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Tonight, Pence, Harris Face Off in Vice Presidential Debate; Former CIA and NSA Director Gen. Michael Hayden Endorses Biden; Trump Ends Stimulus Talks as Nation and White House Fight Outbreaks. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired October 07, 2020 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Around him as well as to the country.

[10:00:01]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: And Dr. Fauci says that the death toll could double this winter to 400,000, America, which, of course, is a very large multiple of the number of deaths during a typical flu season. John Harwood, thanks very much.

Let's go to Jason Carroll in Salt Lake City. Jason, there was a debate before tonight's debate about Plexiglass barriers. Pence's team making some sort of teenage comments about it at first but now it's up. So what led them to cave on this?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think it was Stephen Miller, right? I mean, I think that was sort of like the straw that broke the camel's back here. I mean, when you look at the fact that Katie Miller, which is Stephen Miller's wife, is the vice president's press secretary, and even though the vice president and his office raised objections to putting the Plexiglass up here in the debate hall. They had done that all the way up until very, very late last night and finally have decided they changed they have changed their minds.

And so the Plexiglass is up. And this plays right into the hands of what Senator Harris is going to be doing tonight in terms of trying to portray the vice president and the president as being sort of one in the same, locked in step in terms of the administration's failure on coronavirus.

Now, the vice president, for his part, will do what he can to try to portray Senator Harris as being too liberal, too progressive for the country. As for the debate itself, again, one debate over in terms of the Plexiglass, but in terms of the format of the debate, and what some of the other things it will look like, the candidates will be 12 feet, 3 inches apart from each other.

In addition to that, the debate will be 90 minutes with 10-minute segments. The moderator will be Susan Page from USA Today. And masks will be required by all attendees. There's also been a question about the tone of the debate tonight. What will that be like given what we saw at the presidential debate? Well, you do know that both of these candidates have a reputation of being very skilled debaters, being able to make their point without yelling or screaming or name-calling. And so one political observer told me that he expects tonight's debate to be an actual debate of the issues, something that we didn't see during the last presidential debate. Jim and Poppy?

POPPY HARLOW, CNN NEWSROOM: Civility. Civility and answer would be quite a sight. Jason, let's hope for it. Thanks for the reporting.

CARROLL: What a novel idea, yes.

HARLOW: Can you imagine?

Joining us now, our Chief Medical Correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, on a very serious note. Good morning, Sanjay. Good to have you.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.

HARLOW: So, Stephen Miller tests positive for coronavirus and the deputy press secretary saying last night to Erin Burnett, who has pressed him on when is the last time the president had a negative COVID test. He said he didn't know. This is not just a point of curiosity, right, major health implications on that?

GUPTA: Yes. And I should point out, it is a -- somebody knows. I mean, this isn't something that you have to sort of figure out. It is a known fact. It's probably the White House Medical Unit. They do know the answer to this question. So there is an answer here.

But it's really relevant, as you point, out for a few different reasons, but one is it will better help figure out who else may have been in contact the with president at a point when he was contagious. Knowing his last negative test if, in fact, he was getting tested daily or regularly would be really helpful.

But also now going forward trying to figure out what is the clinical course likely to be for the president? How long is he likely to be sick? How long is he likely to continue to be contagious? It's an important data point and, again, one that is known, I'm certain of it.

SCIUTTO: Just quickly on that point before we get to the death toll for the country, is the president likely to still be contagious based on what we know? If you or I had it this many days out, would we still be contagious?

GUPTA: Yes, I think so. I mean, so what we really have to go on is the symptoms that he has. And if you look at symptoms and you sort of -- large data sets, you say, okay, from the onset of symptoms, how long is someone contagious. First of all, we know a couple of days before they develop symptoms, they're usually the most contagious. So, if you develop symptoms on Thursday, that would mean Wednesday of last week, Tuesday of last week, he would have been perhaps the most contagious. But at least ten days or so after symptoms is when people are considered potentially contagious as well.

HARLOW: 400,000, Sanjay? Dr. Fauci now says 400,000 U.S. deaths from COVID are possible by this winter?

GUPTA: Well, you know, I mean, this is very much -- I mean, this is hard to hear. I realize it's very much in line with the same models that we've heard from University of Washington, the models that the White House uses.

[10:05:00]

And when you look and really start to peer into these models, you see that right now, sadly, we're averaging several hundred -- close to 700 to 1,000 deaths per day.

But what the models show is that over the next several weeks that the death toll will start to increase in many places. And if you start to do the math on that, that they say by December, it could be well into 2,000, maybe even more people dying every day.

And I hate saying this stuff. It's tough to believe and it didn't need to be this way, something we talk about all the time. But, yes, I mean, 410,000 was the projection for IHME, while at the same time, the projection jumps around but they say 100,000 of those lives could be saved if we had 95 percent mask-wearing. So it's hard to hear but it sort of tracks with everything else we've been hearing.

SCIUTTO: All right. So we have a vice presidential debate tonight. Candidates now 12 feet and a couple inches apart, plus those Plexiglass barriers. We assume more rigorous testing prior. Safe in your view under the circumstances?

GUPTA: Well, you know, Jim, no, it's not safe. I don't think we could say this is safe. It is trying to mitigate the potential problems here. But, look, the safest thing to do -- and this isn't anything anybody wants to hear, but the safest would be to do it virtually, right?

But then if you start to think overall how this virus moves around, the Plexiglass may help with respiratory droplets, the idea people are putting out respiratory droplets. But just over the past couple of days, the CDC put up guidance on their website again that we've known for a long time that this virus can also spread via aerosols. That means it can be spread -- be suspended in the air. It can last longer than a few minutes, maybe even a few hours, and it can travel further than six feet.

So we're not talking about an environment that is totally safe here. Virtual would be better, obviously safest. Outside, where you have significant air exchange, would probably be the next best. Having no audience because anybody -- even if they're wearing masks, could potentially be putting a little bit of virus into the air. The candidates, you know, should be wearing masks or at least when they're not talking be wearing masks.

I know none of this is going to happen but the idea of is this safe, we should be very clear that they're trying to make the best of a bad situation here. Even the testing, which you brought up, Jim, overseen by the Cleveland Clinic, what they retire is 72 hours -- within the last 72 hours -- a negative test result, okay? That is submitted by the campaigns themselves and it can be any sort of emergency use authorized test, whether it's the antigen test or the more gold standard PCR test. Any of those can be used.

The picture I'm painting is of people trying to do whatever they can but it's not safe and it has a lot of -- it's porous. There's lots of different things that could potentially be a problem here.

HARLOW: Sanjay, the president attacked the FDA on Twitter and actually tagged the commissioner in a tweet saying, their new guidance makes it, quote, more difficult to speed up vaccine approval by Election Day. That is a stunning statement. It makes clear his deadline. Can you explain what the guidelines say and why having months of data matter so much?

GUPTA: Yes, sure. We spent a lot of time, and I have talked to Dr. Hahn himself about this and other data scientists. It's basically this. If the side effects are going to occur with these vaccines, they typically occur within the first two months. Stephen Hahn has said this, the chief adviser to Operation Warped Speed has said this.

So that's where this two-month sort of timeframe came from. It's not going to catch all side effects but it should catch a significant number of side effects if they you are occur. So if you wait to months and make sure the safety data is there, that should be pretty good in terms of determining that this is a safe vaccine.

The president had already sort of hinted that he may not approve those guidelines. The FDA has said, we're going to go for it anyways. The manufacturer of the vaccines have sort of indicated that they would not submit for authorization until they had that sort of data. So I think that that's going to be really, really important.

And I think it's worth pointing out again that it should be celebrated that this vaccine, if it does get authorized, will be the fastest vaccine we have ever created as a human society. It's the moon shot. Like in July '69, if they said, you know what, you can't wait until July of '69 to send a man to the moon, you have got to do it in January, forget all the safety things, that's sort of what we're talking about here. You need to have that safety data, which is what the FDA is sticking to.

SCIUTTO: Yes, it's already fast. I mean, that's the point.

[10:10:00]

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you very much.

GUPTA: Yes, thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, the former director of the CIA and the NSA, 40 years of military and intelligence, served both Democratic and Republican administrations, he is now endorsing Joe Biden and offering a full- throated warning of what four more years of Trump would look like.

Up next, listen to my interview with General Michael Hayden.

HARLOW: And after the president abruptly halted stimulus negotiations last night, any new relief that would have allowed airlines to bring back thousands of furloughed workers, it is gone. We're going to talk about the real implications for them, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:15:00]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back.

Strong words and a stark warning from retired General Michael Hayden. He is the former director of the CIA and NSA, having served under both Republican and Democratic administrations.

This morning, he is throwing his support for president behind Joe Biden.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. MICHAEL HAYDEN (RET.), FORMER DIRECTOR, CIA AND NSA: I'm Mike Hayden. I was the former director of the CIA and the NSA.

If there was another term for President Trump, I don't know what happens to America. Truth is really important, but especially in intelligence. President Trump doesn't care about facts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: We're fortunate to be joined now by retired General Michael Hayden. General Hayden, thanks so much for joining us this morning.

HAYDEN: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: General, you served more than 40 years in military and intelligence. You served both Democratic and Republican presidents. Tell us why you have chosen to speak out now and why you believe President Donald Trump doesn't keep this country safe, as you say.

HAYDEN: Yes, indeed. You know, I watched it very closely, and now I'm afraid I don't think the president does think well at all. I'm very sad about that. But I think he can't do another term. It would be very, very bad for America.

SCIUTTO: You say in particular that Trump doesn't care about facts, he doesn't care about the truth. Why is that important?

HAYDEN: It's very important. You know, with intelligence, things are hard. And sometimes we're right and sometimes we're wrong, but we are doing things to do something about it. But Trump doesn't do that. He -- for example, talking to the Russians, he doesn't do the things that presidents should actually do. And so what I was saying in my second book before my throat (ph), I said, truth, what is truth with that man? And I think it's not truth at all.

SCIUTTO: Does his unwillingness to warn away Russia, whether it be on bounties on U.S. soldiers or interference in the election or the poisoning of the Russian opposition leader, does that, in your view, give Russia green light?

HAYDEN: It does, okay. Now, look, I know people involved in American intelligence. They're really good people and they're trying to do the right thing. But if the government -- if the president doesn't want to do that, it's very hard for them to do that.

And I have watched it now for three or four years, and I think the president won't want to do that at all. I'm really, really sad about that.

And, by the way, if he's elected a second time, I think what American intelligence and a lot more will be gone.

SCIUTTO: Will be gone. It's a remarkable assessment given your experience here. In particular, you mention the danger to key U.S. alliances. What happens to U.S. alliances, such as the NATO alliance, in a second Trump term?

HAYDEN: Yes, indeed. I think, you know, for 10, 20, 30, 40 years, I was with them and I would talk with our friends in Korea and in Europe and so on, okay? And I talk with them now. And people will say, what's going on? I thought this was America. But now I'm not sure. If it's a second term, I think we will be alone. We will not have any friends at all.

SCIUTTO: America alone. It's an alarming prospect.

HAYDEN: Yes, indeed.

And, you know, our friends are our friends. But now, I'm not sure at all. And, again, in a second term, I think it will be very, very bad.

SCIUTTO: Final question, you mention in your video that you disagree with many of Joe Biden's policies, but that, in your view, this is a question of character.

[10:20:03]

Tell us what you mean by that.

HAYDEN: Absolutely. You know, I like the vice president, okay, but some of the things I would say, oh, I don't think so and so on, and we will disagree with him, okay? And if he is president, I will say, I like this one but I don't like that one. But Mr. Trump, he's really -- I don't know what's going on with our people, you know? It's really sad for me to say that.

Policies will come and go. That's okay. But this is very, very different.

SCIUTTO: Well, General Hayden, thank you for your service to this country, and thank you today for your candor.

HAYDEN: Thank you again. Thank you a lot.

SCIUTTO: It's good to have you on.

HARLOW: So, so good to hear from him.

All right, still ahead, former Vice President Joe Biden calling for unity and pledging to lead the nation out of the pandemic, this as the president remains in denial about health and financial, those two fallouts from not following protocols with COVID, and also sowing confusion for millions of Americans over economic stimulus and aid. We'll discuss the two contrasting messages ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:25:00]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. 27 days to the election and the president's messaging to the American people can be described as chaotic, contradictory, sometimes outright misleading. Despite being infected with COVID-19 and growing outbreak inside the White House itself, the president says he will debate next week.

HARLOW: That's right. On Twitter also, the president announced overnight that he was just ending stimulus talks completely until after the election, only a few hours later to sort of like half kind of backtrack, saying, he would like to see smaller, separate deals for the airlines and businesses.

Let's bring in our Political Senior Analyst John Avlon and McClatchy White House Correspondent Francesca Chambers. Good morning to you guys.

I have tried to sort of game out John Avlon any political scenario under which this is beneficial for a president whose strongest asset has been maybe up until now his numbers on the economy. I don't get it. Why do this and leave millions of Americans hanging in the balance?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I think you may be looking a little too hard for strategy. A president who's always had impulse control issues, who's been erratic on a good day, now seems to be quite literally on steroids in those qualities. And this is something greeted with absolutely bafflement by his campaign aides and folks in the White House. I mean, this does look almost like a political death wish, this close to an election.

The negotiations have been going on for weeks between Nancy Pelosi and Steve Mnuchin. And the president derailed them with a tweet. And it doesn't serve his election. It doesn't serve the economy. More importantly, it doesn't serve the American people and small businesses, in particular, who desperately need that next round to go on. It makes no sense because it doesn't make sense.

SCIUTTO: Francesca Chambers, we saw a very different message from the vice president yesterday. The speech at Gettysburg, both a meaningful location but different appeal, in effect, to the American people about what his campaign is about. I want to play a clip of that and then get your comment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I'm running as a proud Democrat but I will govern as an American president. I will work with Democrats and Republicans. I will work as hard for those who don't support me as those who do. That's the job of a president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: It is not unlike Barack Obama's message in 2008, right? We're not red states or blue states, we are the United States of America. I wonder given the division today in this country, is that a message that appeals to a large number of voters, a successful political message, in your view?

FRANCESCA CHAMBERS, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, MCCLATCHY: Well, certainly looking at the polling that we have seen recently that shows Joe Biden ahead especially in these battleground states like Pennsylvania, which is becoming a must-win state in this election, that his message is resonating with the American people.

And you see the president now trying to come up with a new strategy and a new message after having contracted COVID. But now, he's just doubling done on what he had been saying about coronavirus and even amping it up, saying that Americans who contract it will beat it, despite the fact more than 210,000 people who have contracted it in America have died from coronavirus.

And his campaign is really taking cues from him, taking cues from the White House as they push a similar message now after suggesting over the weekend that they could have a different message. They're just following the same old playbook.

HARLOW: John Avlon, there were a number of Republicans who spoke out last night when the president just completely put the kibosh on stimulus talks.

[10:30:05]

Susan Collins slammed it, calling it the wrong decision.