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White House Press Staff Sparse Today; President May Have Been Contagious at Debate with Biden; Interview with Former Secret Service Agent. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired October 05, 2020 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And we as a nation are no closer now to knowing the truth about his health. What we do know is that his doctors and his closest aides can't seem to get their story straight. This morning, the chief of staff, Mark Meadows, who allegedly sparked the anger of his boss by telling reporters that the president's vital signs on Friday were concerning, offered this update:

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

MARK MEADOWS, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF (via telephone): Obviously he continued to improve overnight, and his health continues to improve. The doctors will actually have an evaluation sometime late morning, and then the president in consultation with the doctors will make a decision on whether to discharge him later today.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

KEILAR: I want to bring in Kaitlan Collin, who is covering the White House. And Kaitlan, we know that staff in the upper and lower press areas of the West Wing have been sent home to work remotely. This must be a very different scene than what you were used to seeing.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, because this is a White House that has been short-sighted in their approach to this by relying on these 15-minute rapid tests that they get instead of taking the measures that medical experts have said to take if you're around someone who has tested positive for coronavirus and you've had sustained contact with them.

So now you see there are empty offices basically in the upper and lower press areas right now because those staffers are sent home. Brianna, the White House won't tell us how many people are now quarantining after coming into contact with Kayleigh McEnany, given that she continued to show up despite being told she had had direct contact with Hope Hicks last week.

And she was at the White House on Friday, you saw her gaggling with reporters. She was at the White House again yesterday. She only spoke briefly with reporters, but during that brief period she did remove her mask to speak to reporters, which is not the point of wearing a mask, to take it off just because you're speaking. And so of course, the questions here is how many more people in the

West Wing are going to test positive? Because Kayleigh McEnany and her two deputies who have now also tested positive are just joining a growing list that started last week when we first found out that Hope Hicks was someone who had tested positive.

And so it is raising questions about the safety of people working in the West Wing and these precautions -- or lack thereof of precautions that they've taken. Because as we reported before this happened, people in the West Wing were not wearing masks to work any longer and they also were not social distancing either.

KEILAR: And let's talk about the president. Dana Bash is reporting that sources say the president is telling people on the phone that he needs to, quote, "get out of here," that he wants to be out of the hospital. Any word on what doctors want for him to do?

COLLINS: Well clearly, they did not think yesterday was a good day for the president to leave the hospital. We were told that yesterday he was angling to get out of there, and instead settled for that ride briefly outside to go see his supporters, which of course has raised other questions about whether or not he's putting those Secret Service agents at risk.

But what we do know is that today could be a day when the president does leave the hospital. He's been there for -- today's his fourth day being there, and the chief of staff signaled pretty strongly that that was an indication -- that was the way that they were leaning this morning ,but said an evaluation still needed to happen with the president's doctors.

But, Brianna, here it is, 2:00, and we have not gotten word on what the decision there at Walter Reed is going to be. They took reporters over there from the White House to Waler Reed earlier this morning, they've been sitting there for several hours, which we thought was going to be an update form the doctors, but we have not gotten an update in over 24 hours now from the medical team.

And instead, where they were briefing yesterday, there's a trash bag over the lectern so it doesn't appear that we're going to be getting one in the next few moments. But we'll continue to wait to see if the president is going to come back to the White House, and whether or not they decide that's the right decision.

Because the concern is that something could happen with the president's health and then he gets sent back to the hospital, and people are talking about the optics of that. So we'll just have to wait to see what exactly the determination is going to be. But right now, we do not know.

KEILAR: All right. Yes, we'll be waiting with you. Kaitlan, thank you so much for that report.

I want to bring in CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta to talk about this. And you know, Sanjay, first when asked about the results of X-rays and CT scans of the president's lungs, his physician, Dr. Conley, was quite vague. I wonder what stood out to you as you were watching his answers.

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, what stood out to me, I think, Brianna, is that this was clearly somebody who was told -- you know, here's what you can say and here's what you can't say.

I mean, I felt like he was in a really difficult spot, bending themselves into pretzels trying to initially say whether or not the president was on oxygen. You know, he's not on oxygen right now, he's not on oxygen this moment. It was just -- it was ridiculous.

And I felt a little bit for him, you know? But the point is, if you're going to come out to brief people about the patient's condition, you have to have the ability to be forthright about this. And you know, sins of omission are still sins.

So it's -- I think it's hard to get a clear picture still. The president is entitled to his privacy -- as I've heard you say and other guests say, that's absolutely true. But if you're going to send the doctors out to brief people, then I think at that point you have to say, look, you're allowed to be transparent and honest.

[14:05:10]

KEILAR: So he's received these different drugs and treatments. And that should tell us something, right? What does that tell us about what he's going through and what's ahead for him?

GUPTA: Well yes, I think it does tell us something. I mean, clearly, you know, if you look at the medications and the trajectory of when he received these medications, first he received this monoclonal antibody, that was the first medication he got, on Friday. And at the highest dose.

And that is not a medication that even has Emergency Use Authorization. It's typically given very early, and the sense is, OK, now we know we have this disease, we've been infected, can we give something to try and prevent symptoms from ever occurring.

We know that despite that, he still did develop symptoms, was essentially medevaced out of the hospital and then went on a medication that basically tries to slow down how quickly the virus can replicate -- that's the Remdesivir, and that's a five-day course, as you've mentioned. So that's like an antiviral; antibiotics are for bacterial infections, this is more like an antiviral for a viral infection.

It's that last one, Brianna, that I think has raised a lot of eyebrows because that's a steroid and it's an anti-inflammatory. So now you're basically saying there's a concern about so much inflammation now occurring in the body that we're going to give these steroid medications.

The issue is when you give steroid mediations, that also suppresses your immune system a bit. That may allow the virus to be able to replicate more easily. So you got the steroids, you got the antivirals. It does seem like it's a bit of a kitchen sink sort of mentality being thrown at him.

Now why, to your question? I mean, it's hard to know because with the president, maybe he's getting, you know, more aggressive care and you know it's the VIP sort of treatment -- it's not always the best treatment because it's VIP treatment, just a lot of people weighing in with their opinion, you've got to do this, you've got to do that. Or it could be -- and this is a serious consideration, that he's far sicker than I think we have realized or been told.

KEILAR: And there's some -- I mean, look, that's what we know at this point, Sanjay. There's a lot we just don't know, and it's being kept form us. So there's confusion right now about when the president was diagnosed -- this is based on when symptoms appeared.

I think a lot of people will look at, say, Boris Johnson as a more typical case. It was, he was diagnosed and it was I think about 10 days before he went into the hospital. And several days is more the expectation. So what do you think about what we're seeing with President Trump, what this means?

GUPTA: Yes, so if you say, look, he got diagnosed here and then immediately got symptomatic enough that you needed to go to the hospital.

I think it really means one of two things, that in fact he had been infected much longer and then had that sort of more typical sort of time period where the virus is replicating in the body and eventually gets to a dose that's -- to an amount that's high enough to start causing symptoms. And as you point out, you know, that's on average five days, it could be longer than that as was the case with Prime Minister Johnson. That seems the most likely scenario.

It is possible that you know, at some point, he had such a huge exposure to the virus -- right? -- just a huge exposure for some reason -- that he got infected and started developing symptoms much more closely together.

But one thing about this graph that you're looking at on the screen, Brianna -- I think it's really important -- is that last line, the bottom line, the purple line. Before someone becomes symptomatic, the few days before that are typically when they are contagious and in fact most contagious.

So if the president became symptomatic on Thursday night, you know, falling asleep on the plane ride, who knows if those were some of the first symptoms that they are describing, but that would then back up the calendar in terms of contagiousness to Wednesday, Tuesday, maybe even Monday.

KEILAR: And I want to ask you about something that's just in, Sanjay. The CDC has again updated its guidance to say that COVID is more likely to spread through the air. I think we sort of knew this, but here they are having updated it. What does that tell you?

GUPTA: Well you know, this is one of those things that last month -- you may remember, Brianna -- the CDC did put this on their website, that airborne transmission was a component of the way that this virus spread. Then they quickly took it down and it was this back and forth, kind of confusing as so many things have been over the last several months. Now, it's back up essentially.

And what this means is, as you pointed out, we've known this is a respiratory virus, it can spread through respiratory droplets. We've knows that, it can spread through people touching contaminated surfaces.

This is a little bit different. this airborne transmission is more this idea, as Erin Bromage put it, one of our analysts, think of it more like a campfire, smoke, right? Something gets sort of into the air, it gets suspended there, it lingers longer, it can drift further than six feet.

[14:10:00]

And what this is really about, this guidance, is about masks. And basically saying, even if you're further than six feet away, if you're indoors -- especially in a poorly ventilated space -- you need to be wearing a mask.

This of the virus being able to sort of travel through the air like smoke. If that visual helps you, that's what this guidance is really about. And that's now on the CDC's website. Respiratory droplets, contaminated surfaces, and airborne transmission.

KEILAR: Yes, that is very helpful. Sanjay, thank you.

GUPTA: You got it, Brianna. Thank you.

KEILAR: Still ahead, the White House Correspondents Association responds to Kayleigh McEnany's diagnosis.

Plus, Secret Service agents denouncing the president's COVID parade as one doctor at Walter Reed calls it "insanity." I'll be speaking to a former Secret Service agent, next.

And also this just in to CNN, the owner of Regal Cinemas says it's about to suspend operations of all of its movie theaters.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:15:16]

KEILAR: This just in to CNN, President Trump's physician will be updating his condition live next hour from Walter Reed Medical Center so we are going to be keeping an eye trained no that as the hour approaches.

In the meantime, another doctor who works there at Walter Reed says it's insanity, what you're watching right now, that the president was allowed to do a drive-by photo op this weekend to wave to his supporters.

Dr. James Phillips tweeted in part, "That presidential SUV is not only bulletproof but hermetically sealed against chemical attack. The risk of COVID-19 transmission inside is as high as it gets outside of medical procedures. The irresponsibility is astounding."

And so you can clearly see in these images that the Secret Service agent in the front seat is wearing full PPE. This includes a visor, a mask, a gown in an effort to protect himself. And one current Secret Service agent who works on the presidential detail told CNN, quote, "That should never have happened."

I want to bring in Charles Marino. He was a supervisory special agent with the Secret Service, Charles, as you watched this unfold, what did you think? What was your reaction?

CHARLES MARINO, FORMER SECRET SERVICE SUPERVISORY AGENT: Hey, Brianna, thanks for having me. You know, the president obviously sets the tone and has set the tone throughout this pandemic, and bears responsibility for the decision that he makes to move forward his agenda, even if it flies in the face of reasonable comprehensive medical and risk management suggestions here.

You know, what I would like to see, Brianna, is more of a strategic view by the president of how his decisions can impact not only his staff as we're seeing, the Republican Party, but also potentially the Secret Service. You know, this translates into business and government continuity. And the Secret Service does not have unlimited resources here. They're dealing with COVID just like any other workforce is currently.

So I would hope that the decisions would be made primarily based on those things that the president really deems that are essential that you and I would agree are also essential decisions, where he needs to move during this time -- and not for any other purpose.

KEILAR: Yes, they're a finite resource, you put them in a car with the president like that, now you have two agents who should be quarantining, right? So now they're out of the mix for 14 days. Other agents have to step up and cover for them.

There's a Secret Service agent, Charles, who told CNN, quote, "You can't say no." Is that true even if they're being -- even if they feel like they're being put at risk completely unnecessarily?

MARINO: Yes. That's a great question. You know, this is not the first time obviously -- right? -- that politics meets the Secret Service mission here.

Typically the Secret Service is going to offer its counsel when there's an overwhelming outside threat against the overall safety and security of the president. You know, in this situation with COVID-19, it's really going to be more medical consultation.

In terms of the people that I've spoken to yesterday, the way the situation evolved was that the medical staff consulted with the Secret Service who basically said, listen, we can get this done, there's no overwhelming outside threat in terms of why we can't take the president out in the car. And so they did what they were asked.

But you know, at any point in time here, you really are serving as counsel to the president. We saw this under President Bush as well, too, on September 11th, where the Secret Service decision was to not go back to the White House on the evening of September 11th. And President Bush overruled that decision and went back to the White House.

So this is not the first time. But here, especially during a pandemic, this is spreading like wildfire right now and it really -- it's going to directly impact our national security here based on the number of people that are going down with the symptoms and having to quarantine at any one time.

KEILAR: Yes, it's a very important point. Charles Marino, thank you for being with us.

MARINO: Thanks, Brianna.

KEILAR: Vice President Mike Pence is still planning to travel to Utah next hour despite several people that he was in contact with testing positive for coronavirus.

And we have new details about yet another person who was at that Supreme Court ceremony who is now infected.

[14:19:28]

This is CNN special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: The White House Correspondents' Association is now responding to the breaking news about White House Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany and two of her staffers testing positive for coronavirus. This is the statement that the association tweeted out.

"We wish Kayleigh, the president and everyone else struggling with the virus a swift recovery. As of this moment, we are not aware of additional cases among White House journalists, though we know some are awaiting test results. We strongly encourage our members to continue following CDC guidance on mask-wearing and distancing especially when at the White House, and urge journalists to seek testing if they were potentially exposed."

I want to bring in Olivia Nuzzi, she is the Washington correspondent for "New York Magazine." Olivia, it's great to see you. And it's worth noting, you have not actually been at the White House since the spread there started. What's your reaction to this statement from the association?

[14:25:00]

OLIVIA NUZZI, WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: I'm grateful I haven't been there since the spread started. First of all, it seems like it is becoming a coronavirus hotspot. I was dismayed by the statement. I'm a member of the White House

Correspondents' Association, I think it is the association's job to defend journalists. And Kayleigh McEnany and others at the White House who do not wear face coverings when they talk to reporters, they put each other at risk -- as we're seeing, with all of these positive test results -- and they also put reporters at risk.

It was yesterday that Kayleigh McEnany was talking to reporters without a mask on, and now we know that she's positive and perhaps has exposed reporters and others around her to this virus.

So I think it is the Correspondents' job to defend journalists when they're at risk, and I don't think that this statement was strong enough.

KEILAR: Why not have a stronger statement? You know, on the one hand, of course anyone with coronavirus, you wish them a speedy recovery. You can't ignore the fact that they put people at risk.

NUZZI: Look, I understand perhaps the impulse to want to be diplomatic, to want to wish her well. But we can wish her well and wish her a speedy recovery -- as well as everybody else infected at the White House -- while still noting that she put others directly at risk by exposing them to her at close range without a mask on. I think it's totally reckless of her and irresponsible, and I think that she needs to answer for herself.

KEILAR: And look, she must have known, Olivia, that -- I mean, she knew she was exposed but she must have known that even if she was testing negative one day, she could test positive the next day as the virus potentially in her system progresses. And yet she still briefed reporters yesterday without a mask.

Can you explain this mindset for you know, just folks out there who are trying to understand why the White House is not following common- sense guidance?

NUZZI: I can (ph). I mean, there seems to be this attitude that we are invincible at the White House. But as we now know, nobody is invincible from this virus. It can touch you even if you are the president of the United States.

Obviously he was ignoring his own guidelines from his own medical professionals in the government, but you know, no one is invincible from this and I don't really understand why anyone, seeing what this virus does to people that they love, to 200,000 Americans who have died, why they would behave recklessly and ignore guidance from the CDC, it makes no sense to me.

KEILAR: I also want to get your reaction to something the Trump campaign is now suggesting, which is that former Vice President Joe Biden is incapable of handling a pandemic response because unlike the president, he has not contracted coronavirus.

NUZZI: It is a remarkable -- KEILAR: Actually, wait, Olivia, hold on I want to -- let's play, this is like -- this is one of the campaign representatives, let's listen and then we're going to talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIN PERRINE, PRESS COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, TRUMP 2020 CAMPAIGN: Well firsthand experience is always going to change how someone relates to something that's been happening. The president has coronavirus right now, he is battling it head-on as toughly as only President Trump can. And listen, that -- of course that's going to change the way that he speaks of it because it'll be firsthand experience.

But you know, that experience, that experience of not only coronavirus but being president of the United States, that's why you just see a different tone overall from him.

And listen, he has experience as commander in chief, he has experience as a businessman, he has experience now fighting the coronavirus as an individual. those firsthand experiences, Joe Biden, he doesn't have those.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: She's saying that he has this experience as an individual who's had coronavirus, and Joe Biden doesn't have that experience as if it is a negative attribute, to have not been dumb about how to deal with this virus.

NUZZI: Yes. I mean, I guess Joe Biden's got to run out and get himself the coronavirus now to compete.

I don't know what to day to that, it is -- it's typical to hear pretty insane spin -- which is another word for lying -- from campaign officials, but -- and specifically from the Trump campaign. But this is really another level, to suggest that it is somehow a virtue that the president is infected with this disease and Joe Biden is not.

You know, I would point out that Joe Biden is on the campaign trail, Joe Biden is continuing to run for president and to focus on the election -- it seems -- while the president unfortunately is dealing with his illness. And it seems like if there is a candidate who is benefiting right now, it's probably Joe Biden.

KEILAR: And also, I want to -- you've done some great reporting where you've just confirmed yet another person at the Rose Garden event -- which seems to be the superspreader event -- has tested positive. And this is actually someone who was with the vice president at a separate event just before the Rose Garden ceremony. Tell us the details here.

NUZZI: So before the Amy Coney Barrett event in the Rose Garden, there was actually a prayer march on the National Mall, attended by thousands of people. I've been tracking this, trying to confirm whether or not anyone there had been infected because it occurred just a couple of hours prior to this event. [14:30:00]