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"New York Times" Obtains President Trump's Tax Return Data; "New York Times": President Trump Paid Nothing In Federal Income Taxes In 2014. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired September 27, 2020 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:01]

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You remember, this was so well-litigated. It's important.

If you look at the filings I have -- I think I have 108 pages of filings for all these different companies that do very well, obviously, because the filings -- and nobody talks about that. You'll learn much more if you look at those filings and we have to file every single year, but you'll learn much more if you look at those filings. Those filings are very complete.

They are very big. They're very powerful. They're very act accurate. And those are the filings that you'll learn much more and when it's done. But when you're under audit, you just don't release them. And, again, they treat me -- they treat me -- they treat me --

REPORTER: Mr. President, (INAUDIBLE) several times --

TRUMP: I'm talking to him. You should be more respectful of this gentleman. You're very rude to him.

But I will tell you that I look forward to releasing that. I look forward to releasing many things. I'm going to release many things and people will be really shocked, but The New York Times has been doing fake story after fake story. I have never seen anything like it. And people understand it, and people -- that's why the media has such a low approval rating now because of what they've done. It's really a shame.

You, the one in the back?

REPORTER: Thanks. Mr. President, two questions.

TRUMP: Do you have any questions for these two gentlemen?

REPORTER: I was going to ask both you and Governor Christie and Mayor Giuliani. Your two guests are practicing Catholics. You've talked about possible bias against Judge Barrett's religion. Only two catholic bishops have come out to say the same thing you have. Is any effort being made by any of you to say get the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops --

TRUMP: I think that -- yes. REPORTER: -- these other leaders within the church?

TRUMP: We're in the process of doing that. I think it's horrible what they're doing. I mean, playing the religious card and it's -- frankly, you're talking about Catholics. It's a very major religion in our country. I don't know. Chris, do you have anything to say about it?

FMR. GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ): Yes. Just that it's obvious what they're doing. So, you know, she will be strong. She will be tough and she'll stand up for what she believes in.

TRUMP: And she went through just like I did four years ago in terms of litigation of different things. She went through it before, did very well. Rudy, what do you think?

RUDY GIULIANI, TRUMP'S PERSONAL ATTORNEY: The article in The New York Times reveals a very strong anti-Catholic bias, yet it says in the article that the Catholicism and the American ethos can't be -- contradict each other. I mean, what is the American ethos? It's their version of it. That's horrible thing to say.

And then it says that Catholics have difficulty separating public and private morality. I don't have difficulty separating public and private morality. So what I see is the beginning of a really strong anti-Catholic attack. And having lived through the John Kennedy election, that article today reminded me of the things that used to be written before John Kennedy. Could a Catholic be loyal to the United States? Come on.

REPORTER: Well, having said that --

GIULIANI: And exactly what (INAUDIBLE) when she made that awful remark to the judge.

REPORTER: Well, let me repeat my question again. Why are only two bishops within the church speaking out and will you make an effort to get the U.S. --

TRUMP: I think they'll come after -- this is day one. I mean, we've just started this. This is absolutely day one. And, I mean, they're going to be coming out very strong. The Catholic Church is very well united on this. They are so thrilled that Amy was chosen. They are so thrilled. Oh, they'll be -- again, it's been 24 hours, okay? So it's been a very short period of time, but they're going to come out very strong.

Yes, please, go ahead, over here.

CHRISTINA BOBB, OAN REPORTER: Christina Bobb from OAN. Thank you for the briefing. You spoke earlier about some of the subjects that Joe Biden has been refusing to answer questions on specifically Hunter Biden, his involvement with Russia, Ukraine, even China, and then the Obama --

TRUMP: And the press doesn't ask those questions. It's incredible. REPORTER: I'm wondering, the debate is coming up this week. Do you anticipate Joe Biden being held to task (ph) and will he be able answer those questions at the debate?

BOBB: I don't know. I mean, we're going to find out, because a lot of things are going to come up in the debate, that may be one. I mean, the son didn't have a job. He had some big difficulties and then all of a sudden he's making millions of dollars as soon as his father becomes vice president. No, I think that will come up. I don't think Joe can answer it, frankly. I think there's only one reason he made all of that money.

And then you have to say, what about Joe's involvement? And why did Joe not give the billion dollars over to Ukraine as an example until such time as they let go of a prosecutor that was investigating the company that his son was involved with? I mean, there is some bad questions. I don't think they have answers.

And if we had a media that was fair, even just reasonable, this would be the biggest story for years and years and years, then you'd really be entitled to real Pulitzer prizes, not the fake committee that gives you these fake awards.

[18:05:08]

So, I mean, it's a really fair question, but it's hard to believe when you see the kind of money that he has made from China, from Russia, where the wife of the mayor of Moscow gives him $3.5 million and nobody even has any question about it? Why did he get $3.5 million? I'll tell you what, because Joe Biden was in on it. Joe was in on it. There's no way that he wasn't.

And uses Joe Biden's plane, Air Force Two? Uses Joe -- and they go China and then he comes back and he never mentioned it to his father that he just got a $1.5 billion, and now, it's turning out that it's much more money than that, Rudy. It's turned to be much more money from China. They have -- remember, the Chinese Communist Party gave him a lot of money, and the press has no interest no in these stories. It's just -- it's very disheartening for the people of our country.

Please.

BOBB: Mr. President, if he tries to doge the questions or doesn't address them head-on, are you prepared with the facts and information to answer that --

TRUMP: Well, I have all of that information. It just came out. I mean, I didn't know about Moscow, $3.5 million from the mayor's wife. I didn't know about that. And he's a very influential, powerful man in Russia, as you know. And it wasn't me. i didn't have anything to do with Russia. That came out loud and clear.

What also came out is they should have never gotten into this fake Mueller investigation and it also came out that the 31 phones that were wiped clean shouldn't have been wiped clean, and that's a criminal act. And Bloomberg, likewise, shouldn't be paying for prisoners to go in Florida and go and vote because he's basically paying, which is totally illegal, going and paying prisoners.

I hope he hasn't done it yet, but he's down it in writing. He is doing it. This is what he wants to do, so that he can ingratiate himself to the Democrats after they made him look like a total fool in the debate. I mean, what they did to him is incredible and that he goes out and spends money. It shows you the problems that he's got, Mini Mike.

But for him to go out and buy votes, because that's -- I don't know. You're a very good lawyer. Are you allowed to go tell people that go vote, I'm going to pay off your --

GIULIANI: You can't buy votes. That's for sure.

TRUMP: Yes, because that's what it is. I mean, It's a very serious, very serious charge.

Yes, please go ahead.

REPORTER: Mr. President, if he --

TRUMP: No, I was talking to you.

REPORTER: Thank you Mr. President. You know that there's --

TRUMP: Can you (INAUDIBLE)? Good, thank you.

REPORTER: And there has been going on the military action in Karabakh, Azerbaijan --

TRUMP: In where?

REPORTER: Azerbaijan.

TRUMP: Yes.

REPORTER: The Karabakh and the Syrians are killed. And according to the officials from the Azerbaijan, they say the first shoot came from the Armenian. What's your comment on that?

TRUMP: So we're looking at it very strongly, just happened, and I know about it. I learned about it today and yesterday. And we're looking at it very strongly. We have a lot of good relationships in that area. We'll see if we can stop it, okay?

Thank you very much.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: And you heard more questions shouted at the president there as he leaves his press conference on the heels of breaking news that is just coming in to us from The New York Times this evening.

It is reporting that it has obtained tax return data going back over two decades for President Trump personally and his business organization, and this includes detailed information from his first two years in office. We heard the president there responding, calling it totally fake news. Those were his words.

A lawyer for the Trump organization also apparently telling The Times that, quote, most, if not, all of the facts appear to be inaccurate.

And here are some of the stunning details in this report. It reports that in 2016, the year this president won the White House, President Trump paid just $750 in income tax, and the news that he paid no income taxes at all in ten of the previous 15 years.

I want to bring in our White House Correspondent, John Harwood, who's had a chance to look more and more through this report. This is extensive, John. What more can you tell us about what it reveals?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, Ana, in our segment before we took the president, Brian Stelter called it, he said the president is going to turn off the fog machine. That's exactly what you heard from the president once he was asked about The New York Times report, calling it fake news, saying The New York Times is out to get him because he was a conservative Republican, all sorts of material about Hunter Biden and trying to change the subject.

But this report is a devastating picture of a president who is bleeding financially and depending on the presidency to prop him up financially. That is his properties, properties where people can come and seek access to him by spending their money there.

[18:02]

The U.S. government spends money at Trump properties when he goes to play golf or when they send Secret Service agents to stay at his hotels. It said he didn't pay taxes in ten of the last 15 years, paid $750 in federal taxes in 2016 as a candidate, 2017, that he has personal loans coming due of $300 billion that he is personally guaranteed in the next several years, indicating the financial distress that he is suffering.

The one thing it does is affirm the president's statement, which he alluded to in a news conference that he has, in fact, been under audit. And what the subject of the audit is, as The Times report details, is a $72 million tax refund that the president claimed ten years ago. And the question is, was that a valid tax refund?

And he's going back and forth with the IRS. We don't know what the outcome of that case is going to be. But it does lend credence to that statement by the president that he had been under audit.

CABRERA: John, please stand by. I want to go to Jeremy Diamond, who was inside the room during this press conference. And, Jeremy, it was really interesting that as soon as this president started getting questions about the tax returns, he started to pivot to more friendly questioners.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Ana. There's no question, the president essentially was eager to say fake news as it relates to this New York Times report but he wasn't willing to take any questions about this other than a handful at the beginning. And this president is refusing to essentially address a fundamental question of transparency as it relates to his finances.

We know, of course, that these were questions that were litigated during the 2016 presidential election as well. The president then, as he did now, claiming that this audit is preventing him from being able to release his tax returns. Of course, that's not true at all. The president could decide if he wanted to release his tax returns. And especially the burden is now even higher on him because of this information in The New York Times.

And while the president is dismissing this as simply a fake and made- up story, it is hard to see how that's possible when you read the detail of this story, detailing how in ten out of the previous 15 years before the 2016 presidential election, that President Trump paid zero dollars,

zero dollars, in federal income tax.

I tried to ask the president about that as he was leaving the room, but he was in no mood to answer those questions, even as he is continuing to lobby these baseless allegations completely evidence- free, completely unsubstantiated about former Vice President Joe Biden being on some kind of performance-enhancing drugs, the president at one point claims many other people are saying that. I asked him who else is saying that. And the president said many people. Look on the internet.

I'm sure you could find people on the internet to say anything but that doesn't means that there's validity to those claims. And, again, the president refusing to provide any transparency or to address these questions of accountability as it relates to his finances and the amount of income taxes and financial losses that the president has suffered over years.

CABRERA: Jeremy, please stand by. I want to add to the conversation David Cay Johnston. He is author of "The Making of Donald Trump." He has done extensive work on reporting on the president's finances in years' past.

And, David, as we are still combing through this report, I just want to reiterate some of the top lines that Trump has paid no federal income taxes in at least 10 of the past 15 years, according to The New York Times, that he paid only $750 in 2016, as well as $750 total in 2017. And when it comes to funding the government, of course, he's apparently chipping in much less than what millions of Americans pay.

Given you've done extensive reporting on this finances, what do you make of this?

DAVID CAY JOHNSTON, AUTHOR, "THE MAKING OF DONALD TRUMP": Well, this is a stunningly detailed report that goes into essentially everything that you would know from the tax returns that isn't what you'd know about his business. For example, nothing in here about Russia and whether the money he's gotten we know he's gotten from Russia, because that would be business records, not tax records.

But the think about this, in just the years, 2008 and 2009, Trump took $1.4 billion of losses, $1.4 billion in those two years. Now, from the years just before that, 2005, the year to which I got his tax return mailed to me at my home, and I believe by Donald himself, 2006 and 2008, he paid $70 million or something called alternative minimum tax.

As a real estate developer, that's a tax he gets back. Essentially, it makes you loan with the money to the government at zero interest and then you take it back. So he paid $70 million of that and more than half was from the year 2005 and it's not really a tax bill.

[18:15:00]

It's a temporary tax bill.

I think this screams to us the reasons that we need to have a law requiring presidential and vice presidential candidates and members of Congress to disclose their income taxes. We understand their finances, and I agree with, I think it was John Harwood pointing out that this suggests Donald Trump needs the presidency right now because the bills he is coming to including more than $300 million of loans he personally guaranteed, the very issue that caused him to have a financial collapse in 1990 when I was covering him, only then he had $3 billion in personally guaranteed loans he could not pay back.

CABRERA: So, obviously, there is so much context to this picture of the president's finances that he's been trying to hide. He has not put forward his tax returns, even though as a candidate's in 2016m, at one point, he promised he would and now he continues to make this excuse about the audit preventing him, even though there's nothing that prevents him legally from putting forth his tax returns. Again, he called it totally fake news.

Brian Stelter is with us. And that is his go-to line, Brian, when he sees news reports he doesn't like, that he thinks reflect negatively on him. And what I thought was really interesting is after calling it fake news, he went on and bash against The New York Times, The Washington Post, other credible news outlets. And then he started to praise Fox News and a bunch of the people who hold shows at Fox News. Clearly, he thinks they're going to come to his rescue.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Fake news is his big lie. He says it over and over again but it doesn't work. I worked at The New York Times many times ago. A story of this magnitude does not get published without weeks and months of reporting, editing, and here is an important part, legal scrutiny. Lawyers are involved in a story like this, as well as many, many reporters and editors. So this story is airtight and we should assume that unless anyone legitimate says otherwise.

Look, I think, Ana, what happened is, remember the game show, Who Wants to be a Millionaire? Trump was using his life lines just now. He was trying to phone a friend, call on right-wing personalities in the briefing room to change the subject. But it only works very temporarily because most people see right through those tactics. He lied about The New York Times. He lied about Joe Biden. He lied about Hunter Biden. And he lied about his own financial status.

Look, Ana, let me put it this way, I liked the president's tie just now, but this is an Emperor Has No Clothes moment, the Emperor Has No Clothes moment. That's what this is. Nothing has stuck to Trump in three years, three-plus years. But this is about fundamental unfairness. How much did you pay in income taxes this year? How much did I pay?

Almost everybody watching this program paid more than President Trump paid in his first two years in office, and that is going to stick. It's goings to be on the morning shows. It's going to be on every other newspaper. That is going to stick like almost no other story in the past few years.

And one more point is important here. The New York Times says they're working on other stories. They say they have more to come. So this is the kind of thing that is going to continue through the final end of the campaign.

CABRERA: But do you think the president's supporters and voters who turn into Fox News or go to one America news network that the president likes to also, you know, pal around with, do you think they're going to even hear about this story? Will they get details that we're reporting, that The New York Times has uncovered?

STELTER: That's fair, yes. Fox tends to cover these stories very gently. They put on multiple pairs of kids' gloves when they're covering a story this hot. But these kinds of headlines will be almost impossible to miss. The New York Times all caps banner headline right now says, Trump's taxes show chronic losses and years of tax avoidance that he paid less than most of his voters. And I think that is going to be something that's very hard to distract from.

I agree with you, Ana, they will find ways to distract from it or make excuses for it. The president will just try to talk his way through this problem. But it is a big problem that's not going away in a day or two. This is the rare Trump story that will actually stick around a while.

CABRERA: Brian, stand by. Everybody else, please, stand by, and thank you for your comments. I need to squeeze in a quick break.

Again, we're continuing to follow this breaking news just dropping in The New York Times reporting on the president's tax returns revealing, according to The New York Times, that he is paid very, very little money to the federal government or state taxes. Just $750 in 20016 as well as 2017, according to The Times, and nothing in 10 of the previous 15 years.

Much more straight ahead in the CNN NEWSROOM. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:20:00]

CABRERA: We continue to follow breaking news reporting from The New York Times which says it obtained extensive data from the president's tax returns over the past couple decades, including many details from the years 2016 and 2017, the year he was elected to office, in which it says he paid just $750 in income taxes, as well as the year he took office and, again, paid just $750 in income taxes, according to The New York Times.

The president, of course, could solve all this by releasing his tax returns, making them public. He called this reporting fake news. But here is all the times that he has explained why he can't show his tax returns.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Tax returns are very complicated. I have many, many companies. I have, you know, tremendously -- you know, I have a very complex system of taxes. And, frankly, I get audited every single year. So, mine, unlike everybody else who never gets audited, I get audited every single year, which I think is unfair.

I will release mike tax returns against my lawyers' wishes when she releases her 33,000 emails that have been deleted.

HILLARY CLINTON (D), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The only years that anybody has ever seen were a couple of years when he had to turn them over to state authorities when he was trying to get a casino license and they showed he didn't pay any federal income tax. So --

TRUMP: That makes me smart.

We're under audit, despite what people said, and we're working that out, as I'm always under audit, it seems.

[18:25:07]

But I've been under audit for many years, because the numbers are big, and I guess when you have a name you -- you're audited, but until such time, as I'm not under audit, I would not be inclined to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Joining us now, CNN Senior Political Analyst, John Avlon and CNN Political Commentator and the Host of Firing Line on PBS, Margaret Hoover.

Guys, we showed a few clips there from the debates back in 2016, and it made me think of, wow, this next or first presidential debate of this election cycle is just a couple days away. Is he going to have to have a better answer come Tuesday night than this is just fake news or my tax returns are still under audit, you can't see them?

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. Well, I think most obviously, yes, the answer is, yes. He's going to have to take questions from Joe Biden and from a rigorous questioner, Chris Wallace. Yes, and it's not going to be enough. Fake news is not going to be enough.

Also, the story just hit tonight and multiple stories will be following. So, this is a developing story and I think we're going to be learning a lot more. JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Look, he's going to stonewall and call it fake news, but as usual it's Trump versus the facts. And here is why this is so damning. For this guy who's been campaigning as a populist billionaire, to be revealed as a fundamental fraud when it comes to his businesses, but more importantly that he in the -- living in the White House and he ran for president, paid $750 in federal taxes, that's less than hard working middle class families, working class families across this country, that he paid more to the Philippines and Panama for business ventures than he did to pay for operations of the U.S. government. That is just fundamentally unfair.

You want to talk about a rigged system? It's how folks who lived in gilded towers on Fifth Avenue pay nothing while working families scrape to pay their taxes and their mortgage just to get by.

CABRERA: Margaret, do you think this will have an impact on the election? Will Trump voters specifically care about this?

HOOVER: You know what, Ana, I'm not the person to -- I don't know. I truly don't know. I mean, I can't tell you right now a story that dropped in The New York Times an hour ago, whether it's going to have deep resonance, but I can tell you it should.

Here is why it should. This story suggests that the president of the United States is in deep financial distress. If the president of the United States is personally in deep financial distress, the American people need to know, because that puts him, the president of the United States, in a position of needing to make money from businesses that could potentially put him in direct -- be a direct conflict of interest with his role as the president of the United States. And the people of the United States need to know that before they elect him again.

And, by the way, we should know that based on how he has proceeded in the presidency looking back three and a half years. If there is a direct conflict of interest, we need to know if he's making decisions based on his own personal financial pocketbook or the interests of the American people.

AVLON: And, I will say, look, we know that the Trump organization is making money off politics and the federal government. We know that. I mean, this guy is a walking, talking conflict of interests, but we didn't know how bad it was. We didn't know that some businesses could be asking whether they're going to foreclose on the president of the United States if he is re-elected.

I mean, this is just such a long con that's in desperate situation of all collapsing on him and speaks I think to his desperation to hold on to power because he's convinced a lot of folks that he's a successful businessman and, in fact, has been booking losses at an unbelievable rate. What's so rigged about the system is it means he doesn't have to pay taxes. In some cases, he may be getting refunds that are bigger than most folks will ever see in their entire lives. It's insane.

CABRERA: And so let me ask you, John, and kind of bouncing it back this similar question I asked Margaret, which is, how does this impact the election, because as you point out, this president has really projected himself as the best businessman? That is why a lot of people I talk to, I recall, in 2016, specifically, were voting for him, they saw him as aspirational. If he knows business, if he, you know, is able to be successful in his life, then he could help me be more successful in my life or he knows all about how to get this economy back on track.

Can that message still resonate with these voters if they learn of this reporting, assuming that is true, in The New York Times?

HOOVER: Look, I mean, it depends how well he is able to spin it and to run with the communications in a narrative. He's been very successful doing that so far. I mean, what he said, and what you saw in that moment with Hillary Clinton in the 2016 debate was, I'm the smart guy. I'm the one who got -- was able to sort of cheat the system and get around.

[18:30:01]

And the fact that you pay more taxes less is because you're too dumb and you got duped, right?

AVLON: Yes.

HOOVER: And by the way, a lot of his supporters kind of like that. Right? I know -- I'm not saying the American people like to cheat the government. But there is a bravado and a -- that somehow he was able to parlay in his own favor. So you never -- look, it's very hard to project what his supporters are going to think about this and quite frankly how he is going to try to get on top of the narrative.

AVLON: The flipside to that, though, is something that a fellow New York real estate icon in the 1980s said. Only the little people pay taxes. And that's what this return shows. It shows a contempt for the guy who's running as the law and order candidate to have this much contempt for basic civic duty and requirements.

But then flipside would be some of his supporters have been duped. But they are so invested in this that their whole belief system is going to hang on -- and they're going to double down on believing the Donald contrary to all facts? Because that means they're not going to save any face.

And that's one of the difficult things about our election at this point. Some people are impervious to facts because supporting Donald Trump has become part of a belief system. That S a very dangerous situation in a democracy where we should be able to reason together before we cast a vote.

CABRERA: Guys, thank you both so much for your perspective on this. Important breaking news story.

Again, the "New York Times" reporting on the president's tax returns that he paid just $750 in income taxes in 2016 as well as 2017, and paid no income taxes for 10 of the last 15 years. We're continuing to sift through the details. We'll be right back with much more straight ahead in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:36:02]

CABRERA: Updating our breaking news tonight. A bombshell report in the "New York Times" is giving us a look at the tax returns of President Trump, and it paints a very different picture from what the president has been saying for years.

The article says in 2016 the president, of course, was -- at the time he won the White House that he paid just $750 in taxes. Even more damning, this report says in 10 out of the past 15 years he paid nothing. Zero.

Let's discuss this more with David Gergen and Douglas Brinkley.

First, David Gergen, your reaction to this reporting.

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Ana, I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the White House staff learned about this report a few hours ago and invented this press conference so that President Trump could throw out that charge and challenge Joe Biden to have a drug test, of all things, before the first debate this Tuesday night. They tried to create a fog bank here.

It is such a shameful disclosure, and frankly it does recall Joseph Goebbels news and Nazi propaganda minister. Goebbels said if you tell a lie big enough and tell it long enough eventually people will come to believe it. And that's what the president has done. Most people, a lot of people on his side believe that he's been a successful businessman. It turns out he's invented all of this. He has -- you know, it's unprecedented for a president to do this. It's unprincipled and frankly it's un-American.

CABRERA: I mean, if this is true, because we don't have our hands on the tax returns but we have no reason to believe that this isn't true. The "New York Times" has an extensive report, 46 pages when we tried to print it here, Doug. How abnormal is it for a sitting president to contribute so little in terms of taxes? I mean, 2016, $750. 2017, $750.

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: It is zero, zero, zero many years. He's basically just skirted the IRS. He's an outlaw that's in trouble. This is a big moment in U.S. history, and in the 2020 campaign. As David said that hastily arranged press conference was an utter embarrassment. I mean, turning to Chris Christie of Bridgegate fame and Rudy Giuliani who had his fingerprints all over the impeachment debacle as his lifeline as Brian Stelter said is -- just tells you this is a con man in the White House, and it reminds me of the famous moment when Richard Nixon had his say, you know, I'm not a crook.

Here we are Donald Trump saying, I'm not a fraud. I'm not a pauper. And I think our listeners on CNN need to realize that this isn't just a "New York Times" story. The amount of information in this massive investigative piece of his tax data, it's stunning in detail. And so do believe the "New York Times" and don't believe Donald Trump. This is going to be a big conversation point this Tuesday with, you know, the debate, and they'll have a back and forth about why he's paid no taxes for so many years.

CABRERA: OK. Gentlemen, please stand by. David Gergen and Douglas Brinkley, thank you.

I want to head back to the White House and our CNN White House correspondent John Harwood.

John, I know you've been reading more of this reporting. What more have you learned?

HARWOOD: A couple of things, Ana. And first, let me just talk for a moment about the politics of this as you were discussing with John and Margaret a few minutes ago. It is not likely that the small Republican donor, the small Republican taxpayer, the blue-collar voter, is going to read this report and say, the president's using me to make money, even though it conveys that impression. Those people are probably not going to change their minds.

But Donald Trump is running out of time in this campaign. There are just a few weeks left. He's significantly behind and every day he has to defend himself against a bombshell like this makes it more difficult for him to get those undecideds and swing voters, take voters away from Biden that he needs.

[18:40:08]

Secondly, there are a couple of interesting nuggets in this report that I think are worth pointing out. One is that that 2013 Miss Universe Pageant that he held in Moscow, that's where he set the tweet saying I wonder if Vladimir Putin is going to be my best friend?

It turned out that that was unusually profitable Miss Universe Pageant. We don't know exactly why that was but that's something that people are going to be curious to find more information about. He got a $2.3 million payday from holding the Miss Universe Pageant in Moscow.

Secondly, one of the things we learned from previous "New York Times" reporting was that Fred Trump, his father, contrived a whole bunch of unusual and probably illegal ways of passing money to his children in escaping gift taxes. There's a nugget in these reports indicating that the president paid $700,000 to his daughter Ivanka Trump and took it as a tax deduction for consulting fees.

Ivanka Trump reported the money on her own returns as consulting income. Now, the -- transactions were not connected. Just a precise same dollar amounts. So it's highly suggestive of the fact that the president gave $700,000 to his daughter Ivanka and claimed it as a tax deduction for consulting. That's something I think is going to get a lot more attention as well.

CABRERA: And, again, when you think about this president's pitch being all about the economy, about, you know, saving people money, about making people money. This is a stunning report, John. I'm reading another quote from here and I know you've reported, but I want to just be very specific. It says he is personally responsible for loans and other debts totaling $421 million with most of it coming due within four years. Should he win re-election, his lenders could be placed in the unprecedented position of weighing whether to foreclose on a sitting president. How --

HARWOOD: It's a stunning piece of detail, Ana, and again, this overall picture of a president who is not the fabulously successful, wealthy billionaire that he said when he was running for office. He's somebody who's hurting for money and is depending on his status as president to make money and keep himself afloat.

That's something that, you know, one of the things that somebody like Trump who is so aggressive in marketing himself and so grandiose in the things that he says and so extreme in the things that he says about other people is that their vulnerable to ridicule. And this report makes the president vulnerable to ridicule as somebody who's basically faked his financial success.

CABRERA: OK. John Harwood, at the White House. Thank you. Please stand by. We need to squeeze in one more quick break.

Thank you for watching us. You're watching CNN as we continue to learn more of this breaking news. The president's tax returns in the hands of the "New York Times" reporting out he's paid just $750 in taxes for the year he was elected as well as his first year in office and nothing for 10 of 15 years before that. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:47:20]

CABRERA: Let's get you caught up on the breaking news right now. A look at what the president doesn't want us to see. The "New York Times" says it has obtained tax return data for the president. And this report says the president in the 10 of the past 15 years paid nothing in federal income taxes, and in 2016, the year he won the White House, the president paid just $750 in federal income taxes.

Now the president denies this. This was him speaking earlier this evening.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: There's a "New York Times" story that came out about an hour ago that says that when you came to the White House you were paying about $750 a year in federal income tax. They are not releasing -- they're not publishing the tax returns. They're not showing that out there. They're saying to protect their sources. In your tax returns, sir, does that sound right? You're paying a couple hundred dollars a year in income taxes?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's fake news. It's totally fake news. Made-up, fake. We went through the same stories -- you could have asked me the same questions four years ago, I had to litigate this and talk about it. Totally fake news.

No. Actually, I paid tax, but -- and you'll see that as soon as my tax returns -- it's under audit. They've been under audit for a long time. The IRS does not treat me well. They treat me like the Tea Party. Like they treated the Tea Party.

They don't treat me well. They treat me very badly. You have people in the IRS -- they treat me very, very badly. But they're under audit. And when they're not, I would be proud to show it. But that's just fake news. The "New York Times" tried the same thing. They want to create a little bit of a story. A little bit -- they're doing anything they can. Not only that's the least of it. I mean, the stories that I read are so fake. They're so phony.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Did they tell you this was going to come out today?

TRUMP: No, I didn't know anything about it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President --

TRUMP: I think somebody said they were going to do a negative -- they always do -- they only do negative stories.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: I'm joined now by Trump biographer Michael D'Antonio, and David Gergen, former adviser to four presidents both Democrat and Republican, is back with us as well.

Michael, you know this president. I'm wondering what you think about this reporting?

MICHAEL D'ANTONIO, DONALD TRUMP BIOGRAPHER: Well, it's entirely consistent with everything that I've learned while plumbing Donald Trump's life before he was elected president. It's consistent with everything I've heard from contractors and even with these very strange, little episodes in which Donald Trump would fight like hell to get an extra $10,000 out of a deal, or he'd make every effort possible not to pick up the check at lunch. I mean, this guy's always been exceedingly cheap.

[18:50:04]

And I've always wondered, you know, if he was a billionaire, why was he so concerned with $1,000 here and $1,000 there. Well, it turned out that he was a terrible business person. The entities he participated in but did not manage made money. "The Times" reveals that in their accounts. But the enterprises that he managed and that he made the deals for, this great dealmaker, lost tens of millions of dollars. So, you know, this reveals him to be the fraud that most of us who were close to him always suspected he was.

CABRERA: David, Brian Stelter called it earlier, the "Emperor Has No Clothes" moment for Donald Trump. I wonder what would be more damning for him in terms of the eyes of the American people? Is that that he has paid so little apparently in income taxes or that he owes so much in debt when he's put himself out there as the greatest, you know, dealmaker there is, the best businessman that has walked this country's face of the earth?

GERGEN: Such a good question, Ana. I think what we're seeing here is one reason why Donald Trump is so obsessed with re-election as if his whole life depends on it because he knows if he's -- if he loses this election and this story becomes more unraveled, his reputation is going to go down in flames. He's going to be seen as a fraud and hiding these tax returns. It's a phony excuse that they're under audit. Everybody understands that. It's been going on for year after year.

Four years of being president, he's never released his returns. Tuesday night, he'll have to answer for that in the debate. But they'll also understand that he's been a fraud in his business life, to owe $300 million and $400 million coming due in the next four years or so, what is he going to spend his time on, the second term on? Manipulating the system, rigging the system, so he's got enough money to pay off his debts.

CABRERA: Michael, were you surprised that the president actually moved forward and held this press conference tonight even though this "New York Times" report had dropped?

D'ANTONIO: Well, if you saw it by the character of most of the questions, it appeared that he was selecting some reporters who were not really reporters to throw him some softballs. And he got a few questions where he threw out the fake news, Jeremiah, and talked about how the "New York Times" has been out to get him. But I think that Brian Stelter was right on point when he noted that a story like this does not get published in the "New York Times" without a tremendous amount of legal vetting.

I have far more confidence in "The Times" reporting than I do in the president's taxes. You know, so, I'm not surprised he went forward with the press conference because he thinks that he can manage any situation. But this is by far the worst thing that's been published about the president since the "Access Hollywood" tape was revealed back in 2016. This is devastating. It's -- you know, I think it suggests that the entire Trump empire is in great peril.

If he's fighting this hard over $73 million in assessed taxes that the authorities believe he owes, what's the truth about this billion- dollar fortune he's claimed for 30 or 40 years?

CABRERA: And he used the same excuse that he's used for the past several years, David, that his tax returns are still under audit that's why he can't share them with anybody, and yet you would think if he had the evidence that this was fake news, that he would have at this moment provided that evidence.

GERGEN: Absolutely. And he would have had his lawyers, you know, working on this before this press conference tonight. I think they called it a press conference in order to give him a chance to tell FOX News, go after the drug testing of Joe Biden, make that the number one story. Let's compete with what's out there. And so I don't take all of the arrows by myself. And I think this is part of the way he plays the game. Michael has, you know, told us that time and time again.

He's a phony from day one. But yet he's gotten away with it because he's clever. And that's not what we look for in a president of the United States. We look for someone who's wise, who's judicious, who is retrained, who respects the laws and respects the norms, and we're so completely into a different world with this -- Donald Trump. And I do think, Michael's point, I think he's deathly afraid of having to deal with all these debts.

CABRERA: Well, obviously much more to learn in the coming days and the coming hours, even. Thank you so much, David Gergen and Michael D'Antonio, for being with me. I appreciate it.

And that's going to do it for me tonight. I'm Ana Cabrera.

[18:55:01]

Thank you for being there for us. CNN's Anderson Cooper picks up our breaking news coverage after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening. We've intended to bring you a special two-hour debate preview tonight and we're going to focus a lot on the debate, but instead we begin with breaking news. And while alone this seemingly factor into the debate, it is huge in its own right.

Shortly before we came to air, a massive piece of investigate reporting hit "The New York Times" Web site. The subject is President Trump's taxes. More significantly how little he paid.