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Trump Refuses to Commit to Peaceful Transfer of Power if He Loses; More Than 20 States Report Uptick in New COVID-19 Cases; President Trump Claims the White House Could Override FDA on Stricter Vaccine Standards; United Airlines to Offer COVID Testing for Some Passengers. Aired 9-9:30a ET
Aired September 24, 2020 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[09:00:00]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Forty days out from the election, and the president is executing really a dangerous, unprecedented assault on the integrity of the election, threatening not to accept the results while there are legal efforts underway to invalidate mail-in ballots, sending our country perhaps already torn apart by protests into the danger of real chaos.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN KAREM, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, PLAYBOY: Will you commit to making sure that there is a peaceful transferal of power after the election?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, we have to see what happens. You know that. I have been complaining very strongly about the ballots and the ballots are a disaster. And --
KAREM: I understand that. But people are rioting. Do you commit to making sure that there is a peaceful transferal of power?
TRUMP: We want to -- get rid of the ballots and you'll have a very-- we'll have a very peaceful -- there won't be a transfer, frankly. There'll be a continuation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Wow, a clear signal to his supporters that if Joe Biden wins the White House, do not accept the results.
Also breaking overnight, two officers shot in Louisville just hours after a grand jury in Kentucky did not charge three police officers in the deaths of Breonna Taylor. Protests erupted across the country.
But first, let's begin with our John Harwood. He joins us this morning from the White House.
We know the Trump campaign is already taking a number of measures, right, suing several states over the validity of mail-in ballots, already laying out steps to contest the election. But these comments from the president, similar to what he said to Chris Wallace, not that long ago and similar to 2016, are striking as we're 40 days out.
JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Poppy, it's un-American behavior. It's authoritarian behavior. It's dangerous behavior. And let's be clear about a couple of things. One, the things the president is saying about mail-in balloting, to discredit them, are false. There is no evidence of widespread fraud in mail-in balloting. It's gotten wide acceptance around the country.
Secondly, the reason that he's doing that is because he is losing the election. He is behind by a wide margin nationally by a significant margin in more than enough battleground states for Joe Biden to win the election. Now, what the president is doing in the last couple of days is explicitly linking the Supreme Court appointment he is due to make on Saturday to his desire to a favorable ruling by a conservative majority on his challenges. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We need nine justices. You need that. With the unsolicited millions of ballots that they're sending, it's a scam. It's a hoax. Everybody knows that. And the Democrats know it better than anybody else. So you're going to need nine justices up there. I think it's going to be very important because what they're doing is a hoax with the ballots.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARWOOD: It's not a scam. It's not a hoax. But the president is mounting legal challenges all across the country as you can see. Important to note that so far he's not been faring particularly well in those challenges. Democrats had been vindicated in many of the most significant cases. However, the Trump team, the Republicans have signaled they're going to appeal a Pennsylvania case all the way up to the Supreme Court.
That concerns ballot drop boxes and absentee ballot deadlines. I don't know whether that will be accepted by the Supreme Court. But that's one place where the composition of the court ultimately and the decision of the court in the meantime before the election, before that additional confirmation will be highly relevant.
SCIUTTO: And we should note, by the way, that the president has said that mail-in ballots in Republican-run states, Florida, for instance, acceptable. Not in Democrat-run states. Politics very much at play here.
John Harwood at the White House, thanks very much.
Let's discuss this more with CNN legal analyst Elie Honig, a senior White House reporter for "Playboy" magazine Brian Karem, he's the one who asked the question about peaceful transition yesterday to the president, and CNN presidential historian Douglas Brinkley.
Elie Honig, I want to talk to you first as our legal expert here. The words that were perhaps most striking from the president yesterday were we want to get rid of the ballots, right? I mean, he's saying with his inside voice what is happening here, right, is a challenge to mail-in ballots, virtually across the board.
Can you explain what those legal challenges are and what the law is here?
ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Jim, sure. So that was a preview I think of what's to come here. Look, this is very serious and very real because Donald Trump has said this kind of thing before. This is not just some isolated thing that he said out of nowhere.
One that's important to keep in mind, we do not have one unified national election system. We really have 51 separate systems for all the states in D.C. that then funnel into Congress. And there are lawsuits happening right now to challenge all manner of mail-in balloting. Do we send out absentee ballots?
[09:05:02]
Do states need to purge their voter rolls? What are the signature requirements, the deadline requirements? That's what's happening now. Count on those lawsuits to continue up to and after election day to try to just throw this thing into chaos.
HARLOW: Douglas Brinkley, you're a historian and we need a historian right now to put this into context for us. Do that.
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, this is our first time we've ever had an authoritarian president, somebody who tries to strong arm the democracy, to shatter our norms, to create uncertainty about an election, and to cozy up with a foreign adversary in this case, Russia, to try to dismantle and take a wrecking ball to a presidential election.
Donald Trump is recognizing now that he's falling way behind in the polls. He still has a chance to win fair and square on the first debate, September 29th. It's a great opportunity to pick up some points, but alas, Trump is not like other American presidents. He is basically putting down the hammer fist saying I will not leave. If people say I've lost, I really didn't lose. That's what a dictator does.
SCIUTTO: Brian Karem, you of course asked that question as we showed earlier of the president. You've covered this White House for some time. You know, the big question here, did the president has said and pursued a lot of things? Is the White House behind him on this effort? Is the Republican Party behind him on this effort here? Beyond the president, himself?
KAREM: I think the White House, the people who work in the White House have cast their lot with the president and I believe that they're going to continue to cast their lot with the president up until the point that they no longer can cast their lot with the president. I think it's up to the Republicans to come forward at some point in time and to stand up for you know the constitutional rights of everyone and what the Constitution says.
And I have to tell you, Jim, I thought that was a fairly simple question.
HARLOW: Yes.
KAREM: I thought that it would be -- have a fairly simple answer. Of course, I'm going to follow the rule of law. I was a little shocked that I got the answer that I did and the fact that it is a controversy with this president is sobering for all of us and should make us all think.
HARLOW: Brian, your podcast is aptly titled, "Just Ask the Question." And thank goodness you did just ask the question and then press again to try to get the answer. What I wonder is how many Mitt Romneys and Liz Cheneys are there out there? And Steve Stivers as well, congressman from Ohio, who all basically said, no, no, no, no, no, this is so clear on the Constitution, don't go there, Mr. President.
But are they going to be lonely on an island or will a chorus of Republicans join them, or will most Republicans in Congress say, oh, the president didn't mean it?
KAREM: I think it boils down to following, you know, who are you going to follow? There is the Lincoln Project. Those are disaffected Republicans, and there are many of those including former communications director Anthony Scaramucci who are now speaking out against the president. What it's going to take is for them to convince people, give them a safe space to do so, those who are still in office.
And those that are in races that are close, I think you're going to see them at some point in time move away from the president in order to protect their own selves.
SCIUTTO: There is another effort beyond -- Douglas Brinkley, beyond the efforts that Elie was describing, the lawsuits over signature verification, deadline for counting, et cetera. But efforts in GOP- controlled state legislatures, raising what I think is the unprecedented possibility of a state legislature just saying forget what the votes say, we're going to swing our electoral votes in this state to the president.
Is there any precedent for that in this country and, constitutionally, is that really doable?
BRINKLEY: There is nothing like that in modern American history. In the early days, there would be horse trading and swapping. Nobody really knew what would happen. What Donald Trump is going to try to do is use every tool in his kit, anything he could do to stay in power. He's living by one law and only one law right now and that's Richard Nixon's statement that if the president does it, it must be legal.
And he will look for any little opening, a crack, where he could stay and hold power in any state anywhere he can and then getting that ninth Supreme Court justice on is a big plan. HARLOW: So --
BRINKLEY: It gives assurance if it goes to the court, they'll vote in his favor.
HARLOW: Yes. Douglas --
BRINKLEY: It's not clear they would.
HARLOW: I didn't mean to interrupt you. I'm just so glad you brought up the Supreme Court because I want everyone to listen to the president talking about exactly that yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: With eight, nine justices, you need that. With the unsolicited millions of ballots that they're sending, it's a scam.
[09:10:06]
It's a hoax. Everybody knows that. And the Democrats know it better than anybody else. So you are going to need nine justices up there. I think it's going to be very important because what they're doing is a hoax with the ballots.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Elie, can you connect the dots for us so, you know, the rush for nomination and confirmation on the court and then saying that this whole thing is not going to be legit, so it's going to go up to that court? Connect it for us.
HONIG: Yes, Poppy, so the U.S. Supreme Court, of course, is going to be so important here. This is where these disputes could end up. To me the scariest scenario is what Mr. Brinkley just talked about. The Constitution actually does potentially allow a state legislature to undermine the actual vote in that state. The Constitution does not say the electors have to be based on the vote.
Now if that ends up in the Supreme Court, it's so important to see whether the president gets his nominee through and confirmed in time because if so, the ballots on the Supreme Court goes from a 5-4 conservative majority to a 6-3 conservative majority. And what that does is really give the president John Roberts' insurance because as it was last term there were several big cases where John Roberts flipped over and joined the liberal four to create a 5-4 decision that way. Now if it's 6-3, even if Roberts flips over, it's still not enough.
HARLOW: Right.
HONIG: You're going to need to see Roberts plus one in order to give the liberal block a win in the Supreme Court.
HARLOW: I never heard it put that way. John Roberts' insurance. Not exactly the nickname I think the chief justice wants. But I take your point and it's a good one.
Elie Honig, Brian Karem, Douglas Brinkley, thank you all so much.
We have a lot ahead this hour. Still to come, two police officers in stable condition after being shot in those protests last night in Louisville. Unrest there and across the country after a grand jury decided not to charge any of the officers directly in Breonna Taylor's death. We will speak with the governor of Kentucky ahead.
SCIUTTO: And President Trump makes a baseless claim, another one, that the FDA is getting political, says the White House might overrule strict vaccine guidelines. What that means for your health.
Plus, the push to begin vaccine trials for children. What a trial for kids would look like, how difficult it would be to find parents who would allow their children to participate. It's a big question.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:15:00]
SCIUTTO: This morning looking at the numbers, coronavirus cases increasing in more than 20 states, and a new report from the CDC reveals that one in five cases between the months of June and August were in people in their 20s. This is key. Of course, there is a sense out there that young people somehow impervious to this.
HARLOW: All of this as the president says the FDA is playing politics after the agency announced it is considering new rules that would definitely push even emergency authorization of a vaccine beyond election day. The president says, no, it's the White House that has the final say. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Extremely political. Why would they do this when we come back with these great results. And I think you'll have those great results --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Only expected --
TRUMP: Why would we -- why would we doing it? But, we're going to look at it. We're going to take a look at it and, ultimately, the White House has to approve it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Former acting director of the CDC, Dr. Richard Besser is here. Good morning doctor, thanks for joining us. Does the White House have to approve it?
RICHARD BESSER, FORMER ACTING DIRECTOR OF THE CDC: Good to be here -- I'm sorry?
HARLOW: Does the White House have to approve a vaccine like the president just said? BESSER: You know, this is one of those issues that's going to have to
be worked through. The FDA is part of the executive branch. They would have the role of approving a vaccine. But it's a big question whether the White House could overturn that.
There have been instances in the past where the FDA has recommended either approving a medication or not approving a medication, and the Department of HHS, which FDA is part of, has reversed that. So, you know, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that the FDA could overrule -- that the White House could overrule the FDA on this.
HARLOW: Wow.
SCIUTTO: Dr. Besser, that is an alarming reality especially since we know that this is one in a series, right? I mean, we had the FDA exaggerate the benefits of convalescent plasma on the eve of the Republican National Convention.
You of course had the president and others pushing for the use of hydroxychloroquine from the podium before there was any data to indicate that it's helpful for a large portion of the population. I mean, this is a genuine concern here, is it not, given the importance of the vaccine into bringing the outbreak under control?
BESSER: One of the reasons I think we were hearing so forcefully from the head of the FDA is to try and restore faith by the American public, that the process for approval is going to be based purely on science, and to provide some transparency on that.
So, in his remarks, and in what FDA is talking about, they're talking about following people who got the vaccine a little bit longer to ensure it's safe, and making sure that in people who got the placebo. So they didn't get the actual vaccine, that there are enough cases of COVID so that they can truly say how effective it is, in particular in the elderly. So, these are really important steps in terms of confidence, you know, from me as a doctor to recommend a vaccine to my patients.
I want to know this information and it's very reassuring to me to hear that FDA wants to go that route. It is concerning to think that they're not going to be allowed to.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
HARLOW: What do you think this does in terms -- Dr. Besser, in terms of the confidence of the American people. I mean, the fact that the most recent --
SCIUTTO: Yes --
HARLOW: Polling already showed us 54 percent of folks said they wouldn't take a vaccine if it were, you know, released on or around election day.
[09:20:00]
Now this, it just seems like every little thing chips away at people's trust in a really necessary thing.
BESSER: Yes, what you want to be hearing from the White House is that, we're going to let science do what science does best, and we're going to let the CDC and the FDA and NIH do their work so that the public can have confidence that any vaccine that gets approved is safe, is effective and should be taken. Without that, you can have all the vaccines in the world. People don't want them and aren't going to get them. They're not going to have the impact that you really want to see.
HARLOW: Yes.
SCIUTTO: Dr. Besser, you served as acting director at the CDC in this role. Given the collection of decisions now, right, that have the appearance at the very least of political influence and now this, the president saying directly from the podium, we're going to look at that, right?
We're going to look at the idea of overruling the FDA's own guidelines on this. Should people watching this program be confident that science will rule the day? Science and medicine will rule the day here and not politics, so that they could be confident in having a shot in the arm, right? Or their children having a shot in the arm when a vaccine is available?
BESSER: Well, we're going to have to see how this plays out. And what you would hope to see is that the leaders of the FDA and of CDC draw a hard line in the sand and say that we are going to ensure that what we recommend going forward is based on science, and if we're told to do otherwise, we are going to -- we're going to call that out. You really --
SCIUTTO: Yes --
BESSER: Need to see that from the top if you want to see --
HARLOW: Yes --
BESSER: Confidence in the process --
SCIUTTO: Yes.
HARLOW: We're going to call that out or we're going to resign, right? I mean, that sort of --
BESSER: Yes --
HARLOW: The ultimate --
BESSER: Exactly --
HARLOW: The ultimate statement --
BESSER: It has to be that firm. That's right.
HARLOW: Yes. Dr. Besser, we appreciate you, especially on mornings like this for setting us straight. Thank you very much. Really interesting development, United Airlines just announcing that they will soon become the first carrier in the United States to offer coronavirus testing to passengers.
OK, this is not an all-year United flight, but it will begin October 15th, it's for the Hawaii-bound passengers out of San Francisco. The goal here is to help the passengers avoid what is a 14-day mandatory quarantine in Hawaii. So, United is actually going to give them, Jim, what's interesting, that 15-minute Abbott Lab test that we have been hearing so much about.
SCIUTTO: Yes, listen --
HARLOW: Maybe all flights --
SCIUTTO: And a lot of folks want access to that test, right? Particularly when making decisions about travel --
HARLOW: Yes, I guess --
SCIUTTO: You and I included. Still ahead --
HARLOW: Yes --
SCIUTTO: Grief and outrage across the country after no officers were charged directly in the death of Breonna Taylor. There was one charge for one officer. This as protests in Louisville started peacefully but turned violent. And sadly, two police officers were shot. I'm going to speak to the governor of Kentucky. That's next.
HARLOW: So we are also moments away from the opening bell on Wall Street. Futures pointing lower this morning as you see. This as -- we just learned that 870,000 new Americans filed for those first-time unemployment claims last week. That is a little bit higher than the week before. Investors are obviously worried about that. They're worried about the spread of COVID, they're worried about election volatility here. You name it, we'll keep an eye on the markets.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:25:00]
SCIUTTO: Two police officers are now recovering, thankfully, in stable condition after being shot while responding to protests in Louisville, Kentucky, overnight. Their injuries we are told are non- life-threatening.
And we've also learned that a suspect is now in custody, nearly 100 demonstrators were also arrested in Louisville amid unrest after the Kentucky Attorney General announced that none of the three officers involved in the death of Breonna Taylor would be charged with her killing. One officer was charged with wanting endangerment in relation to shooting into another apartment during that encounter.
We saw outrage on display across the nation after that decision. Protests in several cities, the long-awaited grand jury decision came more than six months after Taylor was shot to death in her home while Louisville police officers executed a late night warrant in a narcotics investigation. Joining me now is the governor of Kentucky, Andy Beshear. Governor, thanks so much for taking the time this morning.
GOV. ANDY BESHEAR (D-KY): Yes, thanks for having us. It was a long night last night in Kentucky. But every morning gives us hope of a better world and a better commonwealth here in Kentucky.
SCIUTTO: That is good to hear. I wanted to, if I can, just begin on the condition of the officers' non-life-threatening injuries. Do you have any update on their condition this morning?
BESHEAR: Well, I talked to one of the officers. He's a major directly last night, while he was shot, his prognosis is actually very good. He thought he might even get to go home last night. We got a chance to talk about our families. We both have kids we didn't --
SCIUTTO: OK --
BESHEAR: Spread out far enough. So, it was good to talk to him, he was in good spirits. I talked to the mother of the other officer who had to have a couple of surgeries last night, but is expected to recover. I'm going to check in again this morning with him. We just got to remember just like when we think about everybody's paying today, that these individuals are also people's children --
SCIUTTO: Yes --
BESHEAR: Often times people's parents, and we are rooting for a full recovery.
SCIUTTO: Governor, you previously served as the attorney general of Kentucky, yourself. You're a lawyer, yourself. Are you satisfied with the grand jury's decision in this case?
