Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
FBI: Militia Plotted to Kidnap Michigan Governor, Overthrow Government; Biden Campaign Rejects Trump Demand to Delay 2nd Debate; Trump Calls Harris "Unlikeable" and "Communist" in Sexist Attacks; White House Refuses to Say When Trump Last Tested Negative; AJC: White House Chief of Staff Hosted Lavish Wedding in Atlanta Despite Restrictions; 50+ Million American Watch V.P. Debate, Up Big from 2016. Aired 1:30-2p ET
Aired October 08, 2020 - 13:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:30:00]
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: That they talked about a highway bridge they could plant an explosive, that they discussed this plan to divert police with an explosion. And that they had already practiced carrying out that explosion.
That two times they did coordinated surveillance on the governor's vacation home.
Deputy Director, I want to ask you about something that Shimon pointed out, which was Matthew Schneider saying we can agree about politics, we should not resort to violence.
You can talk about what happened here. And there are a lot of questions we do not have answers to. We do not know the motives. We do not know everything about this group.
But this is something, just for context, that as we had seen demonstrations against some of the coronavirus restrictions that were under way in Michigan, you had the president tweeting in April, "Liberate Michigan."
He was tweeting support as well for protesters, some who were armed.
This is a situation in Michigan that has been tense and has not been tamped down by rhetoric coming out of the White House.
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That's absolutely right.
So a couple of things come to mind. First, the FBI analyzes these plots along two factors. When they hear about this sort of -- they pick up on this language, they're trying to determine if the group has the intent and capability to pull off what they're talking about.
Here, you absolutely see that in spades just from what little we know from the complaint and what was discussed at the press conference, clear intent.
And I would add the mention, the specific mentioning of doing this before the election gives you great insight into the fact that this group is looking for some sort of political impact.
And capability, purchasing the taser, putting money together, several meetings, conducting surveillance, the test detonations. It is a very serious thing.
As far as political discourse angle goes, I don't think you can possibly overstate this.
Let's think back for a minute. We know that in 2016 one of the Russians' primary objectives was to sow this sort of sentiment, discord, chaos, distrust in each other and in our Democratic process.
We also know from what the intelligence folks in our country have told us in the last few weeks that they're continuing that same campaign.
But let's not be mistaken here, Brianna. The person most responsible for fomenting this sort of unrest, this sort of division, this sort of violence in this country right now is the president of the United States.
The Russians simply have to amplify the messages that President Trump is putting out on a daily basis, constantly berating the Democratic process, claiming it is a rigged game, claiming it is replete with fraud, all of which we know is false.
But it is exactly that sort of rhetoric that causes extremists to feel like now is the time to take action. It serves as a sort of trigger for folks who are already violent, maybe unstable, pointed in that direction anyway.
That encouragement from someone like the president of the United States cannot possibly be overstated. It is dangerous. And we now see it happening on the streets of Michigan.
KEILAR: We have seen some individuals hear what the president has to say, interpret it as a call to action. Some of them are in prison now.
Andrew McCabe, former FBI deputy director.
Shimon Prokupecz, great reporting.
Thank you very much.
We have more breaking news. The Biden campaign just rejected the Trump campaign demand to delay the second debate after the president refuses to participate in a virtual debate on the regularly scheduled day.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:36:49]
KEILAR: Now to the 2020 campaign and the debate over debates, and how to hold them when one of the candidates, President Trump, is battling coronavirus.
This morning, President Trump bailed on a proposed virtual debate with former Vice President Joe Biden set for one week from today, telling FOX this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (voice-over): I heard that the commission a little while ago changed the debate style and that's not acceptable to us.
I beat him easily in the first debate, according to the polls that I've seen. But I beat him easily. I felt I beat him easily. I think he felt it, too.
No, I am not wasting time on a virtual debate. That's not what debating is all about. You sit behind a computer and do a debate. It's ridiculous. And then they cut you off whenever they want.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Team Biden then suggested the second that maybe the second face-to-face clash with Trump could happen the following week. The Trump campaign agreed but added that the third and final debate should be a few days before the election.
That's when the Biden campaign pushed back, saying the president's erratic behavior doesn't allow him to rewrite the calendar.
CNN White House correspondent, Kaitlan Collins, is with me.
We had a lot of developments. Take us through what the debate schedule is looking like, Kaitlan.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: It still seems to be determined, Brianna, because they're saying -- they're saying they agree with the suggestion by the Biden campaign to push it back a week.
That would mean the second debate would not happen in a week from today but would happen two weeks from today on October 22nd.
But what the Trump campaign wants to do is a third debate, which would be just days before the election. I don't think we've seen a debate that close to voters going to the polls.
The Biden campaign is pushing back on that, saying, no, if we delay the debate by a week, that should be the final debate before voters go to the polls.
It still seems unclear what they're going to do.
I should remind viewers this is a decision that organizers of the debates made this morning before letting the campaigns know.
Typically, they have been going back on forth on things like with the Plexiglas at the V.P. debate, both sides came to an agreement on what it will look like.
But this appears to be executive decision by the Commission on Debates.
I think there are a few reasons the president pushed back on the idea of virtual debate. One, he made clear he doesn't want to be muted by the moderator. He admitted that would be a potential if they appeared virtually, he and Joe Biden.
Secondly, Brianna, if it is virtual, it will only remind viewers constantly that we are still very much in the middle of a pandemic.
That's something the Trump campaign has tried to turn viewers and voters away from, to focus them on other issues like the Supreme Court and taxes and what not.
Because they don't want to just focus on the pandemic. They know voters rejected their handling of it.
It is still unclear if this is going to happen.
But the president seems to be saying that his diagnosis has nothing to do with this, even though that's primarily the reason they moved that first debate.
And instead, we've heard very little from the president's doctor. He has not taken questions from reporters since Monday.
That's allowing the president to go and do interviews and put his own spin on his health, claiming things like he is not contagious anymore, even though it has only been a week since he was diagnosed -- Brianna?
KEILAR: We have not heard officially that he is not contagious or that he tested negative for coronavirus.
[13:40:05]
Kaitlan Collins, thank you so much.
I want to talk now with veteran journalist, Carole Simpson. She's the first woman and African-American to moderate a presidential debate, We're joined by David Chalian, our CNN political director.
Carole, what do you think about where we are now, the president's decision not to accept a virtual format for next week's town hall debate and then this rejection of pushing debates closer to the election?
CAROLE SIMPSON, VETERAN JOURNALIST & FIRST WOMAN AND FIRST AFRICAN- AMERICAN TO MODERATE A PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE: Brianna, the man is sick. He needs to be in the bed, in the family quarters, resting himself and getting well. He's contagious. The doctors have not told us otherwise.
So I don't know. I think he is speaking from his drug and steroid- induced state of mind and he's not making any sense.
I don't think there are going to be any more debates because I think he still is not well.
KEILAR: You think there are not going to be any more debates at all?
SIMPSON: I don't.
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: David, what do you think?
That's true. They're very much not in agreement now. They clearly don't trust each other.
David, what do you think about all of this?
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes. As Kaitlan reported, I think that the exact future of these debates is still to be determined.
What is crystal clear to me, in all of the back and forth today, Brianna, Joe Biden's campaign is in the driver's seat on that topic.
The president sort of gave that to them as soon as he said he wouldn't participate in next week's debate in Miami, the town hall debate after the commission announced they would do it with candidates in remote locations.
And once Donald Trump stepped away from the debate, he was precisely where the Biden campaign wanted him.
They're not eager to do more debates, the Biden campaign. They have a double-digit lead nationally. They're leading in a lot of battleground state polls. They don't want to take on unnecessary risk when they're doing so well in the race now.
Donald Trump is the one that needs the debate. He needs tens of millions of Americans tuning into a moment he can possibly try to use to turnaround his fortunes.
Yet, it was Donald Trump that walked away. So Biden got to be not the wimp factor, saying I am ready and willing and able to debate. Let's to do it from remote locations.
And it is not about the rules after last week's debate and will timekeepers be in place, will rules be enforced. No. It is about coronavirus and the president being sick, which is the issue the Biden campaign wants front and center.
Right now, the Biden campaign has the Trump campaign where it wants it over the debate issue.
KEILAR: This all started, David, with the commission talking about a virtual debate. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but seems like a virtual debate could have presented incredible challenges.
CHALIAN: Well, yes and no. I think the word "virtual" we should be a little wary of. Right now, we are having a virtual conversation. Carole and I are in
remote locations. You're an anchor. Through television, we're having the conversation.
It would look more like that than a Zoom meeting with the president and Joe Biden.
(LAUGHTER)
CHALIAN: So I do think the idea of being remote, you're right, it does present challenges. There could be delays.
There's could be the opportunity, the fear that the president said that his mic would be cut off and he would be muted somehow in the middle of the debate.
There's no doubt it would not look like the debates we're used to seeing. Although, history shows us that one of the Kennedy-Nixon debates back in 1960 was done with candidates in remote locations as well.
KEILAR: I do not think it would turn out exactly like the way we're discussing now. I will say that.
Carole, I wanted to ask you about something else as well. We have seen the president unleash -- we heard him unleash this personal attack on Senator Kamala Harris.
And I want to play some of what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP (voice-over): She was terrible. She was -- I don't think you could get worse, and totally unlikable, and she is. She's a Communist. And this monster that was on stage with Mike Pence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Carole, what is your reaction?
SIMPSON: Oh. It makes me crazy.
She's incompetent. She's a Communist. She's a monster? A monster is a creature, a horrifying creature. It is not even human. He is dehumanizing her.
It is, again, his misogyny and racism. I don't think he would have said that about a white woman. I think a black woman is a monster. I think it is just horrible.
And again, he's sick. And maybe the drugs and steroids talking. But this is really bad. This is one of the worst I've ever heard him use against a woman.
[13:45:03]
KEILAR: It is very bad.
Carole --
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: Thank you so much, Carole Simpson.
David Chalian, thank you as well.
The White House chief of staff under fire for reportedly hosting a lavish wedding in Atlanta that went against the state and city's coronavirus rules for the number of people who can gather.
Plus, we're going to roll tape on the one question the president's doctors and staff refuse to answer about his condition.
And the president appears to blame Gold Star families for his getting infected, basically suggesting he sacrificed himself for them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: At the center of the mystery surrounding the president's coronavirus diagnosis is the question of when he last tested negative. The White House refuses to say. And they have racked up quite the list of excuses why.
Let's roll the tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED ANCHOR: I'm asking, do you know the answer when the president's last negative test was? Do you actually know that information, Brian?
BRIAN MORGENSTEIN, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: I personally do not.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you remember when he had his last negative test?
DR. SEAN CONLEY, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PHYSICIAN: I don't want to go backwards.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: When was the last negative test? What was his viral load?
CONLEY: Everyone wants that.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Why is there hesitancy to when the last negative test was?
CONLEY: Again, HIPAA kind of precludes me from going into too much depth on things that I am not at liberty -- don't wish to be discussed. BRETT BAER, FOX NEWS HOST: We don't know when his last negative test
was. Will we?
MARK MEADOWS, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: Well, we don't normally get into the testing protocol for the president.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Was he tested before the debate? And was he tested on Thursday before the events in -
KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I'm not giving a detailed readout with time stamps every time the president is tested. He is tested regularly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: So why is knowing this so crucially important? Because it could save someone's life.
First, it would narrow the window to know who the president may have exposed.
It would narrow the window to how and when the president was infected.
It would let the public know where the president actually is in his health fight.
It would show how long he should be isolated instead of shedding the virus like Pig Pen from "Peanuts" all over the White House.
The doctor says he doesn't want to look backwards. That's entire point of contact tracing, which is essential, and which the White House refuses to do, or let the CDC do.
It's October. And nationally, they have no contact tracing strategy. They don't want to know the scope of the problem. They don't want you to know the scope of the problem across the country or inside the White House.
If it wasn't a damning account of their failures, they'd try to survey the problem.
So why won't the White House say when the president's last negative COVID test was? Is it because he didn't get a test before the debate with Joe Biden, even though it was required by rules in an attempt to keep people safe?
Is it because he will prove testing doesn't actually prevent the spread of coronavirus, it just reveals it?
[13:50:02]
The president and many around him still don't seem to understand this basic fact.
Like Republican Senator Mike Lee, who was in the second row at that Supreme Court event and then tested positive in the past week. He defended the lack of distancing, the lack of masks, by tweeting
this, quote, "We had all just tested negative, every person there. The mainstream media seems to never want to mention that fact."
Well, the Senator apparently never wants to mention the fact that you can test negative and still be infected and, thus, contagious.
Those are actually a patient's most contagious days. That you can test negative for days, and then later test positive, like White House Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany did, like top trump aide, Stephen Miller, did.
And you can't be saved from infection or prevent someone else from infection by simply getting a test.
But, sure, blame the mainstream media for your hugs and your close talking, your naked face, at what is shaping up to be the D.C.'s biggest super-spreader event.
The real culprit is the inadequate protections against coronavirus at the White House. That includes the lack of transparency on when the president last tested negative.
Which is enabled by excuses like this one by the president's physician.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONLEY: Again, HIPAA kind of precludes me from going into too much depth on things that I am not at liberty -- don't wish to be discussed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: The doctor likes to say it's a HIPAA thing. It's a patient privacy thing.
But that didn't get in his way back in March when the president tested negative and Dr. Conley was just fine announcing it. Or in May, when the president tested negative and the good doctor revealed it then.
No word why HIPAA applies in October at the White House, but not in the spring or why reality doesn't apply at all. Really ever.
Next, the debate ratings from last night are in and they're big.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: A blatant flouting of the rules by White House chief of staff, Mark Meadows. In May, while gatherings in Atlanta were limited to 10 people due to coronavirus, Meadows hosted a lavish 70-person wedding in the city for his daughter.
This is a story broken by "The Atlanta Journal-Constitution," which reports that Republican Congressman Jim Jordan was also among those in attendance. Just to be clear, in May, Georgia was averaging about 600 new cases
per day. By the end of May, cases top 45,000, deaths were nearing 2,000.
I'm joined by one of the reporters who broke this story. Greg Bluestein is a political reporter for "The Atlanta Journal- Constitution."
Greg, thank you so much for being with us. Good to see you.
You and your colleague, what you did was you reviewed pictures of the event. You say it was, looking it, like there was no pandemic happening at all.
Tell us about what you saw.
[13:55:00]
GREG BLUESTEIN, POLITICAL REPORTER, "THE ATLANTA JOURNAL- CONSTITUTION": Yes. At the time, there were strict order from the governor's office saying no gatherings of more than 10 people were allowed in Georgia.
He had relaxed other businesses restrictions but you still couldn't have large gatherings in the state of Georgia.
And at the same time, Mark Meadows threw a wedding, a lavish wedding, at a midtown Atlanta hotel with 70 to 80 people, caterers, a live band playing.
And the pictures show large groups of people gathered on the same dance floor, or in seats watching the wedding without masks, without social distancing, and without following what looks like any safety precautions.
KEILAR: The wedding took place on May 31st. And then you saw, on June 1st, the restrictions were relaxed a little bit.
Even so, this event was breaking what would have been those more relaxed rules, right?
BLUESTEIN: Exactly. The very next day, a new statewide order took effect that, for the first time, specified rules for event facilities to have things like weddings. But they still banned gatherings of more than 25 people.
Even to this day, in Georgia, gatherings of more than 50 people are still banned.
What we're hearing from readers and viewers is just outrage that they had to have their funerals remote or had to cancel weddings or other family events for loved ones that they couldn't have in person.
And yet, Mark Meadows, the White House chief of staff, came to Atlanta and had his daughter's wedding here in person.
KEILAR: Has there been much enforcement when it comes to these gathering guidelines across the state?
BLUESTEIN: Really none at all, I mean, or not very visible. As I mentioned, there's still bans on gatherings of more than 50 people.
But just in the last few weeks, we've had President Trump arrive in Georgia. Georgia's polls show a very close race here, so he was here about two weeks ago.
Vice President Mike Pence was here last week. We've had a number of Republican surrogates visiting the state at campaign rallies.
And even Governor Kemp has appeared at some of these rallies with hundreds of people, few masks, indoor and outdoor, in defiance of his own public safety order.
KEILAR: Greg Bluestein, with the "AJC," thank you so much for coming on and sharing your reporting with us.
BLUESTEIN: Thanks for having me.
KEILAR: Just in, the ratings are in from last night's vice- presidential debate.
Let's go now to CNN's Brian Stelter.
What are you seeing? Are these big?
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT & CNN HOST, "RELIABLE SOURCES": They are a lot higher than I expected, to be honest, Brianna. About 50 million people tuned in for the vice-presidential debate. Compare that to the same debate in 2016, about 35 million.
These numbers will decrease late in the day when the final figures are released. But at least 50 million people watched the vice-presidential debate.
Normally, this is more like the junior varsity ticket or the just-in- case sort of debate. It gets a lot less attention than the presidential debates.
But, no, not this year. This year, I think many Americans see how important the vice-presidential candidates are. They recognize the age of the candidates at the top of the ticket. They were very interested in this debate.
So more than 50 million. Probably closer to 60 million when the final numbers come in late today.
It just goes to show people are wide awake and paying attention -- Brianna?
KEILAR: They're wide awake and paying attention.
You also have -- I mean, we're in a pandemic, right? So I think people are watching more in general.
Is there any way to tell how much of this is enthusiasm about the, I guess, process --
STELTER: I lost you, unfortunately.
KEILAR: Oh, no. OK. Unfortunately -- Brian, here I am talking to myself.
Brian Stelter, thank you so much. We appreciate it.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
KEILAR: I'm Brianna Keilar. And we do begin now with breaking news. The FBI announcing it has charged six men who were allegedly plotting to kidnap the governor of Michigan, Democrat Gretchen Whitmer from her vacation home in Michigan.
These men are also accused of planning to overthrow the government.
Dramatic details of the investigation just announced a short time ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREW BIRGE, U.S. ATTORNEY, WESTERN DISTRICT OF MICHIGAN: After becoming aware that, through social media, that a group of individuals was discussing the violent overthrow of certain government and law enforcement components.
Through confidential sources, undercover agents and clandestine reportings, law enforcement learned particular individuals were planning to kidnap the governor and acting in furtherance of that plan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: And all of this is happening against the backdrop of new warnings about extremist groups in America.
Let's go to Jessica Schneider with more on this.
Juliette Kayyem joining me now.
Jessica -- there's Jessica Schneider.
All right, Jessica, tell us more. I mean this -- we learned some stunning details really from law enforcement officials both from the state and the federal level. Explain this all to us.
[14:00:04]
JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we heard from these law enforcement officials about an hour ago.
