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Ignoring Risks, Infected Trump Holds Event At White House, Addresses Crowd From White House Balcony; Dr. Megan Ranney Discusses Trump Touting Unproven COVID Antibody Treatment As "Cure"; Federal Judge Blocks Order Limiting Ballot Drop Boxes In Texas. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired October 10, 2020 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:00:00]

ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Erica Hill in for Ana Cabrera.

And we begin with begin with breaking news, a desperate president down in the polls inviting hundreds to hear him speak while he is infected with coronavirus.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: -- most important than anything else, science, medicine will eradicate the china virus once and for all. We'll get rid of it all over the world.

It's going to disappear. It is disappearing. And vaccines are going to help and the therapeutics are going to help a lot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: So, you see the president there a short time ago speaking from the balcony. A mere two weeks after a Rose Garden ceremony became a super-spreader event. And yet, somehow, here we are again, it's important to note the president is lying when he says the virus is just going away. Not only is it currently spreading through his own White House, but for the last three days, the U.S. has reported more than 50,000 new cases a day. The last time we saw that happen in this country was mid-August. It's not October.

A key model is now projecting 395,000 U.S. deaths by February. The president, though, he wants to get out there. The Trump campaign says, he's planning to hold three rallies next week, all of this as the White House is still refusing to answer basic questions about the president's health. Among them, is he still contagious? We don't know. Has the president tested negative? We don't know. When did he contract the virus? We don't know that either.

Here is what we do know. The clock is ticking. There are just 24 days until the election, and that is clearly on the president's mind.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond is standing by at the White House. So, Jeremy, the administration says this event, complied with CDC guidelines, what sort of safety measures were in place today?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know that the White House was doing temperature checks of people who were coming in. They were also asking them questions about whether or not they were having in the systems and everybody was required to bring masks to this event. And, in fact, we did most people at this event, we got several hundred people in the south lawn of the White House, they were indeed wearing masks.

But what was missing here was any social distancing, whatsoever. You saw these people closely packed together. And we should note that the CDC points out mask-wearing is not a substitute for social distancing, it's something that you should layer on top of that.

The CDC also says that these large gatherings like this, these large in-person gatherings, are the highest risk category. They say, large in-person gatherings where it is difficult for individuals to remain spaced at least six feet apart and attendees travel from outside the local area, those are the highest risk events that you can engage in the United States as it relates to this coronavirus pandemic.

And so we should note that while just two weeks after the White house held this event in the Rose Garden, that turned out to be a super- spreader event. While the president may have been at a much greater distance from these people here, these hundreds of people who attended this event on the south lawn, they could very much be at risk of contracting coronavirus from each other or from the White House staff, which we know, again, they're still experiencing this outbreak here at the White House.

HILL: They are, and we haven't heard the president say anything about that.

Meantime, the campaign has already announced three rallies for next week and there are still these questions, really important, really easy to answer with a yes or no, Jeremy, of whether the president had actually tested negative yet for coronavirus since his infection. Any further clarity today?

DIAMOND: No. And we should point out that Alyssa Farah, the White House communications director, said earlier today that they would release that information as soon as they have it, once the president tests negative for coronavirus, suggesting that, as of yet, the president has not yet tested negative for the virus, but, of course, his campaign is moving full steam ahead here, Erica.

And they have three campaign rallies scheduled for next week in some of these key battleground states on Monday in Florida, on Tuesday in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, and then on Wednesday in Des Moines, Iowa. These are all states that the president won in 2016 and that needs to win most likely in order to secure his re-election.

And so what is clear here, Erica, and what has been clear from the president's public rhetoric since he contracted this virus is that he's using his illness not to educate the public on the risk of coronavirus, not to warn his supporters, many of whom may not believe, many of whom I've interviewed at his rallies who don't believe in the severity of this pandemic.

He hasn't used this moment to educate them on the severity of this illness, which got him so badly, instead he has used it to amplify his message throughout this pandemic, and that is to amplify his downplaying of the risks of the virus. We heard the president days after he was released from the hospital, say, don't be afraid of this virus, don't let it dominate you.

And now, we see that the president is very intent in these final weeks of this campaign to continue forging ahead in the same way that he has before, and that is with rallies where you have thousands of people packed together elbow to elbow, shoulder to shoulder.

[15:05:10]

And you can listen as well to what the president said when he was asked specifically about whether or not he has tested negative just last night. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I have been retested and I haven't even found out numbers or anything yet, but I've been retested and I know I'm at either the bottom of the scale or free.

MARK LEVIN, FOX NEWS HOST: When is your next test going to be?

TRUMP: I don't know, probably tomorrow, Mark. They test every couple of days, I guess, but it's really at a level now that's been great to see it disappear.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DIAMOND: And so you see the president there unable to say that he's tested negative yet, most likely because he hasn't. And, of course, this is a continuation of the lack of transparency we've seen around the president's illness. And we still don't know as well when the president last tested negative before he tested positive for the virus, including whether he tested negative before attending that presidential debate with Joe Biden. Erica?

HILL: Yes, the White House is certainly not forthcoming on answers to those questions either. Jeremy, great reporting as always, thank you.

Joining me now, Infectious Disease Expert and former New York Assistant Commissioner of Health, Dr. Celine Gounder, Washington Bureau Chief for The Daily Beast, Jackie Kucinich, and Political Anchor for Spectrum News, Errol Louis.

So, Dr. Gounder, as we look at what we just saw a short time ago at the White House, this event is double the size of what we now know is a super-spreader event in the Rose Garden two weeks ago. And based on what we just heard from Jeremy Diamond, was it any safer, the fact that we did see a few more masks there?

DR. CELINE GOUNDER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Erica, I am very concerned that they are holding another mass gathering at the White House. We know that mass gatherings are by far the riskiest kinds of social situations for transmissions of coronavirus. Yes, the mask will reduce the risk but masks aren't perfect. Being outdoors isn't perfect. Each of these interventions reduces the risk to some degree but none is perfect.

I think big picture, what also concerns me is it's not so much the president infecting people who are attending this event, it's that you have a lot of White House staff who have been exposed, who have not been appropriately contact traced by the CDC, who may be incubating the virus or infected with a virus and who could potentially infect those who were attending this event there today.

HILL: Well, to that point, we know that symptoms can take up to 14 days to appear today, as 14 days, two weeks since that event. Based on what you say, should anything be held at this point at the White House until we know that everyone who could potentially come in contact there is safe?

GOUNDER: I think that's a really important point. I think there continues to be a lot of confusion about what is quarantine, what is isolation, for how long. Quarantine is 14 days from the time that you were first exposed that you should not be around other people.

The incubation period is 14 days. In terms of isolation, that's really referring to somebody who is sick, who is infected, like the president. And that is a minimum of ten days after symptom onset, minimum of ten days. And for patients who have more severe disease who end up in the ICU who maybe are on immunosuppression, that could be up to 20 days.

HILL: As we look to at what we heard from the president, I mean, this was clearly a campaign-style event. The president also said this was an event, as we know, for African-Americans, for Latinos. These are the two groups that have been hit hardest by the virus in this country, Errol. And yet the messaging from the president certainly wasn't addressing that or addressing those needs, which is perhaps, on the one hand, not surprising and yet, it is a glaring omission to not even talk about that, Errol.

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Sure. It's troubling in some ways. Because with another part of the government and Health and Human Services, they've put out millions and millions of dollars to specifically try and reach black and Latino and native communities because the rates of hospitalization and mortality are so much higher in those communities. It's a real serious problem and it has been from the very beginning.

And, again, it's not unknown to this administration for the president to not even mention it, for the president apparently not to have taken it into account, when, specifically, gathering black and Latino supporters to the White House and then packing them in depends that way, really shows the kind of a lack of regard for them.

Everyone is going to have to really educate themselves if they want to deal with this administration because they've made it unquestionably clear that their stance is going to be bold defiance of the very science that their own administration has put forward to the public. So there are conflicting messages. People are going to have to really choose safety.

HILL: Conflicting messages, there's also a lack of messaging, a lack of transparency, which, again, is not new to this White House. But it is increasingly important when we're talking about a president who is infected with the virus himself.

[15:10:01]

Jackie, it really stood out to me, and we heard Jeremy played the clip there, but the fact that when the president was asked last night about when he was last tested, whether it was negative, he couldn't even answer the question in the friendliest of formats on Fox News. That in itself, Jackie, is really telling.

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, right, because it's important to know when he was infected, so we can project or try to figure out when he could be COVID-free. I mean, the fact that they're going forward with these rallies, the president traveling on a plane, going somewhere with his staff, that there's going to be people, he can't isolate on Air Force One, you're on an airplane.

And so --and attracting all these people in Florida, which have been hard hit by the virus and some of these other states that are still grappling with the virus. It's just -- as Errol says, it shows a willful disregard.

And it's not that we are curious about the -- it's not just a curio when the president was infected. This is important information for the sake of public health and for the sake of the country. He's the president of the United States. His health is important to the health of the country.

HILL: Absolutely, it is. Dr. Gounder, he was talking a little bit more about, I guess, sort of where he's at and last night was saying that he need not any more medications, he also gave a few more details. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I feel very strong. I didn't feel very vital. I didn't feel like the president of the U.S. should feel. And I knew there was something a little bit off.

LEVIN: Did you want to leave earlier, the hospital, earlier, than they said, Mr. President?

TRUMP: I did. They wanted to keep me for observation. They wanted to be sure I was good. But I did. I was there for, I guess, 3.5 days. They wanted to keep me -- I wanted to leave after the first day. I really felt I was in not bad shape after the first day.

Right now, I'm medication-free. I'm not taking any medications as of probably eight hours ago or so. I'm medication-free, which frankly makes me feel good. I don't like medication.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: I'm guessing, not a medical expert, but it's only have been 8 hours, there could be something in his system, Dr. Gounder. But in addition to that, his physician said in a memo that the president is cleared to resume his activities. But what was interesting is he didn't talk at all about the data that was used to make that assessment.

So, give us a sense. If -- and I know you're not treating the president and you obviously haven't been able to see what's happening with him. But for any patient who had been diagnosed, who had had some of these medications, who had serious enough symptoms to be hospitalized, what kind of data would you be using to clear them to return to regular activities?

GOUNDER: So, Erica, we would look at a couple of different things. At a minimum, you would want to see their fever curve, their temperatures. You would want to see their oxygen saturation levels, what are their oxygen levels without supplemental oxygen, and not just at rest, when they're walking around. You would also want to see some blood tests that give you some sense as to whether they are resolving the infection.

I think it's also really important to point out, he says that he is off of all medications. Dexamethasone is usually used for a ten-day course, and so he would not have completed a ten-day course of dexamethasone by now assuming we're being given full and complete information. So it's very difficult to make a determination as to whether it's really appropriate to clear him given the complete lack of transparency about his clinical course.

HILL: Despite the president saying that once having contracted the virus, he has now learned so much and he really understands it better, it doesn't seem that anything has changed. Jackie, as we look at this moving forward, how do you expect Joe Biden, who's really been a little bit more forceful, I think, in the last few days, how do you expect him to jump on what we saw earlier today?

KUCINICH: Well, I mean, you heard him rebuke Trump in strong terms. He's increasingly rebuking him in strong terms since he came out of the hospital. I think they're back on air with negative ads about the president. And I think the Biden campaign is just going to stay the course at this point and he has been consistent in pointing out how the president has made this pandemic worse by his rhetoric, by making masks into a political issue.

It's not a political issue, it's science, which is something you're hearing from the Biden campaign over and over and over again. And I think that message just keeps on getting stronger. Assuming the president continues to get better, Biden did show restraint once the president was in the hospital.

They did pull down those ads. But as long as the president is out and campaigning, I think you could expect Biden and his campaign to keep hitting them hard on the pandemic, on the handling of the pandemic and how they continue to promote misinformation and, yes --

[15:15:00]

HILL: Errol, 24 days to go now. There you go. I got it. I followed you, Jackie. Don't worry.

Errol, 24 days to go now as we look at what the president can do in these final three weeks and change, he still seems to be consistently just messaging his base. Any chance that's going to change?

LOUIS: Well, he would be well advised to switch up that strategy. What we saw today basically was a catastrophe from a political standpoint. It was supposed to be a 30-minute speech. He quit after about 17 minutes. He started saying things that were so off the wall that a lot of the coverage was simply cut midstream, as CNN did, just because he was putting out false information. So he's going to have to do considerably better than that if he wants to make the best use of these last three weeks.

And the shame of it is, the mystery of it, frankly, is that he's the president of the United States. People will cover him. If he just -- because you want to stand on a balcony and talk to cheering throngs, the reality doesn't allow for that right now. So you're going to have to do the next best thing, whether that's an in-person interview. There are all kinds of different ways of doing it.

If you have seen town halls that have been done by Joe Biden and Joe Biden is really just kind of running up and down the length and breadth of the country in an innovative way, taking advantage of the circumstances as finds them. The sooner the Trump campaign realizes that that's what they are going to have to do, the more likely they will be to have a successful conclusion to this campaign. Right now, it's not going very well.

HILL: Errol Louis, Jackie Kucinich, Dr. Celine Gounder, thank you all.

Just ahead, why the president's two balcony appearances this week could define his presidency? You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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[15:20:00]

HILL: Just how will history remember this image? President Trump standing on the balcony speaking to a crowd he called to the White House despite the fact he's infected with coronavirus, despite the fact so many people he works with also fallen ill.

So much has happened. It's actually tough to remember, this is the second balcony moment staged this week. The first, of course, happened all the way back on Monday when the president, fresh from the hospital, fresh from Walter Reed, he returned, he ripped that mask off, saluted Marine One. Some analysts including the president's former communications director comparing that moment to the infamous balcony scenes of Benito Mussolini.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: And you've got, you know, I don't know, the American Mussolini standing on the balcony. We've never had a president stand on that balcony and do what he just did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Joining me now, Yale History Professor Timothy Snyder. He is the author of, Our Malady, Lessons in Liberty from a Hospital Diary, as well as, On Tyranny, 20 Lessons From the 20th Century. Professor Snyder, great to have you with us this afternoon.

So, I'm curious, what did you make of the president's balcony moments and that comparison we heard from Anthony Scaramucci to Mussolini?

TIMOTHY SNYDER, PROFESSOR OF HISTORY, YALE UNIVERSITY: I think you can draw a couple of things from the balcony. The first is privilege, here I am, someone who has access to the best medical in the world. Here I am, someone who can -- is in position to boast because your taxpayer dollars have just paid for my care. Here I am, someone who is exceptional. So that's the first lesson. The lesson is one of privilege. He's asking Americans to accept this system in which a very few people get excellent care, whereas most people are expected to risk death.

The second, I think, the second symbol which is related is that of the authoritarian or the strong man, or even as Mr. Scaramucci says, the fascist. Because what Mr. Trump is doing is saying, I survived this not because of the facts, not because of the medicine but because of my strength. I want you to understand that I'm special, I'm strong. And for that reason, I should be allowed to rule. And to rule over you, because, of course, it's only remarkable that he survives because of his strength if the rest of us are weaker and die.

So that posture that I'm strong and therefore I survived is perfectly consistent with having a policy which allows the rest of us to die, which, of course, has been what's happened for the last ten months.

HILL: I just want to pick up a little bit on what you said there about the strong man, because we've talked so much about this, honestly, over the last four years, about strong man, the president's seeming infatuation with them. But the president also has consistently this desire to project -- as you point out, to project strength. So there's the strong man part of it, but was there anything in that moment, because the president strength there. He walked up, right, under his own power. He was standing there. Did he project any strength in that moment?

SNYDER: Well, not to me, you know, but we all have our tastes, I guess. I mean, for me, the most important thing is there's one kind of politics which is about recognizing the world, seeing it the way it is, diagnosing the problem and solving it. And that's normal democratic or rule of law politics. We're living in the same world. We share facts. We draw policies, and I get credit if I solve a problem. And there's another kind of politics which says, there aren't really facts, we're not really sure what's happening. I mean, the way the president's illness has been treated is just a microcosm of the way this country or this federal government has dealt with coronavirus from the very beginning. And this type of politics, there is no certainty, there is no policy, there is no diagnosis, there are just myths and gestures, and in the end, spectacle.

Spectacle is the art of the authoritarian. That's what we're seeing here. It doesn't look strong to me. It looks like a whole year of allowing people in your country to die. But as I say, tastes vary.

HILL: An excellent point. The president went on a rant on Fox News this week. He's lashing at Hillary Clinton, asking why she hadn't been indicted, calling on the attorney general, Attorney General Barr, to go after Joe Biden, as well as former President Obama.

[15:25:04]

Take a listen to this moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Unless Bill Barr indicts these people for crimes, the greatest political crime in the history of our country, then we're going to get little satisfaction unless I win and we'll just have to go, because I won't forget it. But these people should be indicted.

This was the greatest political crime in the history of our country, and that includes Obama and it includes Biden. These are people that spied at my campaign and we have everything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: He seems to really to be seeking out these feuds, trying to bring, I guess, 2016 back because it worked for him. What's your reaction to what we're hearing in that moment?

SNYDER: Well, as a historian, I think it's really important to think about electoral intervention. My friend and student, David Shimner, wrote a wonderful book about electoral intervention. It's important for us to remember that in 2016, as a matter of fact, the United States was the victim of an electoral interference policy carried out successfully by Russia. That's one of many times in history that this has happened.

What Mr. Trump is doing is taking that event and trying to flip it around in our memory, turning himself into the victim, when, in fact, he was the beneficiary, and, of course, drawing our attention away from the fact that, once again, Russia is carrying out a propaganda on his behalf.

He's not a victim, he's a beneficiary, drawing attention away from the fact that we really should be worried about in the United States is having the fairest and cleanest election that we can, something that he, as in himself is, unfortunately, has been working against these last few months.

HILL: Professor Timothy Snyder, great to have you with us today. Thank you.

SNYDER: My pleasure.

HILL: Be sure to join Fareed Zakaria for an in depth look at President Trump's impact on the relationships between the United States and its allies. How the World sees America, a Fareed Zakaria special, airs tomorrow night on CNN at 9:00 P.M. Eastern.

So are we now starting the see that dreaded second wave of coronavirus? The U.S. just recording its highest number of new daily cases since August, a key model now predicting nearly 400,000 deaths by February 1st. But, and this is the important but, we know one simple action could save some 75,000 lives. That's next.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:31:49]

HILL: Troubling signs of a pandemic getting worse not just around the globe but in the United States. More than 57,000 new cases of COVID-19 reported on Friday across the nation.

That's the highest single day number of new cases in the United States in nearly two months. And check out that map. Cases rising in 28 states.

In the meantime, this is President Trump pushing an unproven antibody treatment. Just take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (voice-over): This is the antibody and Regeneron. It's the most unbelievable thing I've ever seen.

It's not Remdesivir. Maybe that helps a little bit. But Remdesivir is from -- not the same thing. This is stuff that is so good.

And I'm just saying that we have something that will cure this now and a cure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: The president calling it a cure.

Joining me now, Dr. Megan Ranney, emergency room physician at Brown University.

Dr. Ranney, when we look at this, there's a big distinction, obviously, between something that's a cure and something that is a treatment. Can you give us the facts on this one? What should we all know today?

DR. MEGAN RANNEY, EMERGENCY ROOM PHYSICIAN, ALPERT MEDICAL SCHOOL, BROWN UNIVERSITY: The first and most important fact to know today, the only way to avoid COVID-19, to avoid dying from COVID-19 is to prevent yourself from getting infected in the first place.

There's no proven cure for this disease. There are some treatments. Regeneron may be one of them. But we don't have enough data to know if it works.

The only thing you can guarantee to do to prevent yourself and your family from getting sick, getting hospitalized or dying is to stop yourself from getting sick in the first place, which is to wear a mask, wash your hands, and try to maintain physical distancing when you can.

HILL: Those three things we have known for months.

We heard from Rick Bright, this top scientist who was abruptly ousted in April after he pushed back on the president pushing Hydroxychloroquine.

He spoke with Jake Tapper this week and I was really struck by some of what he had to say. I'm going to play some of that for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICK BRIGHT, FORMER HHS SCIENTIST: He thought Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine were miracles, a gift from God, the cure-all. Miraculously going to address this virus. They weren't.

He thought disinfectants were something we look into. That wasn't sarcastic. I watched it.

I was horrified that I would get a call within a day at BARDA to start a clinical study or investigating how we could inject disinfectants. That was a real panic moment for us in science.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Again, he was working on the vaccine. The fact that he said the president was absolutely serious.

And we know because we heard about the calls that came in from people who tried to swallow some sort of disinfectant thinking that it could, in fact, help them with coronavirus, which it can't, we know. In fact, it could be deadly.

When you hear that, though, and hear, too, that, once again, he's saying the president was using that word "miraculous," saying Hydroxychloroquine could be a cure, it's clear what the president is looking for.

RANNEY: Yes. Erica, it's like the little boy who cried Wolf. He keeps touting that there's some miracle, there's some amazing thing that's going to make this all go away.

[15:35:01]

Just today, we heard him say that COVID is disappearing. That is false. We have no proven miracle cure.

And it does a disservice to my patients and my community to continue to say that he somehow found this magic, which, again, it is magical thinking to think that we found a cure.

The only thing we have is prevention. And he's distracting us from that by creating these mythical creatures that somehow he has power over. But they don't actually work.

HILL: When we look at the way the numbers are rising across the country, are we entering the second wave we've heard so much about or is this just another peak in the first wave?

RANNEY: Erica, myself, I am an E.R. doc. And my colleagues across the country, we are all seeing increasing numbers of COVID-19 patients, that are coming into our E.R.s, who are getting really sick, requiring hospitalization and even intensive care.

We did see those spikes in numbers about a month ago that were largely younger people going back to college.

But what we're seeing now, it's starting to spread in the community. And we are all deeply afraid this is the beginning of that dreaded second wave.

We still don't have adequate personal protective equipment for physicians and nurses on the front lines across the country. We still don't have adequate testing supplies.

And as you and I just discused, we still don't have a cure.

So we're quite fearful for what we are heading into and what we're starting to see in our hospitals.

HILL: Amazing that we're still talking about this in October, inadequate testing, inadequate PPE.

Dr. Megan Ranney, always appreciate your insight. Thank you.

With President Trump infected with coronavirus and on a combination of drugs that have never before been given to someone dealing with coronavirus, just who decides if the president is fit to lead? Your legal questions answered next.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:40:58]

HILL: President Trump's coronavirus diagnosis more than a week ago is raising questions about who should determine if a president is too sick to lead the country.

Just yesterday, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi unveiling legislation that would set up a congressionally appointment commission to determine the fitness of future presidents to hold office under the 25th Amendment. The measure has little chance of becoming law.

Time now for your "CROSS EXAM" with CNN Legal Analyst, Elie Honig.

Elie, there's no indication of this since President Trump tested positive for coronavirus. But one viewer wants to know: What happens under the law if a president is alive, but incapacitated?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Erica, the Constitution gives us guidance on what happens in these extreme worse-case scenarios.

Under the 25th Amendment, either the president or the vice president, joined by a majority of the cabinet officials, can notify Congress that the president is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office.

If that happens, the vice president takes over, temporarily, unless and until the president certifies that he has recovered and can resume the office.

This has happened before. Most recently, President George W. Bush used this provision twice when he had routine surgeries that took him out of commission for just a few hours.

Congress has only a limited role. Congress does not have the power itself to invoke the 25th Amendment. Like you just said though, it can pass new legislation giving itself or others that right.

That's what Speaker Pelosi announced yesterday, that the House was looking at doing. Like you said, though, a bill like that really has little to no chance of passing the Senate, at least right now.

So these are all "break glass in case of emergency" type measures.

I do think it really shows a bit of reckless arrogance when you see our elected leaders take needless risks that could endanger other citizens, like we just say, and that could throw our government into crisis.

But we do have constitutional measures ready if that happens.

HILL: I want to transfer to another story really grabbing headlines this week and, I think, stopped a lot of people in their tracks.

On Thursday, 13 people were charged in an alleged domestic terrorism plot to kidnap Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer.

A viewer asking: In your experience as a prosecutor, is the plot against the Michigan governor an isolated incident or should we be concerned about other similar plots?

HONIG: This one really grabbed me as well, erica. I've seen my share of criminal complaints, murder cases, on down. This is really something new and darker.

A few things jumped off the page to me. First of all, this plot was very real. This was not isolated chatter. These defendants made tangible preparations. They had firearms. They discharged an explosive. They surveilled the governor's private home.

And it was politically motivated. They talked about the need to topple government, to do it before Election Day.

And as extreme and as alarming as this sounds, the FBI has been warning us about the rise of right-wing extremist violence and the use of social media to meet and communicate.

We saw both of those playing out to a tee on this case.

We've also seen a failure of political leadership here. The president has repeatedly declined to clearly and forcefully condemn right-wing extremism.

And in all of this, where is Bill Barr? Where is the attorney general of the United States? He has done nothing here. He has been invisible.

In my experience, an A.G. would often make a personal announcement at a press conference on a case like this. Bill Barr was a no-show. He skipped the press conference.

He's not made any sort of direct meaningful condemnation in this case. It's an inexcusable failure by a failed attorney general.

HILL: It leaves you scratching your head on why we've still not heard from the attorney general.

In the meantime, we're 24 days away from the election. Another viewer is now asking: If the case related to the election reaches the Supreme Court, would Amy Coney Barrett have to recuse herself?

I know some Senators have been asking her that question but would she actually have to, Elie?

HONIG: The answer is, no, she doesn't have to. She'll certainly be asked this question next week at her confirmation hearing.

The problem is President Trump's public comments could create a conflict of interest. He said this election could be disputed. We need nine justices and we need them before the election.

It certainly suggests he expects the nominee to rule in his favor. It really puts Barrett in a bad position, creating this conflict of interest.

[15:45:03]

There is a judicial code of conduct that applies to all federal judges, except Supreme Court justices. So it's entirely up to Amy Coney Barrett. Nobody can force her to recuse.

She will be asked that question. We'll see how she responds this week.

HILL: We'll be watching for that.

Elie, good to see you, my friend. Thank you.

HONIG: Thanks, Erica.

HILL: Coming up, is it about securing ballots or suppressing some of them? How an order to limit ballot drop boxes in Texas has now sparked a major league fight.

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[15:50:11]

HILL: Two big court rulings ahead of the election. First, in Pennsylvania, where a federal judge has denied the Trump campaign and Republican Party's bid to make ballot drop boxes in Pennsylvania unconstitutional.

The judge rejecting Republicans' fear of voter fraud, saying it's possible but not proven likely.

Meantime, in Texas, a federal judge there blocking an order by the state's Republican governor to limit ballot drop box locations to just one per county, even if that county has millions of residents.

Now, before the ruling, CNN's Ed Lavandera got a look at just how difficult it can be to get to just one designated drop box.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Welcome to Harris County, Texas. There are 2.4 million registered voters in this county.

And if you're one of those voters who is skeptical of voting in person because of the coronavirus pandemic, or you're concerned that the postal service won't get your ballot to the elections office in time, county officials here had set up 12 satellite drop boxes where people could drive their mail-in ballots and then drop them off at these locations across the county.

But the governor of Texas has ordered all counties across the state to close all of those down and that they can only have one of those satellite drop boxes open in the weeks leading up to the election.

So, this is the story of what it will take to get to that ballot box in Harris County.

It's just after 9:00 in the morning. We are in the far northeast corner of Harris County. The only drop box now available in this county is at NRG Football Stadium, which is 45 miles away.

But one of the locations that was closed down was just over 20 miles, so it's kind of along the way so we're going to drive by that location first. Harris County, which includes the city of Houston, is nearly 1,800

square miles, much larger than Rhode Island.

This county building is one of the 11 drop sites that was shut down by Governor Greg Abbott. It took us about 31 minutes to get here.

It's where we met Peaches Sullivan, who was dropping off voter registration forms for nursing home residents.

PEACHES SULLIVAN, DROPS OFF REGISTRATION FORMS FOR NURSING HOME RESIDENTS: People are still worried. Why would you risk being -- having people come out even more when they don't have to, especially with the preexisting conditions that they have.

LAVANDERA: This is a drive where you're going to see -- it's almost a slice of America. You'll see a little bit of everything on this drive from northeast Harris County to NRG Stadium where this drop box location is.

Of course, critics of the governor say this is really just a masquerade way of suppressing voter turnout, making it more difficult for voting populations in highly Democratic towns like Houston and Austin to be able to safely submit their votes in the age of this COVID pandemic.

The Texas governor says his decision will increase ballot security and help stop illegal voting, though there are no widespread problems with voter fraud.

So, this is the one drop box ballot site in Harris County.

Harris County clerk, Chris Hollins, says the Texas governor's move to close down the ballot drop sites is an abuse of power.

CHRIS HOLLINS, HARRIS COUNTY CLERK: To make it so that our voters who have disabilities, our elderly voters, have to drive over an hour, more than 50 miles in some cases, to drop off their mail ballot, it's unfair, it's prejudicial and it's dangerous.

LAVANDERA: The drive took us about an hour and eight minutes, So round trip, you're looking at about two hours and 15 minutes.

And quite honestly, it was an easy drive. We caught the traffic at a good time. It was actually relatively smooth sailing considering how bad traffic can get in the city.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HILL: Our thanks again to Ed Lavandera.

As we know, staying active is more important than ever for both your physical and mental health. For people recovering from addiction, that outlet can be life-saving.

And 2012 "CNN Hero" Scott Strode and his nonprofit provide free athletic activities and a sober support community for thousands. When COVID-19 forced the organization to close its gyms, they found

other ways to stay connected online.

CNN's Phil Mattingly gives us a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Keep moving, everyone. Let's try to get two or three more. You've got 20 seconds.

Nice job, Phil.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: What was your thought when coronavirus first started to spread and lockdowns really started to kick into gear?

SCOTT STRODE, CNN HERO: I just knew that that social isolation was going to be a big risk for relapse for a lot of people.

So, pretty quickly, we pivoted to offering virtual programs. We knew we had to keep people connected in this sort of uncertain and stressful time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three, two, one. And down for the sit-up.

STRODE: Just always lifts my heart to log into a Phoenix virtual class and meet somebody in recovery who's doing the workout in their basement somewhere in Tennessee, where we don't even have in-person programs, but they can come to the Phoenix anyway.

[15:55:12]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nice job, everyone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: To learn more about Scott's program and to see if Phil made it through the class, just head to CNNheroes.com.

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