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Half Of The United States Trending In Wrong Direction; Trump Wants To Resume Rallies, Says "I Don't Think I'm Contagious"; Trump's Doctor Offer Little Info On His Condition; De Blasio: NYC Can Stop "Full-Blown Second Wave"; Second Presidential Debate Will Be Held Virtually, Biden Says He Will Participate, Trump Says He Won't. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired October 08, 2020 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Tonight, the commission saying because the president was diagnosed with coronavirus deciding next Thursday's town hall would be conducted virtually, meaning Joe Biden and the president in separate locations.

Voters gathered with the moderator in Miami. The president objected to that saying he's fine. He wants to campaign. He wants to be out doing rallies, he could attend the debate. The president didn't like that. Joe Biden initially saying he would participate and saying perhaps the president would change his mind.

Now though the Biden campaign says, forget it. If the president won't participate next week, Joe Biden says he will have an event of his own and the campaign now urging the Debate Commission to reschedule the town hall for October 22nd. Again, the president saying this morning he won't show up next Thursday because he is not getting his way.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I heard that the Commission a little while ago changed the debate style and that's not acceptable to us. I'm not going to waste my time on a virtual debate. That's not what debating is all about, you sit behind a computer and do a debate, it is ridiculous, and then they cut you off whenever they want. They called up two minutes ago and it was announced and they're trying to protect Biden.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Trying to protect Biden from the President of the United States who best we know is still infected with the coronavirus. We're going to watch how this one plays out? We do know this; we count your votes in 26 days. And there is another count we do every day.

And today it is again more than troublesome. Half of the 50 states right now are trending in the wrong direction when it comes to the coronavirus. Only two states, Alabama and Hawaii, right now are reporting fewer new COVID infections this week compared to last week. Let's get straight to the White House now for these big developments

in the campaign. Our White House Correspondent Kaitlan Collins is standing by.

Kaitlan the president essentially a little bit of a tantrum this morning, insisting he is fine even though we have no proof of that, insisting he can do rallies again, and he could have shown up in Miami next Thursday and because of that, the president saying no to the Debate Commission's changes. Now the whole debate schedule is in Jeopardy.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it is. And the Biden Campaign wants it pushed back a week. But what was interesting is the campaign statement from the Trump Campaign today had the Campaign Manager saying the president would oppose to multiple negative tests before the debate that was initially scheduled for next Thursday, though there's no reason for why we believe that Bill Stepien would know that.

That is not something that we've heard from the president's doctor yet. And of course we know that it can take some time and if that was by next Thursday, that's only two weeks from when the president was diagnosed with coronavirus.

And of course we should note that statement came from a Campaign Manager who is also positive for coronavirus, as part of this outbreak that we've seen happening in the president's inner circle.

But John, I think there are two main reasons the president doesn't want to do this. One, he doesn't want to be able to be muted by the moderators, something that would be of course much easier if that was done virtually. And that is something the president referenced this morning in that interview.

But also, John, by doing this virtually, it would be impossible for any viewer to ignore the pandemic that's going on. And they tried to distract from it in the last debate. It's not something the Trump Campaign wants to talk about because they know how poorly their reviews and their handling of it have been.

But it would be front and center if Joe Biden and Donald Trump are appearing virtually and it would just remind people of the fact that the president did have coronavirus. So the question is whether or not the president changes his mind?

Of course, we have seen him do that within a manner of hours and matte of minutes before. This is an argument that some campaign aides may try to make to the president, because they want him to have a big audience.

They want him to have a second showing from that first debate, which they did not think went well. But whether or not they're successful in that, or whether they do agree to push it back is something that still remains to be seen.

Because we should remind viewers, that the commission on presidential debates did not consult either campaign before making this decision, it was basically an executive decision by the organizers. And then they informed them a few moments before they announced it. And clearly, obviously the president is not pleased with them.

KING: The president is not pleased; the president is also losing this race at the moment and losing badly a lot of republicans not happy, because he has now done something that puts one of his opportunities to try to change the dynamic right now fall off the table.

Kaitlan Collins grateful for the live reporting at the White House and to the point Kaitlan was just making, the president today says he feels great. Says, he is ready to get back on the campaign trail, but sadly we know the president lies constantly, lies constantly. And we know very little about the details of his coronavirus case or his treatment.

The White House doctor does release vague, upbeat statements most days, but that doctor hasn't answered questions since Monday, that's because the president prefers to do the talking.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I'd love to do a rally tonight. I wanted to do one last night, but I think I am better to a point that I feel better than I did, I jokingly said 20 years ago, I feel perfect. There's nothing wrong. I don't think I am contagious at all. First of all, if I'm at a matter rally, I stand by myself very far from everybody, so whether I was or not. But I still wouldn't go to a rally if I was contagious.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Let's bring in our Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Sanjay, you listened to the president. I hope he is not contagious, I hope he is doing better, but we have no way to know that because we don't get detailed information from the White House, especially the medical team.

[12:05:00]

KING: And I hate to say it but I am going to keep saying it, the president has a history of not telling the truth.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, we are dealing with a situation where a lot of incomplete information here, and some of it just a little bit ridiculous in terms of what the doctors have provided, especially with was he on oxygen in the beginning.

They really went out of their way to be evasive about certain things which does call into question many of the other things. I mean, there's so much that we still don't know about what's going on with his health?

It is interesting, because the president would be considered a vulnerable patient because of his age; he has some of these pre- existing conditions. But then what's been more important is that he had trouble with this disease, right.

The odds are very much in his favor in terms of recovery, but he did have some trouble. He needed oxygen, supplemental oxygen. That's a significant concern, shows that his lungs are having a hard time keeping up. He's obviously been on all these various medications. At one point or another, we don't know if he is still on the medications or not?

And we have an idea that there are a lot of things that we still aren't getting clear answers on. He says no fever for the last four days, but he is on steroids, and steroids can suppress a fever. So that would not be a very valuable sort of indicator there.

And again, this cocktail of medications together is something that maybe nobody else has received the way that he has that particular cocktail and one of the medications not even available under Emergency Use Authorization.

So it's a very cloudy sort of picture of what's going on with him. And by the way, it doesn't have to be. The doctors could be very forthright if they decided to brief the press, they could just tell us. But instead, they sort of want to say they briefed the press but not provide all of these details.

KING: Right. And to that point, we get these written statements from Dr. Conley. Dr. Conley last spoke to reporters and took questions, he only took a few back on Monday before the president was released from The Walter Reed Medical Center. The president has been at the White House Monday night, Tuesday night and Wednesday night now. We're having this conversation.

And here's one. This is from October 6th earlier in the week. This morning the president's team of physicians met with him in the residence. He had a restful night at home; today he reports no symptoms, right?

Vital signs, physical exam remain stable, ambulatory oxygen saturation levels continue to do extremely well. OK, doesn't tell you anything though. And so, that's one day, and then the next day we get pretty similar. This one says he is fever free for more than four days.

Bit what it doesn't say, Sanjay, and please help me as someone who's the expert here, it doesn't say he is fever free because he's taking medication, it doesn't say he is better because of the medication. It does not layout for us what the president still needs or if he is - if they believe he is almost completely recovered, he doesn't need any medication anymore, why isn't it laid out in these reports?

GUPTA: Right, and never absolutely. I mean, clearly, they want to paint a rosier picture. And yet there are all of these little clues that they leave behind. There are some basic unanswered questions, John. If they wanted to be completely forthright, and as you and I've talked about, there's no obligation for them to have to do this. But why we keep coming back to this first question, when was this last negative test? In part, it's for the contact tracing, so they can figure out who else may have been infected because of the president, but also in terms of his own clinical course, how likely is he to be contagious? If you look at the people who have this disease, they do have a period of time around day seven or so where it's a window of concern because of the body's inflammatory response.

Where is he? Is he at that day yet? Did he already pass it? Does he have pneumonia? It is a respiratory virus. We don't know the answer to that. We know he had lung scans and we know that they weren't normal to your point, they would have said they were normal otherwise, they weren't normal, so what did they show?

Again, are you trying to give us a picture of the president's health or are you trying to basically paint this very opaque thing that is just designed to give this rosy scenario? It sounds like he says he's doing well, which is great, as you point out. But is it because of the meds? Are the steroids sort of artificially creating masking the illness or is he really recovering from the disease? Seems like a significant question to answer.

KING: And so, I get it. Number one, he is losing in this race, and he wants to get out campaigning to improve his chances of a comeback. Number two, he enjoys traveling the country and be in the presence of his supporters.

And if you don't like the president, you can role your eyes at that. But that's something he likes. He is a politician; he likes to be out with the crowd. You completely understand that. But listen to him this morning Sanjay, again, he is playing his own doctor on television, trying to make the case it's OK, let me out of the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I don't have heart problems. I don't have diabetes and I don't have any of the problems that you read about. Perhaps a couple of pounds we could lose here or there, but you know, because a lot of people are in that category. But no, I'm in good health and, you know, look, what happens is if you really were around the thing, you can catch it. People call--

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[12:10:00]

KING: If you're reckless anywhere around this thing, you can catch it. There are a lot of people - COVID is everywhere in America. A lot of people haven't caught it, because they wear their mask and they keep their distance. The president's personal behavior and those around him have been reckless. But to that point - that's my political statement.

To the medical stuff you heard, I don't have heart problems, I don't have diabetes, anything in that jump out as you, the president again, because his own doctor won't answer questions, especially from professionals like yourself, the president is left to play doctor on TV. GUPTA: Yes. Well, first of all, we know he is a vulnerable patient.

And he himself realizes that this is as you get elderly, of your above age 70, you're going to be more vulnerable. And he falls into that age range. He does have a common form of heart disease as revealed by his own studies that he had on his heart.

But I think most importantly, he has already shown now through the course of this disease that this disease had some impact on his lungs. He required oxygen. The doctors threw some pretty aggressive medications at him.

Dexamethasone, a steroid in the context of COVID is typically used if someone has more serious disease, because they're worried about the inflammatory response becoming too robust and causing a problem.

So, there are all these indicators, that regardless of the fact that he is vulnerable, which he is, he is already now falls into different risk stratification. He's got to be careful. And John, I think to your point, he is probably still contagious. Again, we don't know where he is on the timeline of the disease, because we're still not getting that information.

But as a general rule, at least ten days or so after you first became symptomatic you would be thought that as contagious, you should be in isolation, all the things that we've been talking about for six or seven months now.

So, for all those reasons, his own health, the health of the people around him, he should be isolating right now. Preferably at the hospital, obviously he is not doing that. But at least isolate, so he is not going to potentially infect other people.

KING: And as a general rule in a democracy, we should all get more information about the condition of the president when he is in peril like this. Sanjay Gupta, I appreciate your insights doctor very much. Thank you for joining us. Up next for us, there is coronavirus in the White House, yes. And guess what? Across America right now, coronavirus on the rise.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:15:00]

KING: The coronavirus trend lines across the country right now are troubling and that might be an understatement. Let's take a look at the 50 state trends as you pop up the map here. 25 states, half of the United States right now reporting more new COVID-19 infections now compared to a week ago. That's the red and the orange on the map.

And you see it, a lot of it out here in the west, but a lot of it everywhere 25 states, half of the states now trending in the wrong direction and 23 states holding steady. It's better than trending up, but it's not trending down. Only two states, Alabama and Hawaii are reporting fewer infections right now than a week ago.

So, you see a lot of trouble spots, a lot of smaller population maybe, but the case count is growing. And if you look at the case timeline, this is what is troubling. The peak of the summer surge, we were up above 60,000 new infections a day, come down slowly, one month ago, 24,000 new infections. Had still a lot of infections, but there was some hope, perhaps pushing the baseline back down?

It was about 20,000 before the summer surge. The goal was to get it back down, and then push it down further. Something very different is happening. You see it now trending back up. Trickling up, it's not a straight line, but trickling back up and maybe if you want to call that a plateau, it's a pretty high plateau 50,000 new infections in the United States yesterday.

The average now between 40 and 50,000 new infections a day as we head into the colder season, which has public health experts worried. Among the things they worried about is that the death count will start going back up. 915 deaths reported yesterday in the United States of America. You see this trickle down some, now roughly in a plateau just below a thousand.

The question is if that case count keeps going up, will this as the projections suggest start to go up as well? One of the big issues here is you need to get the positivity rate down. The higher the positivity, it's quite obvious, the more cases. And again, look across the plains and out into the west, 24 percent positivity in Idaho, 20 in South Dakota, 20 in Wisconsin, 15 in Kansas, 15 in Nevada.

Double digit positivity means more cases today and it means the likelihood of more cases tomorrow because of infection in the community. Because of that, you do see some states starting to say wait a minute; we either need to add or delay when it comes to restrictions.

Wisconsin putting restrictions back in place. The Governor of Kentucky reinstating a mask mandate. In Massachusetts, the Boston public schools were planning to get back in school learning. That has been put on hold.

And in New York City, there are several zip codes in the city where the case count is going up; the positivity rate is going up. The mayor says we need new restrictions and I need you to cooperate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D-NY) NEW YORK CITY: We can overcome this challenge. The data and the science make very, very clear, we can stop this challenge from turning into a full blown second wave, and we must, we must.

Our businesses are coming back now, our schools are back. We need to protect this progress all over New York City. And the way to do that is to focus on the areas having a challenge, work with them, support them, work together and overcome it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Joining us now is Dr. Dara Kass; she is an Associate Professor of Emergency Medicine at Columbia University Medical Center. Doctor, it's great for you to join us I'm grateful for your time, thank you. Let's start in New York City where you are and then will pull this out for a national conversation.

But the Mayor says the positivity rate is going up in certain areas, the case count going up a little bit. New York obviously went through this early on had shoved the case count down pretty good. What is the source of the problem and how significant is it?

DR. DARA KASS, ASSOC. PROFESSOR OF EMERGENCY MEDICINE, COLUMBIA UNIV. MEDICAL CENTER: The problem is really significant for us in New York and it really is about behavior of New Yorkers around this virus. It's really coming from a cluster of places where people are not wearing masks, they're not socially distancing, and they're actually not getting tested.

[12:20:00]

DR. KASS: And what we're realizing is that, if you don't listen to the public health metrics, no matter how many times we try to advocate for new therapeutics and a vaccine, it's really going to undermine our ability to keep this virus at bay.

What's interesting is we know about the cluster because of the number of tests being done in New York. That doesn't prevent the spread. We are learning from the White House that testing does not prevent the spread; it just identifies cases when we see them, and it shows us what we need to do once those cases are identified.

KING: And I just went through the numbers in the national baseline now of new infections is above 43, approaching 45,000 today. 50,000 new infections reported just yesterday. Dr. Fauci who has for months been saying it is absolutely critical to shove that baseline down, now says because we haven't, this is the months ahead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: The models tell us that if we do not do the kinds of things that we're talking about in the cold of the fall and the winter, we can have from 300,000 to 400,000 deaths. That would be just so tragic if that happens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: It's hard to disagree, it's impossible to disagree with that. That would be incredibly tragic if it happens. But what has been interesting Dr. Kass through this is listening to the exasperated Dr. Fauci wishing and continuing to urge people to please listen, but not getting any backup from his boss, the President of the United States.

DR. KASS: I mean, we're seeing it everywhere, even last night on the debate stage when the Second Lady of the United States came on stage without a mask, right? Even though the venue required masks and was first to keep people out that didn't have the mask. The modeling of the behavior matters, even when it is inconvenient. KING: And so, if you look across the United States right now, you look

around the world right now, yes, we all were told this. We've been having this conversation for months that, when the winter comes, this is going to come back, because this is a virus that thrives in the colder temperatures.

If you look here, you'll hear the president say sometimes, well, the United States is doing great compared to the rest of the world. Well, where is your proof, it's not. That's Japan at the bottom, a flat line consistently. The European Union is in green.

The European Union and the United States which is the orange went up the hill, a bad hill about the same time together. But you see how the European Union came down quickly. Yes, it is trending back up right now. If you look at Spain, the Netherlands, the Czech Republic, Germany, other places in Europe, they have a problem at the moment.

But look at the U.S. case count, it has stayed above, this is the average of confirmed cases per one million residents, it had stayed up higher because it's pretty obvious from looking at the chart, we never shoved the curve down.

KASS: Right. It's very much about leadership and behavior. We have seen every other country in the world respond better to this virus than us. And now we're OK with the case count of 40 to 50,000 a day when we have the weather that's helping us, and the opportunity to be outside, but some businesses shutting down. Going into the winter, it's going to just get worse.

Dr. Fauci is right. And we just did not do a good enough job throughout the summer getting ourselves where we needed to be.

KING: I wish I could say something to refute the idea that is going to get worse. But all of the numbers, all the data, all the positivity suggest that sadly, you're correct because you're relying on science to do that Dr. Kass grateful for your time today, thank you so much.

And still ahead for us, as the doctor just noted, the candidates have vice president faced off last night, sharp exchanges over coronavirus over healthcare and the economy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:25:00]

KING: The future of the presidential debates now in doubt. This morning, President Trump said he will not take part in next week's scheduled town hall, the president saying that after the Debate Commission decided to make that event virtual. Just moments ago, Vice President Biden announcing instead he will take questions from voters at an event of his own next week, if the president won't participate in the debate.

Joining me now CNN Political Correspondent, Jay Lee and Lisa Lerer, National Political Reporter for the New York Times and Lisa, this is the year where nothing will go according to plan. The Trump Campaign has just issued another statement. Here is where we stand. And a sorry viewer if this is a little confusing. But there was supposed to be the second debate a week from today.

The Biden Campaign now says; let's just do a town hall on the 22nd, which was to be the third presidential debate. Let's just skip the second and do a town hall then. The Trump Campaign is coming back saying no, we still want two more debates, the 22nd, and then one on the 29th. The question here is, can they resolve this or we just going to have a process fight?

LISA LERER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, we may end up just having a process fight. I mean, there's a deep sense in the irony here because of - President Trump was saying that Joe Biden didn't want to debate, and the Democrat was the one who is too nervous to take the stage.

And then after he was diagnosed with coronavirus, after his pretty poorly reviewed performance in the first debate, it seems like the president has changed his opinion of debates. And part of what's happening here centers around the optics of the virus.

Joe Biden is very hesitant to get on a stage with Donald Trump considering that he still could be contagious and carrying the virus for ten days after his diagnosis, and we don't exactly know when he was initially, first had that positive test.

And the president of course is trying as hard as he can to downplay the severity of the virus. So what better way to downplay the severity of the coronavirus than getting on the debate stage and having a whole debate?

So this is of course about debates, but it's also about the major issue in this race, which is the coronavirus and how the administration has handled the spread of this pandemic?

KING: Right and now both campaigns and we are trying to game this out if you will.