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Trump Refuses to Commit to Peaceful Transfer of Power if He Loses; Trump Claims He Could Override FDA on Stricter Vaccine Standards; Two Louisville Police Officers Shot in Overnight Protests. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired September 24, 2020 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: We'll have a very peaceful -- there won't be a transfer, frankly. There will be a continuation.

[10:00:04]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: Listen to those words, get rid of the ballots. That's a sitting U.S. president talking about disqualifying ballots in the upcoming election.

The other breaking news overnight, two officers were shot in Louisville hours after a grand jury in Kentucky, did not charge three police officers in the death of Breonna Taylor. One officer was charged with wanton endangerment, this for shooting into Breonna Taylor's neighbor's apartment.

We've seen protests around the country. I did speak to the governor of Kentucky a short while ago, who said that the protests in Louisville were mostly peaceful.

First though, let's get to CNN's John Harwood on these comments by the president. And, John, the president said, he didn't hint, he said in so many words, they are looking to get rid of ballots, valid ballots, in this election of the next president of this country. Tell us what the president was speaking about here.

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I think, Jim, what he was suggesting or saying fairly directly, in fact, was that he thinks mail-in ballots that go against him are somehow fraudulent, that there will be a lot of fraud in the election. There's zero reason to think that, and, therefore, that's the basis of his claim that the election would be rigged, so his argument is get rid of those mail-in ballots and will I'll win.

There is zero legitimate reason to think that a correctly administered vote in the country would re-elect President Trump. He is trailing substantially in all the national polls. He's trailing by a significant margin in more than enough battleground states. And what he's doing is trying to sort of fog the air with doubt about the validity of the election and suggest that he wouldn't accept the results.

And he's challenging the expanded balloting in court in multiple states right now. Remember, many states are trying to expand the ways in which people can safely vote because of the pandemic. People are scared of getting sick and dying from coronavirus. And so you have in multiple states expanded use of things like drop boxes and extended absentee ballot deadlines and expanded use of mail-in voting, all of which are broadly accepted and ways of voting that are not riddled by fraud, but the president is the claiming otherwise.

And you can tell that Republicans are disturbed by his claims, which are -- evoked the authoritarian behavior because people like Mitch McConnell and Mitt Romney and Marco Rubio and Liz Cheney have put out statements saying, no, we will have a peaceful transition of power despite whatever you've heard.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN NEWSROOM: I wonder if that's surprising, John, to the president. Not a question you know the answer to, but I wonder if he's just surprised that there have been these responses and him saying, no, no, no, don't go that far, Mr. President.

Thank you, John.

HARWOOD: Well, Poppy, he did get that -- he did get that pushback a few weeks ago when he suggested moving the election because of the coronavirus.

HARLOW: Right.

HARWOOD: And you had people stand up and say, no, we're going to have the election on November 3rd. That's an indication that there are some lines that Republican leaders will not cross for him. We'll see what happens.

HARLOW: There are some lines, some things that are bigger than politics, John, at least some remain, thank you.

So far, only a couple of Republican lawmakers, big names, as you just heard John point out, are speaking out on the president's refusal to commit to a peaceful transfer of power but others are saying he doesn't mean it, right?

SCIUTTO: I mean, some, you're seeing now, some saying that this is just him not granting that he might lose the election.

CNN's Lauren Fox is on Capitol Hill.

Lauren, we heard what the president said about getting rid of ballots, et cetera. Tell us how many sitting Republican lawmakers are saying that shall not stand in effect.

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Well, Jim, not very many at this current moment. Now, some big names, I think it's very significant that Majority Leader Mitch McConnell tweeted promising that there would be an orderly transition to this election, and I think that we cannot discount what a significant statement that the president made last night. And the reaction you're getting on Capitol Hill really reflects that it. You're also hearing from people like Mitt Romney, who are very comfortable going up against the president, when it comes to issues about the election and democracy in general. What Romney said was, quote, this would be unthinkable and unimaginable.

You're also hearing from Liz Cheney, a top Republican in the House of Representatives, who said, quote, the peaceful transition of power is enshrined in our Constitution and fundamental to the survival of our republic. America's leaders swear an oath to the Constitution. We uphold that oath.

Now, you have some Republicans discounting what the president said last night.

[10:05:01]

You had Ben Sasse, who spoke with my colleague, Jeremy Herb, who told him sometimes the president says crazy things.

But I think when you're talking about democracy, the continuation of power, the power of voting in this country, that's why you've seen some Republican lawmakers, like Majority Leader McConnell, they are not wasting time. They want to get out ahead of this, because you don't want to sow any doubt about the legitimacy of the vote in a democracy.

It's a very, very significant comment that the president made yesterday. That's why you're seeing some leaders speak out against it. Jim and Poppy?

SCIUTTO: Yes, and consistent with a months' long attack on the election as being somehow rigged. Lauren Fox, thanks very much.

With us now is Renato Mariotti. He is a CNN Legal Analyst and former federal prosecutor.

Renato, here is the thing that, I think, I want you to help our viewers understand. These are not just words from the president.

We lost you for a moment there, Renato, but I think you're okay. These are not just words from the president. These are being coupled with legal steps to challenge the validity of mail-in ballots, some of which might be sent in for people -- by people watching this broadcast right now.

Tell us what those legal steps are and what potential effect they could have on these votes being counted.

RENATO MARIOTTI, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. What I expect is there to be a challenge state by state by the Trump administration. We have actually a patchwork of elections in this country, not one national election. So it's very possible, for example, that there will be a challenge saying that certain -- that under state law, it will be.

For example, under, let's say, Florida State law, to bring up some bad memories from 2000, ballots that weren't received, mail-in ballots that weren't received by a particular date or postmarked by a certain date aren't valid, or, for example, that at way in which a ballot was filled out, it means that it's not valid. So we could potentially have a dispute in several different states.

HARLOW: Also, Renato, what does the Constitution say about state electors and deadlines, because I believe mid-December is really critical here?

MARIOTTI: Absolutely. There actually is a date in federal law by which electors must be certified, and that is in December. And so it is possible that state legislatures could potentially, for example, certify depends on how each state determines who its electors are, but it's possibly that, for example, there could be competing slates of electors, just like we had in Florida in 2000, and a dispute over who the proper electors are for a state. That could be a mess and it appears that the Republicans are already drawing up plans to ensure that their slate of electors are chosen in the event of a dispute.

SCIUTTO: In layman's terms, what we're talking about here, and we're seeing this groundwork being laid in, for instance, Wisconsin, a key battleground state where the legislature is controlled by the GOP, and has been very aggressive and a number of those, including restricting the powers of the Democrat -- the elected governor there.

This is, Renato, in layman's terms, the possibility that a legislature says, forget the votes count on Election Day, we're going to send the state's votes to the president. Is that right? And is that constitutionally viable?

MARIOTTI: Well, there has been some reporting. I know The Atlantic reported that that is a strategy that Republicans are considering. It would appear, particularly after a recent Supreme Court precedence that it would not be viable. But, of course, what Republicans would do in that circumstance is say that the vote totals are not valid or are questionable the way that Trump is trying to do, call into question the results of the election, try to get their electors slated anyway and have a dispute that might last past June.

HARLOW: Let's talk, Renato, for a moment, if we could, about Attorney General Bill Barr here, because it's not the president. I mean, Barr hasn't made this claim that the president just made, but he has, you know, sown doubt, unfounded doubt, about the validity of mail-in balloting. And remember during a hearing this summer, he acknowledged, after being pressed hard in questioning, that he did not have evidence that foreign countries could successfully sway the U.S. election with counterfeit ballots, et cetera, claimed it was, quote, common sense that they would attempt to do so. How key is Barr right now in this?

MARIOTTI: Well, Barr -- the attorney general of the United States is the chief law enforcement officer of the United States. And, you know, he could either take the tack in which he has the federal government intervening in suits saying that the United States has an interest in this and is trying to support the Trump or Republican position or he could be a voice that says, we must respect the rule of law. Every president since Washington has stepped down and had a peaceful transition of power. We are -- this election is bigger than one person or one party or one particular situation.

[10:10:00]

SCIUTTO: I mean, it's amazing that we're discussing these issues in America in the year 2020.

The president has been laying these attacks against mail-in ballots for months. And a few weeks ago, Republicans seemed to have informed him that actually many Republicans use mail-in ballots. And then the president course-corrected ever so slightly to say, for instance, in a state such as a Florida that's run by Republicans, they are just fine there, not elsewhere.

Legally, can the president, can his legal challenges pick and choose and say, mail-in ballots are just fine, value any that state run by my friend, not valid in that state run by, you know, a Democrat or where the results are turning against me?

MARIOTTI: Sadly the answer is yes, and that's because in our country, we don't have any sort of nationally run elections. Elections are run at the state and local levels. So what I expect is that you're going to have lawsuits challenging results potentially in certain states or in certain counties, but not in others. And that's why I know the Biden team also has a very large legal team they have assembled to defend against, so I would expect there to be some more (INAUDIBLE) with that in the incoming election.

HARLOW: Renato, so good to have you, so important to really understand this this morning. Thanks very much for being with us.

And, Jim, I think just notable on the -- the president says this on the same day that the United States says, we're not going to recognize, you know, in Belarus, Lukashenko, as the president because it was an illegitimate election, you know? Just, I mean, amazing.

SCIUTTO: And the president is very publicly saying that this election will be rigged, right? It is -- folks, it's a story we're going to continue to cover because it has genuine consequences.

Still to come this hour, President Trump makes another baseless claim that the FDA is getting political, says the White House might overrule their guidelines for approving a vaccine.

HARLOW: Also, two police officers this morning, thank goodness, are in stable condition after being shot last night during these protests in Louisville, Kentucky, unrest across the country after no officer was charged directly with the death of Breonna Taylor. There were wanton endangerment charges against one officer. We'll take you live to the ground there, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:15:00]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. President Trump now says that the White House will have the final say, not the FDA whose job it is to do this, after the FDA announced it is considering new rules that would push authorizing a vaccine past Election Day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: It sounded to me -- it sounded extremely political. Why would they do that when we come back with these great results? And I think you will have those great results.

REPORTER: But when do you expect this --

TRUMP: Why would we be delaying it? But we're going to look at it. We're going to take a look it. And, ultimately, the White House has to approve it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Joining us now is CNN Senior Medical Correspondent Elizabeth Cohen. Listen this, matters, because the FDA was responding to concerns that politics would drive the timeline for the vaccine by saying, we're going to have strict standards here and the president saying very clearly you might overrule those standards. So can that happen based on the rules? And what would it mean for the science, the medicine of this?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, I think that it's unclear, Jim, exactly what the White House is able to do or not able to do. Folks at the FDA tell us, you know, whenever we do something like this, it always go by OMB, the Office of Management and Budget, which is, of course, part of the executive branch, as the FDA is part of the executive branch.

So, could he basically go in there and basically big foot the FDA? I mean, it has happened before by other presidents. So, technically, could he? It certainly appears that he could.

I think the important point here is that we want to listen to what the president just said. He said, this is political. Why would they want to do this? So I hope the president is watching because, President Trump, the reason they want to do this is to make sure they don't kill anyone. You want to have as much safety data as possible on a new vaccine.

The technology that's used by these first two vaccines that are being studied in phase three trials, it's never been on the market before in the United States. The FDA has never approved a vaccine that uses this particular platform, this particular technology. That's important. We don't have millions of people out there who have gotten a shot that uses this type of approach. There's a lot that we don't know.

Give it another two months, make sure that you use that two months, you're looking at people who are getting shots in their arms. You're waiting to see two months what happens. You've got more people involved, more time involved. That gives you more safety data. That's why the FDA is thinking about doing this. It's not political.

SCIUTTO: Listen, we saw with the AstraZeneca trial, right, that there was a case there of negative effects, and that's why you do the broad- based trials even as you've seen largely success in those phase three trials.

Let me ask you this, because at the same time, there is now consideration of trials for children in particular. Why? And what stage would those be at? I mean, how quickly would that move along?

COHEN: That would move along all that quickly because you have to get them up and going. And when you're talking about children, there's sort of extra special care that you want to take, that would be trickier. We would certainly have an approved vaccine or an authorized vaccines, I should say, for adults way before we would have one for children.

SCIUTTO: Understood. Okay. Well, thank you, Elizabeth, for keeping us on top of the science.

[10:20:00]

Much appreciated.

Other story we're following this morning, from trolls on the internet to official statements coming from the White House, there is sadly a great deal of disinformation about the coronavirus pandemic and the search for a vaccine.

HARLOW: Our Chief Medical Correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, separates fact from fiction.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: For the last nine months, the world has slowly been learning about a disease that didn't even exist a year ago, but there are still a lot of misconceptions about COVID-19.

TRUMP: Now we know it affects elderly people, elderly people with heart problems.

GUPTA: Misconception number one, only older people are affected by this virus. Fact is everyone has been impacted in some way by the virus. While older people are much more likely to die if they're infected, younger people are, by no means, immune. There have been over 840 COVID-19 related are deaths in young people under the age of 30. At least 850 children, 17 and younger, have been hospitalized, like 12-year-old Juliet Daly.

JULIET DALY, HAD COVID-19: It felt like my legs were really weak and I was pretty tired.

SEAN DALY, JULIET'S FATHER: She started having blue lips.

GUPTA: With younger people like Juliet, it could be that their immune systems reacted too strongly creating this cascade of inflammation, a cytokine storm. And, kids, this condition is known as multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children or MISC.

In older person, it could be that their immune systems are too weak. But whether you're young or old, survivors have something else to worry about, their symptoms may linger and persist much longer than we first realized. In fact, those patients even have a name now. They are called the long-haulers.

Misconception number two, masks don't offer any protection against the coronavirus. You may have seen an image like this in your social media feed, but the truth is once we learned that people could spread the virus, even if they had no symptoms, masks became a must. Some studies have found that masks can reduce the amount of droplets that you breathe out by up to 90 percent.

Take a close look at this video. This is without a mask. Now with a mask, you can see how many fewer droplets are being expelled. And a surgical mask has something else, electro-statically charged fibers that can grab viral particles, kind of like a blanket will grab your socks in a dryer.

Misconception number three, you can only catch COVID-19 if you've been in close contact with someone who actually has symptoms. You remember that choir in Washington State? Out of 61 members, there was only one symptomatic person. After two and a half hours of singing, 87 percent of the participants became infected.

It was early evidence that the virus could spread not just through touch or through respiratory droplets but through something known as aerosols. Think of those as suspended viral particles, lingering in the air for a while and also traveling much farther than six feet.

Misconception number four, everyone will be able to get a vaccine this winter.

MONCEF SLAOUI, CHIEF ADVISER, OPERATION WARP SPEED: We'll have a few million in November and maybe 10, 20 million of each in December. That will be enough to vaccinate certain populations.

GUPTA: Truth is, while everyone is hopeful, we're still not even sure if the vaccine is going to work, and no one has yet seen all of the data. If a vaccine is authorized for emergency use, first people to get it are likely going to be health care workers and particularly vulnerable individuals. But for the rest of the general public, it's looking more like the middle of 2021.

There's still a lot we need to learn but we need to stay focused on what science tells us can help us overcome this now. I'm as excited as anyone about the prospects of a vaccine. But in the meantime, there are simple and very effective things we can do ourselves to change the trajectory of this pandemic. Wash your hands, avoid large gathering, wear a mask.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: So important, Dr. Gupta, thank you very much for that reporting, as always, keeping the facts at the fore.

While protests across the country last night, two police officers shot in Louisville, Kentucky, after the news that none of the three officers involved in the shooting death of Breonna Taylor would be directly charged for her killing. We're going to have reaction from her family, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:25:00]

HARLOW: Well, two police officers this morning are recovering, they are in stable condition, this is after they were shot while responding to protests in Louisville, Kentucky, overnight. Outrage on display across the nation after news broke that none of the three officers involved in the killing of Breonna Taylor will be directly charged with her death.

SCIUTTO: The one officer was charged though with wanton endangerment in relationship to shooting into the apartment next door to Breonna Taylor, not the shots fired, of course, the deadly ones fired against her.

[10:30:00]

CNN's Brynn Gingras joins us from Louisville. And, Brynn, I wonder, just quickly, what the situation is like on the ground there now, and how is Breonna Taylor's family?