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David Priess, Former CIA Intelligence Agent & Author, Discusses Trump's "Irresponsible" Decision to Take Drive By at Walter Reed; New York Governor Orders Schools in Hot Spots in NYC to Close Tomorrow; President's Doctor Under Fire for Misleading Public on Trump's Condition; Dr. Fauci "Disturbed" and "Concerned" about Number of New Cases Ahead of Cold Months; Dr. Tom Nichols Discusses Case Surge in U.S. & Wisconsin Seeing Record-High Number of Cases; White House Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany, 2 Aides Test Positive. Aired 1:30-2p ET
Aired October 05, 2020 - 13:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:30:00]
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: The president's questionable decision to take a drive by and wave to his supporters at Walter Reed Medical Center as he battles the highly contagious COVID-19 is just the latest example of his ridiculous publicity stunts.
Dr. James Phillips, an attending physician at Walter Reed, tweeted this, quote, "Every single person in the vehicle during that completely unnecessary presidential drive by just now has to be quarantined for 14 days."
"They might get sick. They might die. For political theater, commanded by Trump to put their lives at risk for theater. This is insanity."
David Priess is a former CIA intelligence officer. He's also the author of the book, "How to Get Rid of a President."
David, thank you for joining us and sharing your insights with us.
You see what Dr. Phillips said. What did you think when you saw the president pulling this off?
DAVID PRIESS, CEO, LAWFARE INSTITUTE & FORMER CIA INTELLIGENCE OFFICER & AUTHOR: It raised two questions for me, Brianna. First, of course, the question about the president's judgment and is it being influenced by the course of the disease or by the treatments of the disease.
And that's something we're simply not going to find out. We're not getting even basic medical information from these supposed briefings. So I don't think we're going to get great insight into the president's own decision making.
It also raises questions about advisers around the president. At one extreme, if his advisers think he is unable to make good judgments and he is unable to execute the powers and duties of the office, they have to consider the 25th Amendment. But I think we're far from that at this point based on what we know.
But somewhere between that and doing nothing is trying to talk to the president and say, Mr. President, you shouldn't be doing this for these reasons.
Now, the last three-and-a-half years have taught us the president probably doesn't like that, would push back and do what he wanted to do anyway.
But it makes you wonder, if this was where they got to, if they pushed back on the president at all, what was he considering doing that they did push back on, and how bad would that have been.
KEILAR: So you're watching this, and it is raising this question: Is there no one around him who can convince him that this was a bad idea?
David, that was the case I think especially late in the term on a regular day at the White House. This is clearly not a regular day in the life of this presidency.
How much bigger an issue is it that he doesn't have people around him who can speak up, talk sense, and whose opinion he will consider?
PRIESS: It is clearly a much bigger issue now because there are direct life-and-death consequences.
Look, a month or two ago, if his advisers could not convince him to step down before he sent a tweet using a name to make fun of Joe Biden, that's bad. But that's something that the American people would decide in the election.
But now, if the president makes a galactically stupid choice, he puts lives at risk.
We still don't know when he had his last negative COVID test. Did he go to the debate knowing he had COVID or being convinced it was likely? Did he go to the event in New Jersey knowing that he had COVID or thinking it was likely?
These are no longer consequences that have implications only on Twitter. He is putting people's lives at risk by doing this.
And I have to say, I really feel for the families of the Secret Service agents who were forced to be in that car because they must be with the president if he decides to go out.
And all of the others that are going to at minimum quarantine and perhaps actually the virus and impact his decision making.
KEILAR: Yes, it's beyond.
David Priess, thank you so much.
Next, why did the president's doctors lie about his condition and treatment. [13:33:57]
Plus, breaking news out of New York. The state is now closing schools in several hot spots as cases are growing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:38:54]
KEILAR: This just into CNN. We are learning that New York Governor Andrew Cuomo is ordering schools in nine COVID hot-spot zip codes in New York City to shut doors tomorrow.
I want to go to CNN's Alexandra Field for the latest on this developing story.
He actually moved it up a day, Alexandra. Tell us about that.
ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Brianna. Look, the mayor proposed to shut the schools down across nine zip codes Wednesday to give families and schools come time to prepare to go to remote learning plans.
The governor is saying it needs to happen now, as soon as tomorrow.
This is affecting people in Brooklyn and Queens. These are hot spots that the city has been monitoring.
They say the infection rate or test positivity rate has been 3 percent or above for at least seven consecutive days, that triggered the decision to shut down schools.
This will affect some 300 schools, a mix of public and non-public schools.
Yes, this is again, Brianna, in response to the mayor's plan to shut down the schools but it does move the timeline up here.
KEILAR: Alexandra, thank you so much for that update. We'll keep an eye on New York as they're starting to experience some resurgence in some places.
[13:40:06]
There's still a lot of things the American public does not know right now about President Trump's medical condition. We know that he had a high fever Friday. We do not know how high.
We know his oxygen levels dropped at least twice over the past few days but we didn't learn for several days that the president was given supplemental oxygen at least once.
That's because his own doctor wouldn't disclose that. He said he wanted to paint an upbeat picture of the president's health.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) (CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Why did you wait until today to disclose the president was administered oxygen?
DR. SEAN CONLEY, PHYSICIAN TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: That's a good question.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Thank you.
CONLEY: So I was trying to reflect the upbeat attitude that the team, the president, and the course of illness has had. I didn't want to give any information that might steer the course of illness in another direction. And in doing so, it came off that we're trying to hide something, which wasn't necessarily true.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Joining me now is Dr. Chris Pernell, physician at New York University Hospital. She's participating in a vaccine trial. And she also lost her father to the coronavirus. She's very aware of the human cost of the pandemic.
Also with us is Art Caplan. He's the founding director of Division of Medical Ethics at New York University Langone Medical Center.
Art, the president's physician said he wanted to reflect the president's upbeat attitude or the presidential team's upbeat attitude. Is that ethical?
DR. ART CAPLAN, FOUNDING DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF MEDICAL ETHICS, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY LANGONE MEDICAL CENTER: No. You have to tell the truth. You're not there to spin. You're not there to try and honor a political or ideological wish.
Look, the president has every right to expect privacy. A president or any patient can control what a physician says about their case, including saying nothing.
But they can't ask you to lie, they can't ask you to spin. That is just unethical. And it breeds distrust of physicians, of health care, of what's being said about the president in this case.
KEILAR: And Dr. Pernell, something else he said that was curious, he didn't want to give information that might, quote, "steer the course of the illness in another direction."
It seems that when you talk about the steering the course of the illness, it would be best steered by facts and truth.
What is your reaction to that comment?
DR. CHRIS PERNELL, PHYSICIAN, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL: I found that to be disheartening. Once again, we saw a performance-based political theme. It seems to be, where the president is involved, science and data is under attack. It is very unfortunate that now we have a medical physician, who is
responsible for the president's care -- and I'm not questioning whether or not he is giving him appropriate care. But I am questioning the manner in which he is presenting the facts to the public.
And the thought that speaking truth could steer the condition in the wrong way sounds like someone doing some spin, that sounds like directing, that sounds like political theater.
And frankly, that's just disappointing and it's insulting. It is insulting to those of us that lost loved ones. It's insulting to those of us struggling with the disease. And it's insulting to those who are recently testing positive.
KEILAR: Art, I mean, there is -- he is the commander-in-chief, right? The doctor is in the military. Does that dynamic effect this situation?
CAPLAN: Psychologically, I'm sure it does. Look, your primary duty is -- as a physician, your primary duty is to tell the truth as a physician.
Even if you're taking orders from the commander-in-chief to do something else, you have to say I can't do that, I'm not doing that, I'm not willing to do that.
The dominant ethic of all of this is get accurate information about the patient out there, when the patient permits it.
Either the patient is going to say, I don't want you talking about this or you have to be transparent.
Look, Brianna, we never, in this country, wrestled with a reality that a president has the same rights as an individual patient to say, don't say anything. I think that's wrong. I don't think we should tolerate that.
We should have a different expectation about the president and the vice president, particularly in election season, that we get the whole truth, all of the facts, transparency, accurately. But that isn't part of our policy right now.
KEILAR: And Dr. Pernell, you lost your father to this terrible virus. We have you on quite a bit.
PERNELL: Yes.
KEILAR: We mention it every time. It is important. You are a doctor, but you also understand just how this can affect families.
PERNELL: Yes.
KEILAR: I wonder, when you are looking at what was the president's decision to leave Walter Reed unnecessarily, clearly, against any reasonable medical advice, and take a photo op joy ride to wave to supporters outside the hospital while his Secret Service are sealed inside a car with him and could be exposed, what did you think?
[13:45:09]
PERNELL: I'm going to tell you exactly what I thought. I thought it was like spitting on my father's grave. I felt it was like a punch in the gut to my sister who is still struggling to recover.
It was just disrespectful to the 210,000-plus brave patriotic Americans who lost their lives because of recklessness.
Recklessness coming out of the White House. And basically because we have a leader who has failed to lead and has asked us to perform political theater and instead of sticking to the facts and sticking to truth.
And it's just really unfortunate that there aren't those around the president who are impervious to the lies, who are able to say enough is enough.
And I think we can band together in our professions, being public health physicians, and being physicians more broadly, and exert pressure, pressure that the White House and pressure that the president himself would have to come full circle and learn how to empathize with the American people.
KEILAR: Dr. Pernell and Art Caplan, thank you so much. I appreciate your words today.
CAPLAN: Thank you.
PERNELL: Thank you.
KEILAR: It's not just the White House. Cases of COVID are on the rise overall in the U.S. with about 43,000 new infections per day. That is way north of where we need to be as we are heading into colder months, which disturbs Dr. Fauci. We'll have more on that when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:50:58]
KEILAR: The Trump administration's top infectious disease expert is alarmed where the United States is in the fight against the coronavirus.
Dr. Anthony Fauci says the numbers of new cases that the country is reporting is a serious new problem, especially as we head into colder months.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY & INFECTIOUS DISEASES: I'm disturbed and concerned about the fact that our baselines of infections is still stuck at around 40,000 per day.
That's no place to be when you're trying to get your arms around an epidemic and get it to a very low baseline as you get into a situation where you're going to be more indoors than outdoors.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: The big picture right now, you have 22 states that are reporting an increase in cases. And 23 are holding steady. Only five states are reporting fewer cases than last week.
And 23 states are reporting an increase in the numbers of COVID-19 deaths. There are 10 holding steady there. And 17 are reporting a decrease.
Wisconsin is one of the 22 states where new cases have been on the rise. This state is, reporting a record high of nearly 2,900 new cases on Saturday.
Governor Tony Evers is urging people to get back to the basics of fighting the virus. This includes, of course, wearing masks.
Over the weekend, several county health departments issued public health emergency COVID-19 alerts because of the, quote, "very high levels of cases which were and are resulting in increased hospitalizations."
My next guest is Dr. Tom Nichols. He is vice president of medical affairs for Ascension St. Elizabeth in Appleton, Wisconsin. And he's also the surge section chief for Ascension Wisconsin.
Which, as I understand it, sir, means you are overseeing 24 hospitals across the state. So you really have a good look at what's going on.
Can you tell us why you're seeing this surge?
DR. TOM NICHOLS, VICE PRESIDENT OF MEDICAL AFFAIRS, ASCENSION ST. ELIZABETH HOSPITAL & SURGE SECTION CHIEF, ASCENSION WISCONSIN: Thanks for having me on, Brianna.
I think we're seeing it because we're seeing exponential spread in the virus in our communities here in Wisconsin. As we have -- a month ago, we had 12 patients hospitalized in our communities. Today it's 130.
It's not just impacting our hospitals. It's also impacting our staff. As it spreads through the community, it's impacting the staff that need to come to work but can't because of exposures in the community.
KEILAR: Have you been able to pinpoint it? Is it schools reopening? Is it colleges? Is this people just getting tired of being kind of shut in more than they're used to for several months now?
Have you been able to get a hold on what the behaviors are behind this?
NICHOLS: Yes, I think people are getting tired of it. I'm getting tired of COVID.
But what we have seen is, as people start to drop their guard down, the infection takes hold. The virus doesn't seem to care whether we're tired of it or not. And
so we need to keep reinforcing those same basic behaviors of washing your hands, avoiding crowds, wearing a mask, and staying home when you're not feeling well.
KEILAR: Yes, it's incredibly opportunistic, right? That's what it does.
Tell us the adjustments that hospitals are having to make now.
NICHOLS: Well, I do feel fortunate to be part of Ascension, which is a national health --
KEILAR: Oh, no. We lost Dr. Tom Nichols. We'll try to reestablish that.
Thank you so much, Dr. Nichols, just in case we don't.
[13:54:25]
I do want to let out viewers know we're following breaking news that is coming to us out of the White House. And this has to do with the continuing spread of the coronavirus and the outbreak there.
[13:54:33]
Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany, the latest testing positive after spending time with journalists without wearing a mask yesterday. Why did she do that? She should not have done that. We'll have a live report, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
KEILAR: It is the top of the hour. I'm Brianna Keilar.
We're beginning with breaking news as the coronavirus outbreak at the White House just got worse. Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany and two of her aides revealed they have tested positive as well.
We should not that McEnany did not quarantine despite the infections around her to which she had known exposure. She did not wear a mask while briefing reporters just 24 hours ago.
This comes as the president of the United States remains at Walter Reed Hospital where he's being treated for the coronavirus. And we, as a nation, are no closer now to knowing the truth about his health.
[14:00:05]
What we do know is that his doctors and his closest aides can't seem to get their stories straight.
