane questions, which sometimes they are, sort of very evenly.

It is rare -- I haven't actually seen it before ever -- that he really gets cross with a member of Congress, to use an old-fashioned term. He rarely gets cross. But let's take a listen to what happened today between Dr. Fauci and Senator Paul.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): You've lauded New York for their policy. New York had the highest death rate in the world. How could we possibly be jumping up and down and saying, oh, Governor Cuomo did a great job? He had the worst death rate in the world.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: No, you misconstrued that, Senator. And you've done that repetitively in the past. They're looking at the guidelines that we have put together from the task force of the four or five things of masks, social distancing, outdoors more than indoors, avoiding crowds and washing hands.

PAUL: Or that they developed enough community immunity that they're no longer having the pandemic because they have enough immunity in New York City to actually stop it.

FAUCI: I challenge that, Senator.

PAUL: I'm afraid --

FAUCI: Please, sir, I would like to be able to do this. Because this happens with Senator Rand all the time. You are not listening to what the Director of the CDC said, that in New York, it's about 22 percent. If you believe 22 percent is herd immunity, I believe you're alone in that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:40:00]

COHEN: So, let's unpack that last point a little bit. What Dr. Fauci was saying is, look, New York is doing well not because they reached these superhigh levels of immunity. They didn't reach herd immunity, serology tests and blood tests, the kind that we have now, show that only about 22 percent of people in New York have immunity.

So that's not why things got better. Things got better because New Yorkers did the right things. So, he was really challenging just the basic facts of what Senator Paul was saying.

BOLDUAN: And Elizabeth, the CDC Director, he was also asked during this lengthy hearing about kind of the talk of there being a kind of a, quote/unquote, deep state in the CDC.

What did he have to say about that? Let me play what he had to say and then talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REDFIELD: You know, I want to add, you know, how disappointed I have been personally when people at HHS made comments that they felt there was a deep state down at CDC. I will tell you these are dedicated men and women that are confronting the greatest public health crisis of our time, working 24/7 over 6,700 of them involved in the outbreak itself, 1,200 deploying. And it's offensive to me when I hear this type of comment. I think in my 21 years, 22 years in the military, you never knew people's political perspective.

I will say that is the same about the men and women at CDC. They're dedicated to protect the public health of this nation. And I know that you all appreciate that. Obviously, people don't understand the ability to suck energy out of people that are working 24/7, when they get unfairly criticized or unfairly characterized. And really that's the real harm in all of this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: What'd you think of that, Elizabeth?

COHEN: You know, there is this persistent rightwing theory that the only reason why things aren't always going so well, is because of the deep state. President Trump does everything perfectly. It's that these, you know, career employees, the deep state, that they're trying to undo all of the good that President Trump is doing. That is simply not true.

It's an excuse for failure. And so, it is really very good to hear Dr. Redfield defending his employees and saying, look, there's no deep state here. These are career CDC epidemiologists, immunologists. These are scientists who devoted their life to public health, there's no deep state.

These are people who are trying to lead this country, out of this situation and working hard and doing the very best that they can under extremely difficult circumstances. So, I was glad to hear him defend these people and to sort of undo this crazy right-wing theory.

BOLDUAN: Yes. Good to see you, Elizabeth. Thank you.

So also, amid important testimony, there were new questions being raised right now about the White House coronavirus -- about the White House coronavirus task force and one of the nation's top health experts.

Sources tell CNN that Dr. Deborah Birx has become, quote, distressed over the direction of the task force and is now uncertain about how much longer she can remain in her role as the taskforce coordinator.

Let's go over to CNN White House correspondent, Jim Acosta. This is great reporting by Jim. Jim, tell us more about what you're hearing about kind of where Birx's head is right now.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Kate, what I'm hearing from my sources is that the White House coordinator of the Coronavirus Task Force, Dr. Deborah Birx, is so upset with what she sees as her diminished role in the administration's response to COVID- 19, that she's not certain how long she can remain in her current position.

Birx has told people around her that she is, quote, distressed with the direction of the task force, describing the situation inside the nation's response to the coronavirus as nightmarish. According to people familiar with her thinking, Birx views Dr. Scott Atlas, who is a recent and controversial addition to the task force, as an unhealthy influence on President Trump's thinking when it comes to the virus.

A source close to Birx said of her view of Atlas, and his relationship with Trump and this is a quote from the source, the President has found somebody who matches what he wants to believe.

This source went on to say of Birx, quote, there is no doubt that she feels that her role has been diminished.

Birx, I'm told, believes Atlas is feeding the President misleading information about the efficacy of face masks for controlling the spread of the virus. And as we know the President has been holding these rallies where crowds of supporters refuse to wear masks. And the President has repeatedly mocked Democrat Joe Biden for using them.

And, Kate, we all know that Dr. Birx became a household name during the early weeks of the pandemic. Appearing at those news conferences with the President in the White House briefing room to offer these sober warnings about the threat posed by the virus.

[15:45:00]

But as you may well know, Kate, in recent weeks, Birx has been spending much less time with the President, much less time at those press conferences. She's been absent from those press conferences. And now, she's on the road, dispatched to raise awareness of the administration's pandemic efforts in states where cases of COVID-19 are surging.

Now I should point out a separate source who is close to Birx told me that it is not likely that she would step down from the taskforce right now. Saying she is a, quote, good soldier. But this source went on to say that her frustration is understandable, given this diminished role that she has right now.

We reached out to Dr. Birx and the White House. The White House said in a statement to us earlier this afternoon, that any notion that her role or anybody's role inside the task force has been diminished is false -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Jim, thank you so much. Really appreciate your great reporting on this. All right, much more ahead for us this hour. We've got a breaking news

coverage continuing as you can see on that side of your screen. Outrage on the streets of Louisville, Kentucky, right now as the Attorney General there announced the grand jury's decision in the Breonna Taylor killing. One officer charged, no officers charged, though, directly in the death of Breonna Taylor. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:50:00]

BOLDUAN: All right, welcome back, everyone. We're continuing to follow breaking news out of Louisville, Kentucky. You can see right here, I'm looking at this for the first time with you as protesters have been on the streets of Louisville, Kentucky. Right now, they are facing off -- let's see what -- they're facing off

with police in Kentucky. To this point in all of the shots that I've seen, it has been very peaceful. We're seeing some shoving back and forth at the moment. Let us hope this remains peaceful.

We are keeping a very close eye. As you can see, tempers, anger, outrage over the decision that was handed down by a grand jury and announced by the Attorney General of Kentucky in the death and killing of Breonna Taylor. We're keeping an eye on these pictures.

But I also want to tell you that Benjamin Crump and the legal team representing Breonna Taylor's family, they just released a statement on the grand jury decision.

And look, it's a lengthy statement, but it is important to read in a moment, in full in a moment like this, important for everyone to hear as the nation is struggling. Let me read it for you.

This from Benjamin Crump and the legal team.

This is outrageous and offensive to Breonna Taylor's memory. It's yet another example of no accountability for the genocide of persons of color by white police officers. With all we know about Breonna Taylor's killing, how could a fair and just system result in today's decision, Benjamin Crump asks.

Her killing was criminal on so many levels. An illegal warrant obtained by perjury, breaking into her home without announcing. Despite instructions to execute a warrant that required it.

More than 30 gunshots fired, many of which were aimed at Breonna while she was on the ground, he says. Many others fired blindly into every room of her home. A documented and clear cover-up, the legal team says.

And the death of an unarmed black woman who posed no threat and who was living her best life. Yet here we are without justice for Breonna, her family and the black community.

If Hankison's behavior constituted wanton endangerment -- I'm going to pause right now as we're looking -- I'm sorry. We're going to look at this. Police are now very clearly getting into some very serious confrontations with protesters on the streets of Louisville.

Charles Coleman, I think he's joining me right now. Charles, I'm just looking up from reading the statement and seeing this playing out on my monitor. This is pretty surreal.

Look, talk to me about what you say and what you think in this moment as we're looking at this. Because these protesters, I don't know if I've seen any --

CHARLES F. COLEMAN JR., CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY (via phone): Well, I think, you know, I think, Kate, as we have this conversation and we look about what's happening in Louisville right now, what is very likely to happen across the country, it's very important that we understand something that comes from this indictment.

We just saw a wall, a wall in an apartment receive more justice than a dead black woman. And I think that as chilling as that sounds for us to process, when you think about what that means in the context of our history as black people in America, it only adds salt to the wound in terms of how insulting and outrageous the ultimate result of this indictment was.

From the very beginning, I talked about the lack of transparency in this case. I talked about the fact that there was a lot of blame to go around. Daniel Cameron has shouldered the brunt of it. But let's be clear, the blood of Breonna Taylor is on the mayor's hands.

It is also on the hands of Thomas Wine who attempted again -- and I want to continue to make this point and drive it home -- who attempted to give a plea deal to Breonna Taylor's ex-boyfriend by indicating her as culpable with respect to his drug related activities.

BOLDUAN: Charles

COLEMAN: And so, it's not just by Daniel Cameron. This is a much bigger conversation.

BOLDUAN: It absolutely is. And what we're looking at right now.

[15:55:00]

Look, people started gathering on the streets even before the grand jury's decision came down. They started walking. Our Shimon Prokupecz has been among some of the protestors who are walking very peacefully, as we saw through the streets.

And this just changed very quickly as protesters came upon police. I think I've counted -- that man looks like he is bleeding.

I think I've seen three people on the ground taken down on the ground by police. It is not clear what transpired that led to this. But things have escalated very quickly as police clearly wanting to get this under control.

In these moments I sit, and I watch myself. I mean look, you now have one, two, three, four, you have five people sitting on the ground who've, you know, have with their hands tethered behind their backs waiting to see what happens next.

The police are reacting pretty quickly. Go ahead, Charles.

COLEMAN: It's painfully ironic, right, that a large part of what is driving this conversation is a feeling of mistrust and inaction or mis-action by law enforcement.

And what we are actually about to witness right now and I'm predicting it unfortunately is the probable display of that on camera in front of America to see with respect to these protesters and police and law enforcement's response. So, we're already having a conversation about law enforcement and

improper and excessive use of force. And what we are unfortunately witnessing now is the furtherance and the support with evidence right before our very eyes of exactly what we are complaining about to begin with.

BOLDUAN: But, Charles, also, I mean, what would you say to the people who are on the streets of Louisville right now? How do you lower the temperature in this moment of real despair and real grief and pain that we can see?

COLEMAN: You know, Kate, I understand that question, and it is a logical and a reasonable question. But, quite frankly, the most logical and reasonable answer that I have for you is that should've been a concern of Daniel Cameron, of everyone else who was involved with this case, Thomas Wine, the officers who entered that apartment.

You know, we all also want to have the conversation about how do we quell the violence on the backend? But the reality is even though this is where we are, this is not the first time that this has happened. This is not some spontaneous reaction to something that occurred that we just have never seen before.

This is the result of a countless list of names. I've had the conversation on this network a number of times regarding name after name after name of humans turned into hash tags. This is a black woman who was in her home sleeping doing nothing.

So while I can understand the need to call for peace and while I do not want to see anyone hurt, while I don't want to see any violence take place and I do not advocate for it, I think that it is unfair and unjust to have the conversation about how do we quell protests now or the violence now or the reaction when, in fact, the conversation is, was, and always has been why are we continuously finding ourselves in these positions?

BOLDUAN: I 100 percent hear exactly where you're coming from. I'm just now looking at this and thinking it's 3:58 in the afternoon. Curfew is supposed to be setting in tonight. They said it's going to be put in place in the county from 9 to 6:30 in the morning. And this curfew is going to go on for 72 hours.

And this is what's happening in broad daylight. I'm really scared what's going to happen this evening, Charles.

COLEMAN: I think that you know to be honest with you, there is a need for concern. I think that there is a need for concern not just in Louisville, not just in Kentucky, but across the country.

Unfortunately, we saw, Kate, a significant amount of momentum that was built during the spring and summer months around the unrest in America with its racial reckoning and its conversation about race and systemic oppression.

And we saw that build, in the past few weeks, with the exception of Breonna Taylor's case and Jacob Blake's case, we've seen some of that die down. It is very likely that this could be the powder keg that sort of ignites that all over again.

And you know I am hopeful that perhaps it can bring the momentum back in a way that's constructive, in a way that's meaningful. But of course, you have to be mindful that there are forces at play when you're talking about sheer emotion, sheer anger that can lead to this type of destruction.

And so of course nobody wants to see that. But, again, this should serve as a reminder to the rest of the country that, hey, this conversation is far from over. It's far from finished and we have to continue to have it. We cannot sweep it under the rug.

BOLDUAN: And that gets exactly -- I have to tell you, Charles, to what Benjamin Crump and his legal team are putting out in the statement, their final comment in their statement is make no mistake, we will keep fighting this fight in Breonna's memory. We will never stop saying her name.

Charles, thank you so much for being with me this hour.