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Remembering Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Aired 9:30-10a ET
Aired September 25, 2020 - 09:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[09:30:00]
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We are just seeing the motorcade now, as well as the hearse, pulling up here to the Capitol, as they move slowly along the procession here.
You can see everyone standing at attention. There is the deputy sergeant of arms who will actually escort the family inside of the U.S. Capitol. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, as well as Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, will greet the motorcade and greet the family as they make their way here.
They are precisely on time. We are expecting that they will get out of the motorcade. There will be a group that will be escorted outside to the back entrance and then, of course, you will see the casket as it will travel up those east steps, up to the rotunda and through to the Statutory Hall.
And at 10:00 is when that memorial service will begin. It is a private ceremony because of the coronavirus. That has been many -- many opportunities for the public, as I've seen thousands and thousands of people gather outside the Supreme Court since Friday to pay their respects. But this is really a moment, a journey, if you will, that is so appropriate for the justice to simply make her way from the Supreme Court to the U.S. Capitol where so many of these legislate live battles have been fought and where there is one underway for her replacement.
Jim.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Suzanne, thanks so much.
Of course we noted that her dying wish, as recounted by her family, was that she be replaced by the next president.
Poppy.
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: How appropriate and how perfectly said, Suzanne, I'm just thinking as we wait for her casket to emerge, how appropriate that the woman who called herself a flaming feminist litigator, as she was for decades before she sat on the high court, will also be the first woman ever to receive the honor of lying in state at the Capitol there in Statuary Hall. A woman and a justice and a mother and a wife who contributed so much to this country and who, remember when she was nominated in that Rose Garden announcement, President Bill Clinton called her a person of immense character.
Ariane de Vogue, you have a beautiful piece this morning on CNN.com where you and Joan look at the life that she was living just before she died, a life that she expected would go on much longer and that she wrote to a dear friend recently, I am looking forward to brighter days when this eerie time ends.
ARIAN DE VOGUE, CNN SUPREME COURT REPORTER: Right.
You know what's interesting, it's almost remarkable that -- how surprised her former colleagues, her former clerks, even some journalists were by her death. I mean, after all, she was 87 years old. But this tiny woman had herculean strength. You remember she worked through those five bouts of cancer. I remember when she stayed up all night, pulled an all-nighter to write a voting rights dissent.
And then, this last term was very brutal. There was big cases. She knew she had cancer. She continued to work. She was the dominant voice in an abortion case.
And then after the term, the emergency petitions kept coming in. Meanwhile, she was communicating with friends. And, in fact, she was writing a book with one of her former clerks.
So that's what was so extraordinary about her. And it was picked up a little bit by Chief Justice John Roberts yesterday because he seemed surprised, but he said finally, in the end, Poppy, fate won out on this remarkable life.
HARLOW: Yes. Yes.
SCIUTTO: I spoke to one of her former clerks this morning who said that one thing he noted about her was that Ginsburg was every -- worked every bit as hard on the smallest cases as the biggest ones. She wanted to get everything absolutely right.
What you're seeing there right there is the military honor guard that will escort her casket into Statutory Hall in the Capitol. Each -- there are five guards of honor, each representing the five branched of the armed forces, Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard. And, again, one more sign of the special honor that this is, as we noted, first woman to lie in state in history, and a long history of this country, remarkable, the first woman to lie in state at the U.S. Capitol.
Suzanne, who's up there on The Hill as we await for the casket to leave the hearse, this is an invitation only ceremony today. The invited senators have been requested to be in their seats in Statutory Hall.
Tell us why. Statuary Hall, I should say.
MALVEAUX: Well, one of the reasons clearly is because of coronavirus. The Capitol has been closed to the public since the virus began and they are keeping the numbers quite small. they are trying to -- it's invitation only. And what you'll see is dignitaries. You'll also see the leadership in Congress.
[09:35:01]
A small group. We will -- we do expect to see the Democratic nominee, the vice president -- former Vice President Joe Biden and Jill Biden, as well as his running mate, Kamala Harris, that they will be attending this private ceremony.
There will be some opportunities, however, for senators and members of Congress to go by and pay their tributes and respects to the casket later after about 10:30 or so. Groups of 40 will be going from the House and the senators as well, and that will be about opportunity.
But as Poppy had mentioned, you know, the history that's being made and Speaker Pelosi, as her peer, you are going to see at the very end as the casket is leaving the Capitol, a group of women, a bipartisan group of members of Congress, who will be giving the final farewell.
HARLOW: They were actually quite close friends. Speaker Pelosi remembered and said just a few days ago when the justice told her before the public knew that she was battling cancer. So Speaker Pelosi there not only a peer but also a close friend of the late justice.
Jeffrey Toobin, to you.
The arc of her life. This is a woman, who other than the Chief Justice, argued the most cases before this court for decades before she sat on the court, who head the ACLU's Women's Rights Project. I mean, because of her, women could have credit cards. Because of her, women could sit on juries in all states. I mean so many things just in the early '70s women didn't have, but changed because of her.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: You know, she is the only member of the Supreme Court since Thurgood Marshall who would have been a major figure in American history, even if she had never served on the Supreme Court at all. Put aside the 27 years on the Supreme Court. That's how significant her contribution was.
You know, I'm just -- I was sitting -- you know, I'm staring at the same picture that we all are and looking at the magnitude and the honor and thinking about where she came from.
HARLOW: Yes.
TOOBIN: You know, she was born in 1933 at the peak of the Depression. When she was a little girl, her even younger sister died of leukemia. When she was 14, her mother died, you know? A transformative, horrific event that, you know, after a long bout with cancer. And, you know, her father tried to -- you know, raised the family by himself. He was a mostly unsuccessful furrier in New York City. I mean the distance she came from those really difficult, early days to a farewell like this is really one of the great American stories.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
TOOBIN: And it's just -- it's just the arc of her life is epic in its scale and importance.
HARLOW: Yes.
SCIUTTO: Yes, you go to her high school in Brooklyn, James Maddison High School, you look at the alums from there. Bernie Sanders.
TOOBIN: Chuck Schumer.
SCIUTTO: Chuck Schumer. Norm Coleman. Chris Rock. I mean it's a cross section of America through the years.
HARLOW: There you go.
SCIUTTO: Again, there's the honor guard waiting to escort the casket of the late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
Joan Biskupic, you've covered the court. You've covered Ginsburg. I wonder if you can tell us the change that the court is about to experience as a result of her passing, and we should note the president has said tomorrow he's going to announce his nominee to replace her. And the Senate has said they will vote on that nominee.
JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SUPREME COURT ANALYST: We really can't overstate the transformation that's about to happen. We've already had a very conservative court, a 5-4 conservative court. It's about to go 6-3 conservative. And the equality rights that Ruth Bader Ginsburg fought for are just one of many, many types of rights and liberties that are now in the balance in a much more serious way.
And she, you know, when she started, Jim, she was a much more measured jurist. She was -- she herself was more of an incrementalist from her time on a lower court. But through the years on the Supreme Court, as it became more conservative in the majority, she moved to the left and certainly had inspired the total of four justices who were still liberals on the court and now there will only be three. And the contrast between a Donald Trump successor to Ruth Bader Ginsburg really takes us back to, you know, at minimum when Clarence Thomas succeeded another civil rights icon, Thurgood Marshall.
HARLOW: Yes.
BISKUPIC: So, so much ahead from immediately with the election to, you know, gun rights, civil rights, everything, Jim. Everything.
[09:40:04]
SCIUTTO: Yes.
Poppy, you know, yesterday I got in a conversation with someone who studied her cases as a lawyer in law school waiting in line to view the casket and he made the point, which I had heard before is, part of her brilliance in arguing these equal rights cases early on was that she took on cases where men were impacted negatively by the law to argue for equal treatment under the law, knowing at the time she would most likely be facing only male judges, right? And that was her path to argue some of the cases early on, which is, you know, just one of those signs of her brilliance.
HARLOW: You're so right, Jim. I'm glad you brought that up. And I love the picture you sent me yesterday while you were waiting in line. I just think it spoke -- it spoke a thousand words to see how long the line was for people to pay their respects and just to have a glimpse of her casket.
And, Jeffrey Toobin, to you. I mean it was brilliant. You and I together interviewed Stephen Wiesenfeld, a case she took to the high court and argued before, guess what, nine male justices. She knew to convince the men that things were unequal for women, she might need to use a man to make the case.
TOOBIN: I mean the Wiesenfeld case is such an interesting and tragic story that really I think was her favorite case that she ever argued because the facts were so resonant. If I can just summarize it very quickly --
HARLOW: Yes.
TOOBIN: Stephen Wiesenfeld was married and his wife died in childbirth. A terrible, terrible, sad story. He -- under the prevailing tax law at the time, as a widower he received less benefits than a widow would have received. And that was on the assumption that men make more money than women. But it was an explicit discrimination in the law. She took that case to the Supreme Court and she won. The Supreme Court said that there was no basis in the law to distinguish between men and women and they have to be treated equally. That principle was one that was used in several different cases where she and other feminist lawyers brought cases that -- where men were discriminated against.
Another one of those famous cases involved beer, I believe it was in Oklahoma --
HARLOW: Yes.
TOOBIN: Where there was a lower drinking age for women than there was for men --
HARLOW: That's right.
TOOBIN: For 3.2 beer, for low alcohol beer. That case, the court decided that that was unlawful discrimination.
And there are two points to make about this. One is that these victories were, of course, later used to change laws that discriminated against women. But the other point -- and this is something Ruth Ginsburg often stressed, was that she felt that when laws against discrimination against women were invalidated, were ended, it helped men as well as women. That equality was a value that wasn't just something women benefited from, it benefited everyone.
HARLOW: Yes.
TOOBIN: And she always talked about how women's rights were actually human rights in a phrase that came to be used later by Hillary Clinton.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
TOOBIN: And I think history has proved her right about that.
SCIUTTO: Well, a message that still is so meaningful today in the midst of the racial crisis in this country.
Suzanne Malveaux, of course, Ruth Bader Ginsburg was a jurist. She was also a human being. A wife, a mother with loves. Tell us about her loves outside the law.
MALVEAUX: Well, Jim, one of the most interesting stories and passionate stories that she loves to tell, we will actually hear from Denise Graves. She is the soprano opera singer. It was -- it really is her love of opera and of music. And she tells the story of -- it was back in 1944, 1945, she was just an 11-year-old girl and she happened to meet a man by the name of Dean Dixon (ph). And he actually was a train conductor. He was an African-American man. He was a train conductor. But he was also a musician and he was a musical conductor. But at the time he couldn't find a job. Could not get a job in the United States at that time. So he went from city to city and specifically New York City, where he played these concerts, little, small concerts for children. And Ruth Bader Ginsburg was one of those children.
And she heard his story. She learned about his story. And she became keenly aware, even as a child, of the racial disparities and the inequality.
[09:45:00]
And it really is an interesting intersection, if you will, of the two loves, the fact that she was very much aware of racial inequality and that it was, in fact, this African-American man who introduced her to music and to the love of opera, which, of course, she carried well into her adulthood.
HARLOW: We are just seeing some of these first images inside there as they await -- inside the Capitol as they await the casket of the late justice. We know that the former vice president and former second lady, Joe and Jill Biden, have arrived. You'll see them in moments.
Joan Biskupic, I'm reminded of something she said.
There you see them right there as they're waiting.
I'm reminded of something she said. This was a while ago, 2002, at Brown University. Quote, do your part to help move society to the place you would like it to be for the health and well-being of generations following your own. She did that, as Jeffrey just explained, for women and for men on the equality front. And that is why, as you said, she has been compared so often to the late Justice Thurgood Marshall.
But she didn't like that comparison. Tell us why. BISKUPIC: Well, you know, it's interesting, she -- she had a certain
personal wisdom about her. And she felt that all of us -- all of the justices, all of the litigators came to the position with their own distinct empathies. And she really broke ground that was different than her predecessors.
And, Poppy, earlier, when you were referring to that scene in the Rose Garden and what President Clinton said of her --
HARLOW: Yes.
BISKUPIC: I was reminded of what she then said in return that pulls together many of the strands we've been talking about here. She talked about her late mother who died right before her high school graduation and made it impossible for her to go and pick up all the honors she had won academically. And she said on national television that day in June of 2000 -- in 1993, I just pray that I can be the justice that my mother could have been if she had lived at a time when women were allowed to aspire and achieve and at a time when daughters were as cherished as sons.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
BISKUPIC: So, you know, she -- all of these things that you're bring up here --
SCIUTTO: Joan --
BISKUPIC: Oh, pardon me, Jim?
SCIUTTO: Just as you mentioned daughters and sons --
BISKUPIC: Yes.
SCIUTTO: At the top of the steps now greeting her casket.
BISKUPIC: Right.
SCIUTTO: Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, but also members of her family. Her daughter Jane, who's a law professor at Colombia, following in the family business, if you want to call it that. Her son James as well.
Let's listen in as we watch this moment.
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SCIUTTO: So what's happening now is the casket being escorted there into Statutory Hall in the Capitol. Sergeant at Arms that will escort along with the military honor guard.
Already seated there, senators invited, also escorting the casket, we should note, the late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg's family, her daughters -- her daughter Jane, her son James. She also has two grandchildren, Clara and Paul.
One note, when she arrives in Statutory Hall there on that black platform, it's known at the Lincoln Catafalque. It was built for President Lincoln. And since then it's been something of the great unifier because Republicans, Democrats, nine Supreme Court justices have lain on that same platform. Presidents, JFK, Eisenhower, LBJ, Reagan, Ford, Bush, all lain on that same spot.
But what's unique about this, this is the first woman in our country's long history to lie in state in the U.S. Capitol building. Something reserved for Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
HARLOW: Jeffrey Toobin, one of the things that people may not know about her, who didn't have a chance to spend time with her, and you covered her just so closely, is that she really was also quite humble, didn't have the loudest voice, didn't speak the most words, but every word she spoke, people listened to intently, right? A precise jurist.
TOOBIN: She was a precise jurist and a precise person.
HARLOW: Yes.
TOOBIN: And, you know, one of the -- one of the unnerving things about talking to Justice Ginsburg is that she was a person uniquely comfortable with silence.
HARLOW: Yes.
TOOBIN: That when -- when you --
HARLOW: Epic silence, Jeffrey. Epic silence.
TOOBIN: Yes. And you would talk to law clerks and particularly people coming in for interviews with her to become law clerks, and they would be sitting, talking to her, and, obviously, they were nervous in such circumstances.
[09:55:00]
And Justice Ginsburg was comfortable with pauses in conversation. But many of us are not comfortable with those sorts of pauses. So, particularly with these nervous recent law school graduates, they would often describe starting to babble like idiots because they were so anxious to fill the silence. But Justice Ginsburg didn't mind silence in conversation.
HARLOW: Right.
TOOBIN: Another thing, though, about her personality that I think is worth pointing out, she had one of the great marriages that I think that any one of us, who knew them, you know, were aware of. Marty Ginsburg was a lawyer himself. They were, of course, law school classmates at Harvard and Columbia. And he was a very distinguished tax lawyer and tax professor.
But he was a very outgoing person. He was very friendly. He was the life of the party. He was a famously great chef. Ruth Ginsburg was sort of in the background when they were together. When Marty died in 2010, that was kind -- I mean God knows it was a terrible thing for Ruth to lose her husband, but it also was a kind of social blossoming for her.
And one reason why, you know, the cult of RBG, and notorious RBG, and all of the celebrity she achieved late in life, that was because she was much more of a public figure after 2010. But I will be quiet and let us see the proceedings.
HARLOW: OK. So you have her family members have come in. You saw Speaker Pelosi, Minority Leader of the Senate Chuck Schumer. And now they will bring in the casket of late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
Again, let's just listen to this moment in history.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mark time. Bearers, halt.
[10:00:00]
Center face. Side step. March.
