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Trump Stands By Refusal To Commit To Peaceful Transition, Keeps Up Attacks On Election Legitimacy; A Supreme Life: Remembering Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired September 25, 2020 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:46]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Live pictures here at the United States Capitol. Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the late Supreme Court Justice is the first woman to lie in state, first Jewish person to lie on state, at the United States Capitol. The ceremonies there will end shortly. You see the hearse on the Capitol grounds. The casket carrying the late Justice will be carried out by an honor guard, her family members, our presidents, and former clerks as well.

Lawmakers have been paying tribute today. We will return to the Capitol live as the ceremony concludes and the hearses -- I'm sorry, the casket is carried out at the Capitol to that awaiting hearse. We will be back there live momentarily. You see the flag at half-staff there at the United States Capitol.

In the meantime, the President's repeated attacks on the integrity of the election process are part of a deliberate strategy. If he loses the November vote count, he is preparing to challenge it in court as a fraud, which is why he will not commit to honoring the results and leaving office if he loses.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have to be very careful with the ballots, the ballots, that's a whole big scam. We want to make sure the election is honest. And I'm not sure that it can be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: It is a strategy that ignores the facts about mail-in voting and it is a strategy that insults our democratic history and norms. And it is a strategy that puts his Republican Party in an awkward place. Many Republican officials are standing with the President in fighting efforts to expand mail-in voting during this coronavirus pandemic. But there is a clear break from the President on the question of a peaceful and orderly transition.

Here with me now to discuss this, the former Governor of Ohio, John Kasich and former Utah Congresswoman, Mia Love. Both are Republicans. I will say neither is a huge fan of the way the current President conducts himself. And so Governor Kasich, I want to start with you. Governors run elections and state election boards and county election boards run elections. I want you to listen here to Lindsey Graham. He's the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. And on the surface, this sounds OK, listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I promise you as a Republican, if the Supreme Court rules in favor of Joe Biden, I will accept that result. No matter who challenges the results of the election, eventually the Supreme Court is likely to hear that challenge. And when they rule that is the end of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: When they rule, that is the end of it. We all live through Bush v. Gore together back in 2000. But that is the exception. You have the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee essentially saying this election is going to the Supreme Court. It doesn't have to go to the Supreme Court if the states do their job, even if it takes a week, we will know who won the election. The Republicans are setting this up. We're going to confirm a new justice. And it has to go to the Supreme Court. Does it have to?

JOHN KASICH, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, John, you've been around this, you know, very long time. And I've been around --

KING: Too long I think, sometimes.

KASICH: -- really. The answer is, no. It doesn't have to. At some point, somebody is going to determine AP is going to get together with all the other news media and they're going to make a call just like they do all the time. And once the call is made, that'll be the end of it. People can go to court and they can challenge the result. But it doesn't mean it's going to go to the Supreme Court or it doesn't mean whether the challenge will actually happen. It doesn't mean that the challenge will be legitimate.

So I'm not overly worked up about that. And let me also say, John, when the President spending his time talking about this, he's completely off the message that he needs to have. And so if you look around at what's happening in the last few days, if you check the polls, and you know this, the support is not going well for him. He's losing support, because he's not on message and he's distracted with this.

So it's a mistake in many different ways. The fact that he is casting aspersions on the legitimacy of an election and saying who knows what's going to happen and this is all fraud and everything else. But the second thing is I think he's hurting himself politically.

KING: And Congresswoman Love, he, Governor Kasich makes an important point. The President for whatever reason he does this, but let's go back in time. This includes recent and all the way back into 2016. This President constantly tries to attack and question the legitimacy of this government or this country's most sacred institutions, listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will you commit to making sure that there is a peaceful transfer of power after the election?

[12:35:00]

TRUMP: Well, we're going to have see what happens. You know that I've been complaining very strongly about the ballots and the ballots are a disaster.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you give a direct answer you will accept the election?

TRUMP: I have to see.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you make the same commitment that you will absolutely, Sir, that you will absolutely accept the result of this election.

TRUMP: I will look at it at the time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: I did, well, I guess I get it, Congresswoman, but into the Governor's point that the AP and the networks will make a call. I hope the AP and the networks don't make a call this year. I hope we wait. I hope we are patient. I hope we let the state secretaries of state certify the results so there is zero confusion. But to the point that the President makes about repeatedly questioning, I will wait. It's not his call. States decide election. State counts the votes that we know who did it. And then we honor the results, right?

MIA LOVE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, the first thing I'd like to say is that at least he's consistent. We can consistently know what the President is going to say about this. But I do agree with Governor Kasich, that this really hurts the -- his campaign. I would prefer and many Republicans would prefer that he goes out and talks about policy, he talks about the economy, he talks about jobs, because that's what most Americans want him to talk about.

And let me say one more thing. If there is a problem, which by the way, the State of Utah does mail-in ballots very well. We worked out a lot of the kinks. But it works really well in our state. We've been doing it for several years. And it's actually pretty effective. But if there is a problem, what we want a leader to say is, here are the facts. These are the areas where we're going to have a problem. And by the way, don't worry about it because we have solutions set in place. We're working with those states. We're working with those local jurisdictions to make sure that your vote is counted. That is what people would prefer to hear from a leader.

KING: And Governor, I want to ask, you have some unique perspective you can bring to this conversation, in this sense that you've won election at the House level. You Remember the House of Representatives. You've won election statewide in a very competitive state, very competitive state, Ohio. You've run for president and you've gone around the country. And you might not like the results of how the Republican primaries worked out. But you were part of contests in several states. Is there as the President says, widespread, massive voter fraud in the United States?

KASICH: No, there's not. And the head of the FBI said yesterday, you know, in testifying that this is not an issue in our state. Look in our state, John, I don't know if you are aware of this. But if you cast an absentee ballot or the day before the election, then that ballot will be counted up to 10 days after the election.

And yes, I don't know what's going to happen in terms of election night, like we've traditionally seen it because there are going to be states that don't have in place some of the processes we have in Ohio. For example, they're able to start a process about the absentee ballots without counting it. But they could get themselves in a position where it becomes more effective. I don't know how many states have done that.

But we've had a long history of mail-in voting. And people here have not thought that it was -- there was anything bad about it, anything untoward that it that it was not fair and honest. So, you know, again, we're going to have a good result. There will be a time at which the states will say turn in their results that will be called and we'll move on. And you can go to court all the time you want. But if you don't have a case, you're not going to get anywhere.

KING: Well, that I think one of the suspicions is the President wants the Supreme Court nominee in place in case it gets that far, that person would automatically side with him. Let's hope that's not the case. That all of the justices do this based on the facts. Governor Kasich, Congresswoman Love, appreciate your time and insights today. We unfortunately we have --

KASICH: Thanks John.

KING: -- to continue this conversation.

I want to show you some live pictures now up on Capitol Hill. We are waiting of course for the ceremony. The departure of the late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, she has been lying in state in the United States Capitol.

Joan Biskupic, our Supreme Court reporter and biographer joins the conversation now. Joan, it is a final farewell. It is a historic farewell and Ruth Bader Ginsburg a trailblazer in life. I love the way "The New York Times" put this earlier today in their alert, saying breaking one final barrier as the country says farewell to this legal icon, the first woman, the first Jewish person to lie in state, in the United States Capitol.

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SUPREME COURT ANALYST: Yes, John. You know, it's so compelling right now to think we're even closing this last chapter on her life as we'll see her casket be taken down the steps there.

You know, all these things she's done through her life. She was born in 1933. But she essentially did not become the Notorious RBG until she was 80 years old. That nickname arose from a 2013 dissent she had written that went viral. And a law student in New York University started that. And it's been picked up.

[12:40:03]

And I was thinking yesterday when I saw all these families with their young sons and daughters bringing bouquets of flowers over to the Supreme Court, where her the -- she was lying in repose, that every step of her life has been trailblazing until the very end, even in her 80s and even in this moment, as she makes history once again in her death at age 87.

So it's historic. And I think what it says to all of us and to the public out there watching right now, John, is that this chapter is not being closed, that her legal legacy for a quality will certainly live on. And that kind of personal inspiration that she had for people in her last decade, will certainly endure. And I think that both the equality rulings that she pioneered, and the sort of fierce Notorious RBG pumping iron, even in her 80s will continue to be in the American eye.

KING: And it's an important point you make and you see it, and you have female members of Congress both the House and the Senate here to say farewell. There were not as many women in the United States Congress when Ruth Bader Ginsburg first as an attorney was pushing cases before the court and then as a justice adjust -- and then as a judge and justice was making huge advancements for women in the law where there have been huge, huge advances for women in politics as well.

That is part of the legacy here for younger people watching when Ruth Bader Ginsburg was appointed to the court 27 years ago, she was the second woman, Sandra Day O'Connor was still on the court then. And after Sandra Day O'Connor left for a long time, she was the only woman on the court, Joan, and you know full well from your work. That was a source of contention for Justice Ginsburg, not that she didn't appreciate, admire her colleagues, and respect her male colleagues. But she didn't like walking into the chamber and being surrounded by men.

BISKUPIC: You know, there was a period in there. And I spoke to her a lot then and she gave -- she made several observations. It would have been, John, just so our viewers know of in January of 2006, when Sandra Day O'Connor retired until August of 2009, when Sonia Sotomayor came on as President Barack Obama's first pick then. And she gave me so many tales that reminded me of just what it's like to be the only woman on the scene, even in our modern era.

For example, she commented on sometimes when they would go around the conference table, the very private conference table, when not even law clerks have joined the nine justices. And they would all voice their views. She said, sometimes she would say something, no one would react. And then one of her male colleagues would say exactly the same thing. And everyone would be like, yes, right on, that's smart. And she said, it reminded her back in the 1970s when as a law professor and women's rights advocate, she would, you know, put in her commentary or suggest a line of litigation, and people would brush it off until the male would say it. And there she was in the 2000s, with, you know, fellow Supreme Court justices, and feeling a little bit of not being heard, not being heard.

And so that came during that period. And then there was another incident, John, that I like to remind folks of. It was during a period in early 2009, again, she was the only female justice. And it was at a time when her pancreatic cancer had emerged. And she was undergoing a lot of really tough treatment. So she was battling this episode of cancer. But Barack Obama was about to speak to a joint session of Congress. This was in February of 2009. And, you know, she was sick, but she was still hearing cases. And she decided she really wanted to go to that joint session of Congress.

And shortly afterward, I talked to her I said, you know, what was that like? How could you rouse yourself from your sick bed to do this? And she said, I wanted to show the American people that the Supreme Court was not all men. And then in her sly, cheeky humor, she said, and I wanted to show that one senator that I was still alive. You might have remembered that Jim Bunning, a Republican from Kentucky had said soon after her pancreatic cancer was discovered in 2009 that she'd probably be dead soon.

Now, I'm sorry to say that Jim Bunning has since passed away and Ruth Bader Ginsburg obviously is not with us anymore. But she did survive from 2009. But she was aware of what people were saying of her. And she was aware that she wanted to show people that she was alive and well and still doing her job. And what she even said just about a month ago or six weeks ago, John, when she had to speak publicly again about the recurrence of the cancer was that she said, I will continue to sit as a justice as long as I can do the work. And she did the work up until just about, you know, the middle of this month when things took a sudden turn.

[12:45:28]

KING: Joan, please stay with us. For anyone who's joined us just in the past few minutes. What you're seeing here is a remarkable scene outside of the United States Capitol. The late Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the first woman to lie in state at the United States Capitol, the ceremonies there will end momentarily. We are waiting for the casket, carrying the late Justice to be brought out down those steps to a hearse. And it was a remarkable scene.

If you look there, it's hard to see from a distance perhaps but center left at the bottom of the stairs is the Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, the most powerful woman in American politics. Center right is Chuck Schumer, the Senate Democratic leader. You see the doors opening at the top of the stairs, the Honor Guard opening the doors there. Once we see the procession. We will be silent and let it play out. But this is the final tribute to the late Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ready first, forward march.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: March time, first, halt. Ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step, ready, step. Forward march.

[12:51:17

Ready, step, forward march.

KING: Watching there -- you're watching there the police escort, that hearse carrying the casket, the body of the late Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. This is the nation's final farewell. There is a private burial service plan by the Ginsburg family, for family members and close friends.

But the final public farewell, the final public tribute was history. Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg the first woman to lie in state there at the United States Capitol. You see on the step saying farewell. There are clerk, former clerks there, there are Hill aides there aligning the steps lawmakers from both parties, most of them women, women in the United States House, women in the United States Senate.

The Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer at the bottom center right of your screen there, waving goodbye. He just turned the Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi. Ruth Bader Ginsburg was the daughter of Brooklyn, Chuck Schumer, of course, from the State of New York. Nancy Pelosi, the most powerful woman in American politics long a fan of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, a legal trailblazer on the court.

Let's continue our conversation. Our CNN chief political correspondent Dana Bash is with us. I want to start with Joan Biskupic, our Supreme Court analyst and biographer. It is a remarkable scene. And again, Joan, we were talking about this at the beginning. As an attorney first and then as a Justice, Ruth Bader Ginsburg was a trailblazer changed American law tilted it to respect and honor women in a way Thurgood Marshall tilted it to respect and honor blacks and other minorities in this country.

The Ruth Bader Ginsburg became bigger than that because of the power of those dissents because of that law student that named her Notorious RBG. She was both justice and somehow pop culture celebrity.

[12:55:07]

BISKUPIC: She was, John. And one of the things she -- that Ruth Bader Ginsburg embodied that I felt so much in this moment as we saw the casket go down the steps, she was elegant, precise, and spare. And there's really nothing good in this COVID era. But there was something about seeing the marble steps there, without a lot of people on them and the casket and her life and her body. They're coming down alone that I thought reflected kind of her pioneering and her precision and her elegance.

Her -- it was tough to see that car drive away in the end. And one thing that I just can't help but think of, again, is what she herself said, some 27 years ago, when President Bill Clinton unveiled her nomination in the Rose Garden. She said, I pray that I may be as a justice, what my mother might have been, if my mother might have lived in an era when women were appreciated and could aspire, and that daughters were as cherished as sons.

KING: That is a remarkable line. And Dana Bash you know that neighborhood. And you understand this moment, as well as anyone, it's fitting, I thought, to show the pictures down the steps directly across the street there is the Supreme Court. On 28 hours from now, we will shift to a very different conversation about the Supreme Court. The President will have his pick. We will be in a very partisan election year battle. We can deal with that tomorrow.

Today, the late Justice being carried down those steps, past that parade of predominantly women members of the House and the Senate. I'm sitting here as a male anchoring the program, but so much has changed in the law, in our politics, even in the business we work in. And Ruth Bader Ginsburg was part of blazing that trail.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. Finding ways to connect the notion of equal rights under the law to apply first, following the trail of those who push for it for people of color in this country and connecting that to women. And doing it as we've heard, Joan, say so many times, piece by piece, case by case, brick by brick in a very methodical, careful way, before she even thought about being on the federal bench much less the Supreme Court.

I also have to say in watching this moment, and listening to the speakers earlier, the fact that we had not just the first woman to lie in state, but the first Jewish person and to hear a rabbi say the words, tzedek, tzedek, which is justice, justice, which is obviously what her whole being was about, was something that I don't think any of us will forget.

KING: A remarkable moment, a remarkable moment in history. I'm glad to have Joan Biskupic, Dana Bash to share it with us. Again, you see the pictures of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, be laid to rest in a private ceremony. This, the nation's farewell, the first woman to lie in state, the United States Capitol, the first Jewish person, it is a great and fitting tribute.

Brianna Keilar picks up our coverage after a quick break. Have a good day.

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