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Sources Say, Trump Has Lost Patience with CDC Director as Sober Warnings Contradict Trump's Rosy Messaging; Trump Escalates Grave Threats on American Democracy; U.S. Coronavirus Cases Set to Surpass 7 Million Today. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired September 25, 2020 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[13:00:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN RIGHTNOW: Hello. I'm Brianna Keilar, and I want to welcome viewers here in the United States and around the world.

America's chaotic coronavirus response just took a disturbing new turn as the president has lost faith in not just the director of CDC but his other public health officials. Sources are telling CNN the president is upset over Dr. Redfield and others delivering sobering warnings about the virus and the future of the pandemic, which contradict his rosy messaging.

He is also upset that treatments and therapies aren't moving as fast as he wants as he publicly contradicts scientists and doctors on vaccine timelines, as he continues mock masks, ignore social distancing guidelines and undermine public health officials on their advice on everything from schools to testing.

It also comes as his new task force proxy, Dr. Scott Atlas, who has pushed for herd immunity, publicly undermined Redfield this week when Redfield said that 90 percent of Americans are still susceptible to the virus.

I want to bring in Dana Bash, she's our Chief Political Correspondent here. And, Dana, he's lost faith here in people that are operating their pandemic response based on reality, and it's not just Robert Redfield.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: No, it's not. And, look, it's what he's lost faith in is the notion that the people who are trying to abide by science and lead by science and help with the recovery from and the response to this virus with science that that's how they're focused and not on the politics and now what the president thinks is right for his legacy or more importantly and more immediately his re-election.

We have seen this time and time again, Brianna. I'm sure you have lost count how many times we have seen the people who are really at the tip of the spear, scientifically, saying things in public either at press conferences and interviews or as we did this week under oath, speaking to the really important committee that is in charge of oversight of the government's response and saying exactly what it is and giving the facts.

And that's what we should be seeing. And then we should be seeing a government and a federal response led by the facts. But that's not what we have seen for the most part for the past six months.

KEILAR: It's also noteworthy that you have the chief of staff at the White House, Mark Meadows, escalating attacks against the FBI director, Chris Wray, and this has to do with Wray's recent comments about the safety of elections and voter fraud. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK MEADOWS, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: With all due respect to Director Wray, he has a hard time finding emails at his own FBI, let alone figuring out whether there's any kind of voter fraud.

Perhaps he needs to get involved on the ground and he would change his testimony on Capitol Hill.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: I mean, Dana, Wray was picked by Trump and he certainly seems, when you listen to this testimony that he gave, he seems to have chosen his words pretty carefully. So what's so controversial about what he's saying?

BASH: What's controversial is that he is not message. He is not on political message with the president of the United States. And the fact that the president sent his chief of staff out to reprimand the FBI director, who, as you said, was choosing his words carefully and, again, was speaking under oath before Congress is just another data point in so many remarkable and unfortunate moments that we have seen during this presidency.

Look, also remember the context here, Chris Wray is already in the doghouse with the president and with people who support him for not being more aggressive on, for example, investigating Joe Biden, investigating Barack Obama for things that nobody believes are legitimate reasons. But that's what his expectation is. His expectation has been that law enforcement officials, particularly those he appoints, work for him and not the people.

And that is what we just saw play out with the FBI director working for the people and his chief of staff going out there saying, that's not what we expect from you.

KEILAR: All right, Dana, thank you so much. We really appreciate it.

President Trump is once again casting doubt on whether he will accept the results of the election and agreed to a pillar of American democracy, which is the peaceful transfer of power from one president to the next.

[13:05:01]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Are the elections results only legitimate if you win?

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: So we have to be very careful with the ballots. The ballots, that's a whole big scam.

We want to make sure the election is honest and I'm not sure it can be. I don't know that it can be with this whole situation, unsolicited ballots, they're unsolicited, millions being sent to everybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: All right. Let's just be very clear here. The president's claims about unsolicited are not accurate. His own FBI director telling lawmakers Thursday there is no evidence of widespread voter fraud.

But let's look beyond the rhetoric to the actions. These are the states where voting is already under way. And right now, the Trump campaign and Republican officials at the state and local level are actively engaged in efforts to make it harder for voters to cast a ballot, particularly by mail.

But there is a double standard here. Because while Trump is continuing his attacks on mail-in voting, he is encouraging it in Michigan and Florida but only if you are one of his supporters.

CNN has new analysis of data from election officers in 42 states and Washington, D.C., and indicates that this election is going to have a record-shattering turnout. We'll be going through those numbers here in just a moment.

In response to the president's rhetoric, the Senate on Thursday unanimously agreed to what should be obvious, that passing a resolution -- this is what they passed, a resolution that the chamber is committed to the orderly and peaceful transfer of power.

Here is the Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL: We've had an orderly transfer of power every four years since Washington was selected for a second term in 1792. That will happen again to the winner of the November 3rd election on January 20th, 2021.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: But just this morning, White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows sidestepped this issue, saying that the president will commit to a peaceful transfer of power but failing to determine what the president views as fair.

So let's turn to the numbers now. As I mentioned, we have some new analysis and it shows that there is a surge in ballot requests and it's already breaking records. Already more than 28 million ballots have been requested and another 43 million are set to be automatically mailed to voters.

So those figures are already shattering the number of ballots that were cast pre-election day in 2016. This is according to a CNN survey of election offices in 42 states, as well as here in the District of Columbia.

I want to break all of this down now with our Political Director, David Chalian. And, I mean, this is unprecedented. Put it all into perspective for us.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: It is, Brianna. And it tracks with what we are seeing in all of the election polling that's out there about interest in the election, enthusiasm for wanting to cast your ballot.

Look at those numbers again that you put up about ballots requested and where ballots are just automatically mailed out. So you are looking at a universe of 71 million ballots already have been requested or will be sent to folks in states where they are automatically mailed out.

As you noted that's shattering how many were cast, 50 million pre- election votes, back in 2016. It is going to show just a dramatic, we are just at the beginning of this process, increase in Americans casting their ballot before Election Day.

What do we know about the return of those ballots? Well, it's just starting. People are just starting to vote. We've tallied that up to about 522,725 ballots have been cast nationally in the 12 states that are actually reporting out that information right now.

Brianna, obviously, in an election with -- going to have more than 130, 135, 140 million voters casting ballots, we are not even at the 1 percent mark there of the ballots being cast, but the process is under way, voters are voting.

KEILAR: So we are seeing this -- because of these numbers, we can see there's going to be this high turnout this election. What does that going to mean for where the race is right now?

CHALIAN: Well, I mean, it depends on the makeup of that turnout, right? I mean, just high turnout versus low turnout is not what informs the election results, it's who actually turns out in those numbers.

We are seeing some information, and as you know, Brianna, not every state has voters register by party. So we're not able to tell everywhere exactly what the partisan split is here but you can see the Democratic advantage right now in terms of ballots being requested, okay? 1.3 million net advantage for the Democrats in about six of the most contested battleground states that actually was able to share this information with our reporting team. This should not surprise anyone, right, because everything we have seen in all of the polling to date has indicated that Biden supporters and Democrats far more likely to say they want to cast their ballot either early in person or vote by mail absentee.

[13:10:05]

Trump supporters overwhelmingly say they want to cast their ballot in person on Election Day. These are two very significantly, politically different electorates. The pre-election day voting electorate and the election voting day electorate in this pandemic, and that is going to be critical to track all the way through election night and beyond.

KEILAR: All right, we'll be watching. David, thank you.

CHALIAN: Sure.

KEILAR: And next, I'll be speaking live with the author of The Art of the Deal author to respond to one columnist who is concerned the U.S. heading into a second civil war.

Plus, Dr. Fauci says America is still in the first wave of coronavirus, as we get disturbing new projections.

And a new study may show why some people get more severe cases of COVID than others.

This is CNN special live coverage.

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[13:15:00]

KEILAR: The president is setting a dangerous precedent using a false pretense. He has repeatedly claimed that if he loses, it is because the election is rigged. It is planted a seed of doubt in the minds of his supporters about the validity of the results even before the election has happened. And it is working. Just listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Do you think that if we get to election night or in the following days if Biden winds up somehow becoming the winner, do you think it's rigged?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh yes, very much so.

REPORTER: -- in election night and days after if it shows up and Joe Biden?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

REPORTER: In your opinion, would that be the only way that Trump could lose, that it would be a rigged election? Is that the only way Joe Biden can win? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely. I agree with that because there's no way in heck all president is going to lose. But, yes, it would be a rigged election, some type of cheating went on, what have you. And I firmly believe that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: I want to bring in Tony Schwartz, he co-authored The Art of The Deal and his new book, Dealing With The Devil, My Mother, Trump and Me, just released on Audible. It chronicles writing The Art of The Deal with President Trump and what it did to him.

So, Tony, we haven't spoken since the president floated this idea of not going along with a peaceful transition of power. What do you see in this?

TONY SCHWARTZ, DEALING WITH THE DEVIL, MY MOTHER, TRUMP AND ME: Well, no surprise. Trump plays outside the lines always, above the rules or below the rules. And he will do anything he can to stir up the chance that in the absence of enough votes, which is very likely now that he'll have some other way to steal the election. So I'm scarcely surprised, Brianna.

KEILAR: I know you have spent a lot of time with him as you wrote The Art of The Deal. You are more familiar than most with his impulses. What do you think is causing him to escalate this rhetoric here over the past couple of weeks?

SCHWARTZ: Terror of losing. I mean, it's literally no more complex than that. He never shows the terror but the terror shows up in his anger and his outrageousness. This is, you know -- we are in the 18,000s, Briann, on the number of lies that Trump has told over the last four years. And so this idea that mail-in voting will be fraudulent, all of that is simply one more piece of deceit that he hopes will push people in his direction.

KEILAR: I mean, you hear that he has pushed his supporters very much in this direction. He has successfully convincing them of this imaginary, widespread fraud.

SCHWARTZ: Yes. You know, the one powerful thing that Trump does is repeat. He rinses and he repeats. And so even if it's not true, even if it's outrageous, even if it's preposterous, he will say it so many times to people who want to believe everything he says, who do see him bizarrely but undeniably as a savior, this will -- this is what they want to hear.

They want to hear, reassure me, the guy who just said a moment ago, it can only be a rigged election. There is no way Donald Trump can lose. That's demented. That's diluted. I mean, even with no preference for one candidate or the other, we know that either candidate could win. So that repetitive style really is effective, especially with his base.

KEILAR: I want to listen to something that veteran columnist Tom Friedman said sounding the alarm about the president's actions. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM FRIEDEN, COLUMNIST, THE NEW YORK TIMES: You know, I began my career as a journalist covering Lebanon's second civil war in its history. And I'm terrified to find myself ending my career as a journalist covering America's potential second civil war in its history.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: You really believe that?

FRIEDEN: Yes. I think what happened in the last few days is a six- alarm fire. i think it's DEFCON-5. The president of the United States has told us either I will win the election or de-legitimatize the election. Those are your choices, folks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Do you agree with that? Do you think that that might be hyperbolic? Certainly, he feels it genuinely. But do you think that's overstating or do you share the same worry?

SCHWARTZ: I unequivocally share the same worry. What I would say is we are already in a civil war. We have been in one for quite some time. That's the nature of the polarization. And there is no question that we have two very, very divided sides who feel very, very strongly.

And so I think the only real question is, if Trump loses based on the voting, and if he disputes it and if he rallies the supporters behind it, will that civil war turn even more violent than it has been already?

And I do see, as others have said, I do see the period between Election Day and inauguration of the next president as being an especially dangerous period. Because I do think that the -- that Trump's base includes as significant number of domestic terrorists, people who are capable of doing very irrational things in the face of feeling thwarted.

KEILAR: Tony, thank you for your perspective, Tony Schwartz.

SCHWARTZ: Thank you.

KEILAR: As the nation is on the verge of 7 million coronavirus cases, there is a disturbing new study that shows how many Americans are not wearing masks.

Plus, Breonna Taylor's family speaks out after no one was charged directly in her death and her family's attorney claims a cover-up.

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[13:25:00]

KEILAR: At some point today, the United States will reach 7 million cases of coronavirus, and that means that roughly one out of every five infections in the world is happening here. Right now, nearly half of the country, that's 23 states, are experiencing an increase in new cases this week compared to last and a new projection says another 160,000 plus people will die from COVID by the end of 2020, which is coming from a model that the White House uses.

Now, remember, these forecasts from the Institute of Health Metrics and Evaluation have proven to be too cautious with lower numbers projected than what actually ends up happening on the ground. Analysis from that same model finding that if masks were universal in the U.S., 96,000 lives could be saved in this country. But it's researchers say that only 48 percent of the country is using them, which is 12 states showing mask-wearing rates above 50 percent.

Among them is California, which just became the first to surpass 800,000 infections. We're also learning that Virginia Governor Ralph Northam and his wife have both tested positive for the virus. Northam is at least the third governor to become infected.

The nation's top infectious disease expert expressing frustration about the country's average of 43,000 new cases a day. It's much higher than the baseline of 10,000 a day that Dr. Anthony Fauci hopes the U.S. can drop to in these few crucial weeks ahead of the flu season.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Given the fact that we have never got down to a good baseline, we are still in the first wave.

Rather than say a second wave, why don't we say, are we prepared for the challenge of the fall and the winter?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Now, Fauci explaining that second wave reference dates back to the last major pandemic in 1918, which saw its highest death rate during its second wave after a period when the virus seemed to have, quote, disappeared. Medical historians say, the peak of death was right before Halloween.

Let's turn now to Dr. Roshini Raj, an Associate Professor of Medicine at NYU Langone Health and Contributing Medical Editor at Health Magazine.

So, Doctor, here we are. I wonder, as you hear Dr. Fauci, it seems like he doesn't want to focus on is it the first or is it the second wave, that it is more the first wave but instead he is saying, let's focus on being in this place where we're accepting the challenge of going into the fall. What do you think?

DR. ROSHINI RAJ, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE, NYU LANGONE HEALTH: Yes. I think the reason he is making that is distinction is when you say the phrase, the second wave, you're sort of implying that we beat the first wave, that we're at an acceptable rate right now, but let's focus on the future. The truth is we are not in an acceptable rate right now. And that's why he says, we are still in the first wave, around 40,000 cases, that's still much too high to say we are comfortable or at a good level.

And as he said, now with winter coming, people being indoors more and compounding that with flu cases that could potentially overwhelm hospitals, it is going to be an extremely challenging situation coming up.

And I think he wants to stress the fact that we cannot let the guard down and we are still at a very grave situation today. It's not a question of we are okay today, let's worry about the second wave, we need to deal today right now with the COVID situations as it is on the ground.

KEILAR: There are two new studies I want to ask you about. They're bringing us closer to understanding why some people have had a more serious case of coronavirus. In one study, researchers found there was genetic mutation that appeared to give people an inadequate immunity to fight off the virus. In another study, there is something called misguided antibodies that could be the problem.

Talk to us about these misguided antibodies and why we are seeing more severe COVID in men and that this may be the reason.

RAJ: Sure. So when your body responds to a viral infection, it does so in many ways. And one of those ways is to produce antibodies. So these are these proteins that fight off the virus. However, sometimes that immune response, those antibodies, can go a little bit haywire and attack your own body.

[13:30:02]

And in that case, you are not doing yourself any good. In fact, you can have an overwhelming reaction to that.