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Fauci: Trump Ad Twisted My Words; White House Offers $1.8 Trillion Stimulus Offer; Biden Campaign Still Deflecting Court-Packing Questions; Senate Democrats Set To Question Judge Amy Coney Barrett; Former CDC Director Predicts More Death From Coronavirus In October; Airline Industry Needs Bailout From Stimulus Package. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired October 11, 2020 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Erica Hill in for Ana Cabrera. And we begin his hour with a CNN exclusive. The nation's top infectious disease expert, Dr. Anthony Fauci, expressing outrage after he was featured in a misleading ad for the Trump campaign without his knowledge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

President Trump is recovering from the coronavirus. And so is America. Together, we rose to meet the challenge. President Trump tackled the virus head-on as leaders should.

ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: I can't imagine that anybody could be doing more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Dr. Fauci telling CNN bluntly the words you heard in that ad were taken out of context. We'll have more on his response and what the White House is now saying.

But first, just a week after leaving the hospital with coronavirus, the president now scrambling to make up for lost time, scheduling three large rallies for this week, telling his supporters on twitter, he got a, "total and complete sign-off from White House doctors."

He then, though, took it a step further, claiming without evidence, he is now immune to the virus. Twitter flagging this tweet as misleading. Meantime, the Trump team is pushing for this week's debate to be reinstated.

Remember, of course, it was canceled because President Trump refused to debate Joe Biden virtually. Well now, the president's team says it should be held in person because he's been medically cleared.

We are also closely watching the stalled stimulus talks. Millions of Americans wonder if help is ever coming. Right now, there's bipartisan opposition to the president's $1.8 trillion offer. Democrats say it's too little. Republicans say it's too much.

And while they dig in their heels again, remember, millions of Americans are left hanging. So, what is the White House's next move?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY KUDLOW, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF ECONOMIC ADVISER: Look, I don't want to get into the specific legislative strategy, Jake, but I will say from the president's remarks late last week, he is happy on the key targeted areas that I mentioned. He would actually go beyond what some of the Democratic numbers are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: So White House may offer more money than Democrats even ask for? If you're confused, well, at this point, you are not alone. Let's get right to CNN's Jeremy Diamond who is live at the White House. So, Jeremy, I do want to begin with the CNN exclusive. Dr. Fauci not happy, clearly, with this new ad from the Trump campaign. What more do we know?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, no question. And look, I went through Fauci's initial interview where he makes these comments and it's very clear that he is talking about the government's coordinated response, the work of him and other of the government's public health experts, not President Trump himself as this ad makes it sound.

And so, Dr. Fauci telling CNN in the statement, "In my nearly five decades of public service, I have never publicly endorsed any political candidate. The comments attributed to me without my permission in the GOP campaign ad were taken out of context from a broad statement I made months ago about the efforts of federal public health officials."

The Trump campaign, for its part, they are also responding. The Trump campaign's communications director Tim Murtaugh saying, "These are Dr. Fauci's own words. The video is from a nationally broadcast television interview in which Dr. Fauci was praising the work of the Trump administration. The words spoken are accurate and directly from Dr. Fauci's mouth."

Now, it is clear from what we have seen that Dr. Fauci's words were taken out of context. What is also clear, Erica, is that the Trump campaign is clearly recognizing that not only do nearly 6 in 10 Americans disapprove of President Trump's handling of the coronavirus, but they also trust Dr. Fauci's word about the coronavirus far more than they trust the president's, which may be why they tried to use Dr. Fauci's image without his permission, of course, in this campaign ad.

HILL: Yes, that may be the reason. Jeremy, I also just want to get an update here on where we stand with the stimulus negotiations. So, the Senate GOP scoffing really at the president's offer to Nancy Pelosi of $1.8 trillion.

And then today there were some more confusing things, frankly coming from White House chief economic adviser Larry Kudlow. Do we know where things stand at this point? DIAMOND: Well, and before you even get to Larry Kudlow's comments, I

mean, earlier in the week you have President Trump saying a deal -- there was no deal going to be happening, negotiations were stopping. And then he made clear that he wanted a deal and increasing quite substantially the White House's offer to House Democrats for what they wanted. But today Larry Kudlow is now saying that, perhaps, this stimulus isn't really necessary. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: But you agree that a stimulus package needs to pass, there needs to be one, right, and you're hoping to do it in the next three weeks?

KUDLOW: I don't think, Jake, I mean, I don't want to parse, but I don't think the recovery is dependent on it. Look, we've had 11 million businesses --

TAPPER: That's not what the fed chair says.

KUDLOW: -- are reopening. We are learning to deal with the virus in a targeted, safe, prevented way.

TAPPER: No, we're not.

[17:05:00]

KUDLOW: So, it's not dependent. All I'm saying is some targeted assistance would go a long way (inaudible).

TAPPER: We're not learning to live with the virus, Larry. We just had four days in a row of more than 50,000 infections. The death rate is the highest in the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DIAMOND: Now, despite those comments from Larry Kudlow, the White House is pushing this deal. And in fact, Kudlow himself, despite saying that perhaps the economy could get along without stimulus, also said that President Trump might be willing to go further than the $1.8 trillion offer on the table now.

But really, Erica, it appears that this is going nowhere fast. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell has said that it is unlikely that a stimulus deal will be reached before the election. Erica?

HILL: Jeremy Diamond with the latest for us. Jeremy, thank you. Joining me now, CNN senior political analyst John Avlon and CNN political commentator and host of PBS' "Firing Line" Margaret Hoover.

So Margaret, first to you. I mean, this is pretty remarkable I think for Dr. Fauci, who, you know, at all times wants to be as apolitical and uninvolved in politics as possible. For him to put out this very clearly, strongly-worded statement and the White House or I should say the Trump campaign pushing back there, Margaret, what do you make of all this day? MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, you can understand,

frankly, both party's position. Dr. Fauci is one of the most trusted public health individuals and experts in this country. He is the one that even President Trump, if you recall several weeks ago, months ago, suggested, why does everybody like Dr. Fauci more than me, right? I mean, so --

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: A couple reasons for that.

HOOVER: -- this is somebody that people regardless of your political stripes, listen to and respect. You can understand why they would want to take his words out of context, not put a date on a political ad in order to make the point that Dr. Fauci says exactly what Donald Trump says, I'm doing the best job of -- who nobody could do any better than I'm doing.

AVLON: Right.

HOOVER: For somebody whose very job depends on having the confidence of people regardless of their political stripes, it's necessary for him to clarify his position in order for people to recognize that the Trump campaign is acting out of school here.

AVLON: Yeah. But, I mean, look, the reality is that they've been attacking and undercutting Dr. Fauci for months, in part out of spite because he's more trusted than the president and in part because he hasn't toed the party line because his focus is on the national interest and not Donald Trump's interest.

And now for them to hug him tight three weeks out of the election is contradictory, but it speaks to the desperation they feel and they hope no one notice. Of course, Dr. Fauci simply saying, look, do not use me or public health as a public football.

And as for anybody not knowing being able to do a better job, unfortunately, we know that virtually every country on earth has done a better job than the United States as 210,000 of our fellow Americans dead would tell us.

HILL: That's true. You know, I was really struck by this detail from some reporting of the "The New York Times" over the weekend about sort of what was happening with the president while he was at Walter Reed and that he was floating the idea of when he left, he would leave and maybe look a little bit frail but then open up his dress shirt to reveal a superman t-shirt.

We know this president wants to portray strength. I get it. Obviously, that's not what happened when we saw him leave Walter Reed. There was a choreographed event of another kind. But John, really, I mean, I actually had to stop while I was reading this and go back and make sure that I read it correctly.

AVLON: Yes, to make sure you haven't sucked into bizarro world. Look, that is, unfortunately, a normal occurrence. Obviously, this was an idea he was floating. Let's say he was half joking. It's still a breathtakingly bad idea to even jokingly float, again, against the back drop of over 210,000 Americans dead.

But it also speaks to the sort of cartoonish desire to show himself as the strong man, literally in this case. It is sort of dear leader meets "SNL" and it's absurd.

HILL: Yes. Maybe we'll just leave it at that. Moving onto the next topic. When we look at what we're now hearing about the debate, which of course the next debate was scheduled for Thursday night. It was canceled because the president refused to participate in a virtual debate.

Now they're saying he's ready. Margaret, how much does the president need this debate, do you think? Because the fact that they're now pushing back and saying we should do this, I think is telling.

HOOVER: Look, it was clear that the most important debate was always going to be that first debate because people start voting. And now more and more states are voting. By the third debate, even more states will be voting.

And in -- as we all know, unprecedented numbers of people are going to be voting earlier because of the pandemic that we're in. Donald Trump needs to be on a stage and fix and do any kind of clean-up possible with Joe Biden. And, frankly, he should have done that in this virtual town hall.

[17:09:58]

I mean, he really needs every opportunity he can to try to just stop the hemorrhaging because his closest supporters has all recognized and became defensive that that was a performance that has led to record low poll numbers.

AVLON: Yes.

HOOVER: And look, a month is a lifetime in politics. We all know this. Donald Trump, the same week as last week in the 2016 cycle, this is the same week, as the "Access Hollywood" tapes came out. Three and a half weeks is a long time for Donald Trump to try to turn it around or for any politician to turn it around but he needs it.

AVLON: Yes.

HOOVER: He needs the time on the stage with his opponent.

AVLON: Yes. The difference is that first debate was uniquely damaging. You know, legendary GOP campaign strategist Ed Rollins told me that nationwide for Senate polling they saw a massive hit three or four points across the board in the wake of the president's disastrous performance.

And, look, traditionally, you know, incumbent presidents have bad first debates. We saw that with Reagan in '84, frankly. We saw with Obama versus Romney. So the second debate actually is more important not only for the candidate who is behind, which is obvious, but often for the incumbent president to get their footing back and to shore up their support.

Reagan's famous joke against Mondale about his age where I won't let use my youth -- opponent's youth and inexperience against me, was in the second debate while he was doing clean-up. Now, Donald Trump has deprived himself of that opportunity at least for another week.

HILL: On the Biden front, both Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, the campaign, frankly, everyone involved, John, they are not going to get away from this question of court packing, and we know Republicans are going all in on it in messaging with notes, you know, campaign notes going out there saying we need to continue to hit Joe Biden hard on this. For the next 23 days, John, can he really continue to avoid answering that question?

AVLON: Look, Margaret and I are going to disagree on this and that's always fun but, I mean, here's what he's going to try --

HILL: I love a Hoovalon disagreement.

AVLON: Yes, the Hoovalon disagreement is a good thing. Look, what he's going to try to do is further refine the answer he's giving which is saying, look, I'm not going to take the bait and drive the cycle because it's a hypothetical question and we're facing real-time crisis.

I thought his answer was you'll find my answer after the election was not a good one. But what he was trying to say was, look, I'm going to leave my options open. They're trying to pack the court now by reversing all their positions after stealing the Merrick Garland seat and now applying a totally different standard. And he and Kamala Harris clearly are going to do everything they can not to get dragged into that because they know it's a game of gotcha. Margaret, counter point.

HOOVER: Look, I understand why he's doing it because, frankly, he's winning the Supreme Court argument right now with independents, moderates, women, all the people that Donald Trump needs to win over for having --

AVLON: While losing a seat.

HOOVER: But losing the seat. And why would they commit to escalation or to a continued escalation? That's just a losing argument politically. But as long as they continue to talk about the court and the Republicans hammer this court packing argument, it does make Democrats look worse because they would go on to destroy a higher and more long-standing norm.

It is -- there's a moral relativism here where, you know, what you think is a matter of sort of where you sit in your perspective, but the fact is, there has been a continued ratcheting up and escalation in the fight over the courts for the last 30 years.

And, you know, if Republicans pushed Amy Coney Barrett through, there's actually no reason to expect that Democrats won't try to stack the Supreme Court. And that's what we should just recognize that we're looking at.

AVLON: Except that Joe Biden's am institutionalist and probably would rather not do that. But the progressive wing and folks are saying, look, you have flip-flopped on fundamental issues. You have done anything in pursuit of power and that's leads people to say look, we need to fight fire with fire. That's bad for the institution. That's not good for the country, but that's where we are because of what Mitch McConnell and Trump have decided to do.

HILL: Margaret Hoover and John Avalon, great to see you both. Thank you.

HOOVER: Thanks Erica.

AVLON: Thanks Erica. Be good.

HILL: Now to the president's health. His physician officially clearing him to leave isolation, saying he no longer poses a transmission risk to others. Dr. Conley writing, "Now at day 10 from symptom onset, fever-free for well over 24 hours and all symptoms approved, the assortment of advanced diagnostic tests obtained revealed there is no longer evidence of actively replicating virus."

Joining me now is CNN Medical Analyst, Professor of Medicine at George Washington University, Dr. Jonathan Reiner, who also spent eight years advising the Bush White House medical unit.

So Dr. Reiner, based on this information that we have from the president's physician, are you confident that it is safe for the president to be out there on the road, to be traveling with those around his campaign, his Secret Service agents, holding rallies, and also if it's safe for him from a health perspective, not just those around him?

JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: It's not clear at all. So, let's start with the president's health personally. It's going to be 90 degrees in Sanford, Florida tomorrow. It was 70 degrees in Washington yesterday when he barely gave 18 minutes of remarks.

[17:14:58]

It's a lot to stand for, you know, his usual rally lengths in the heat, you know, barely two weeks after acquiring COVID-19. I think it's foolish for him to do it. It's going to be hard for him to do it and it might give him a big setback.

We don't really know whether he is still infectious. The CDC, you know, has recommended that folks who have had a severe case of COVID actually isolate for 20 days because these severe cases can have viral shedding for up to about 20 days.

I think it would be safer for the president's team if he waited a few days before doing this, but obviously he's not going to do that. And as for the rally attenders, Florida has a positivity rate of 10 percent now. That's twice the national average. It's 10 times higher than it was in D.C. and we already saw a super spreader event at one of his events in D.C. I think it's really insane to attend a rally with the president in Florida now with so much virus in the community.

HILL: The president also tweeted that he's immune now. Can you just give us a reality check on that? Twitter labeled that as misleading. What do we actually know about possible immunity?

REINER: Well, most patients we think, if not all patients, will obtain some degree of at least temporary immunity or resistance to further infection for a period of time. The exact length is not completely clear. There have been really only a handful of people with documented reinfection rates.

But what's his point about his, you know, "immunity" is first of all, we don't know. We haven't seen his antibody levels, et cetera. But even if he was immune, that's not some super power. I think it's irrelevant whether he is immuned. I'm more concerned about the president shedding virus to his staff members and his security people and anyone else he might encounter.

HILL: Dr. Jonathan Reiner, always good to talk with you. Thank you.

REINER: My pleasure.

HILL: Just 23 days to go now until the election. Already at least 7 million ballots have been cast. Many more expected amid the pandemic. So, just what can we expect to know on election night? When could we have a clear winner? That's next. You're live in the "CNN Newsroom."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:20:00]

HILL: There is a good chance many of you will be on the edge of your seat come election night. There's also a good chance we won't know on November 3rd who won, and that's in part record number of mail-in ballots. First, some more insight on what we can expect. CNN's Fareed Zakaria is someone who knows a thing or two about drawn out elections. Al Gore, former vice president, of course, the Democratic presidential nominee in 2000.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AL GORE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: On election night, there may be what's called a red mirage. The people who voted on the day of the election may be more in Trump's favor and then a blue shift as the mail-in ballots are counted. Again, more of them this time than ever before, for reasons everybody understands.

We have to be patient and let the votes be counted. And when he says we may not know the result on election night, I thought to myself, well, I think that's actually happened before. It was a 36-day delay in 2000.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Yes, tough to forget that one. I'm joined now by CNN's Fareed Zakaria. Fareed's new book is "Ten Lessons for a Post-Pandemic World." He is also the host of tonight's "CNN Special How the World Sees America."

Fareed, good to see you tonight. Considering just how aggressively President Trump has attacked not only mail-in voting but election integrity, I'm curious, what are you expecting November 3rd?

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST: Well, I think that there is some possible good news. If people go in and vote and don't get complacent and if they make sure that their mail-in ballots are marked correctly, I think you may end up with a fairly decisive outcome.

And remember, in some of these states, Erica, the ballots, the mail-in ballots are counted first. So, on election night, you will get a total that includes the in-person voting that day plus the mail-in ballots.

So, we will be able to look at that and say, you know, there may be some states where the mail-in ballots are coming in later, but we already know what it's going to look like once those ballots are counted because in some states the mail-in ballots are counted early.

So, if you think about that, if you look at the leads that Biden has right now, there is a scenario in which much of our worrying and fretting is unnecessary because there seems to be, I mean, Biden has an eight-point lead in the average poll.

If you have a closer victory, a closer situation, I think it's going to be very messy because Donald Trump has made it absolutely clear. To put it very simply, he is going to play dirty. He is going to contest everything. He is going to question everything. It's all going to end up in courts. And that, I think, will make 2000 look like a picnic.

HILL: Yes, it just might, you're right. As I mentioned, tonight you have a new special that takes a very close look at how the world sees us and I just want to play a little preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZAKARIA (voice-over): Now the Queen was holding a reception for NATO leaders at Buckingham Palace. The mood grew edgy as everyone waited. Donald Trump was late.

[17:24:53]

One group of leaders was enjoying itself. Canada's Justin Trudeau, Boris Johnson, Emmanuel Macron, Princess Anne and Mark Rutte, the Dutch prime minister. They were caught in a hot mic moment, making fun of the American president.

BORIS JOHNSON, PRIME MINISTER OF THE UNITED KINGDOM: Is that why you were late?

JUSTIN TRUDEAU, PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA: He was late because he takes a 40-minute press conference.

I've watched his team's jaws just drop to the floor.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: They were essentially laughing at the U.S. president there. That's remarkable.

ZAKARIA (voice-over): The president of the United States, the most powerful country in the world, being mocked by some of its own staunchest allies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: It is really something when you, you know, take us back and we look at that moment again right there. But it's not the only moment, I know, that you're looking at in this special tonight, Fareed.

ZAKARIA: No, in fact, it's -- we tried to do a kind of history of American supremacy, if you will. We start with the end of the cold war with the fall of the Berlin Wall, where the United States dominant around the world. And we talk about how the Iraq war, the global financial crisis, all of these things dented American supremacy.

But Trump, it's a whole different scale because it's not a question of the United States making mistakes in its engagement with the world, it's about America fundamentally withdrawing from the world, looking suspiciously at a 70-year foreign policy that has been about engagement.

And most importantly, being most distrustful of our closest allies, of the countries that have sent their soldiers to bleed and die for American-led wars for 70 years. That's what Donald Trump has done. He has cast doubt on the core relationships of American alliances and he's palled around with America's adversaries, Russia's Putin, North Korea's Kim Jong-un, with whom he admits that he has fallen in love.

I mean, this is not me constructing this. It's a very strange moment. And I talk about it in the special, the special draws on my book. And in my book I point out that we've never had a situation before where the world has not just -- it doesn't fear America. It doesn't envy America. It's taking pity on America. That feeling, that emotion of pity is something new in the world's reaction and relationship to the United States.

HILL: Yes. And Fareed, really looking forward to it tonight. Thanks for taking time to join us this afternoon.

ZAKARIA: Pleasure.

HILL: And again, the special tonight "How the World Sees America." You can see it at 9:00 right here on CNN.

In less than 24 hours, Supreme Court nominee Amy Coney Barrett will be grilled by Senate Democrats, including someone on the Democratic ticket, Senator Kamala Harris.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:30:00]

HILL: This just in. Republican Senator Mike Lee of Utah tells CNN he is symptom free after being diagnosed with coronavirus just over a week ago. You'll recall Lee was among the guest at the Rose Garden ceremony for Supreme Court nominee Amy Coney Barrett, an event be Dr. Fauci calls a super-spreader.

Lee's office says the final decision on whether he will attend tomorrow's Supreme Court confirmation hearing in person will be made in the morning. CNN congressional reporter Lauren Fox is on Capitol Hill. So, Lauren, what more are you learning?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Well, remember, this is key whether or not Lee will attend this hearing, not just for the first three days, but the most critical part is whether or not he will attend on Thursday. That is because Senator Mike Lee and Thom Tillis, if you remember, both tested positive for coronavirus more than a week ago now.

But in order to have a quorum for that crucial vote on Thursday, Erica, Senator Lindsey Graham, the chairman of the committee, cannot be missing both Tillis and Lee. Now, Tillis has said his intention is to return to vote in person on Thursday.

But, it of course, is just part of the reason that coronavirus is looming so large over these hearings. It's critical that Lindsey Graham have the Republican senators he needs to be there in order to advance this nomination in a timely manner so that they can approve it before the election.

Now, this kicks off what will be Democrats' first opportunity to really question and grill Amy Coney Barrett. Now, we expect that tomorrow is going to be lawmakers just giving their opening statement that includes the chairman, Lindsey Graham, and top Democrat on the committee, Dianne Feinstein.

Then every senator on the committee will have 10 minutes for their opening statements. That will be followed by Amy Coney Barrett's introduction, her swearing-in, and then she will give an opening statement, which CNN has obtained.

And I want to read you part of her statement. She says, "There is a tendency in our profession to treat the practice of law as all- consuming while losing sight of everything else, but that makes for a shallow and unfulfilling life. I worked hard as a lawyer and a professor. I owed that to my clients, my students and myself. But I never let the law define my identity or crowd out the rest of my life."

Now, Erica, the next few days are going to look so different than what we've seen in past Supreme Court nomination hearings. That's because each of these lawmakers, they're going to be spaced out at least six feet apart. You're going to see them with, you know, personal protective equipment, masks over their faces in a way that you may not be used to.

[17:34:59]

You'll also see fewer reporters on the floor as well as no public members who are going to just be sitting in there to watch this hearing, and that is so different from what we've seen in these past confirmation hearings.

HILL: Yes, it certainly is. Lauren Fox, appreciate the reporting. Thank you.

CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Elliot Williams joins me now. You also served as judiciary committee counsel to Senator Schumer, who is requesting recusals as we know for Amy Coney Barrett. Do you think that's going anywhere? And on top of that, what are you watching for tomorrow?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Sure, excellent. So look, Erica, thanks for that question. What the law calls for and the Supreme Court's own internal guidance calls for is that whenever a federal judge's impartiality might "reasonably be in questioned," they ought to recuse themselves.

Now, that's tricky because the word reasonably leaves a lot of wiggle room. And if you recall from 2004, Judge Antonin Scalia, Judge Barrett's mentor, did not recuse from a case where, if you remember, he had gone duck hunting with Dick Cheney saying that, look, my impartiality is not questioned here. I could have gone hunting with someone (inaudible).

At the end of the day, here are the questions she needs to answer on this point. Number one, she should be pressed about whether she and the president have discussed any matters with respect to the Affordable Care Act because this is at the heart of what Senator Schumer was talking about here.

Number two, senators should question her beyond this answer sheet -- she's likely give -- well, I'll just follow the law on recusal. And number three, she should articulate and (inaudible) what she gets on the court the reasons why she's choosing not to recuse.

So, it's not a frivolous point that Senator Schumer has made and it's very important that this get out there.

HILL: I mean, just to press you once more on that though, do you think that we will get a direct answer because we know this has been brought up by senators who have met with Amy Coney Barrett, that they have asked her about recusal and it doesn't sound like there are direct answers being given.

WILLIAMS: Honestly, Erica, over the last 20 or 30 years, Supreme Court justices never give direct answers on just about anything. What they say, as I hinted at before is -- no, it's true. I will follow the law if the constitution is my guide, and it's the same tired answer over and over again. So, no, I don't think she answers the question.

Look, and to be clear, the president has been quite aggressive on this Affordable Care Act point where he has said, he is putting judges on the court for the purpose of overturning the Affordable Care Act.

So, it's not -- and she has been critical about the ACA as well. So it's not an unreasonable ask for her to say whether she has a conflict of interest with respect to this one particular issue. HILL: In terms of the Supreme Court, as I'm sure you've seen, Joe

Biden is getting asked, and so is Kamala Harris and anybody from the campaign over and over again, about packing the court. I just want to play one of the most recent responses to that question.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: You'll know my opinion on court packing when the election is over. The moment I answer that question, the headline in every one of your papers will be about that. Other than, other than focusing on what's happening now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Look, he's not wrong that an answer would get a lot of attention, but his non-answer is also getting a lot of attention. And we know that this is going to continue to be asked. I mean, does that answer still fly at this point?

WILLIAMS: Yes. So, it's interesting. There's a couple of things going on here. Number one, and you can agree with this as a reporter, it is important for presidential candidates to be truthful and candid about issues that are important to the American people, full stop. We should agree with that and demand that of every candidate for office.

Now, let's get to the bottom of the truth on court-packing. And Mitch McConnell, the Senate Majority Leader right now, held seats open for years when President Obama was president. Over the course of those years, Obama only named 52 appeals court judges to the court. That's the same number President Trump has had now.

McConnell laughed about this issue on Sean Hannity saying look, "This was my most important career decision since becoming a senator." So, this whole question of what constitutes "packing the court" and only fixating on Biden's non-answer or answer isn't really the whole story because the president and the senate majority leader have been quite aggressive on this one.

Holding open a Supreme Court nomination for 263 days I think and not even giving Merrick Garland a hearing. So, look, McConnell and the president have used the legal tools in their arsenal over the course of these last several years.

Biden's leaving open the question of a perfectly legal response to this as to how to proceed, and so -- and last point, I think if this is a question of how candid a candidate is being on a major legal issue, the president has not answered definitively as to whether he would accept a peaceful transfer of power if he lost his election.

So, you know, there's a lot going on here. I mean, I think it's silly season with respect to this presidential campaign, but at the end of the day, there are far bigger issues right now than whether Joe Biden is being candid or not as this question of court expansion or reforming the size of the Supreme Court.

[17:40:06] HILL: We're going to have to leave it there, although, I do appreciate, as you said, we've got to keep asking the questions because what we need is answers across the board. Elliot, good to see you. Thank you.

President Trump says the coronavirus is going away. It's not the first time he said it, either. The former director of the CDC, though, says not only is that not true, but he warns many more Americans have actually died than have actually been reported. More on his comments next. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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HILL: Former director of the CDC, Dr. Tom Frieden, warning this weekend it is "inevitable" another 20,000 Americans will die from coronavirus by the end of this month. Let that sit in for a minute. Frieden also says the true number of U.S. coronavirus deaths is actually much more than the reported 214,000. He said he believes it's actually well over 250,000.

[17:45:05]

Now, all of this comes as doctors fear that we are already seeing signs of that dreaded second wave. For the first time since August, the U.S. has reported four consecutive days of more than 50,000 new daily coronavirus cases. CNN's Evan McMorris-Santoro is in New York City where there has also been an uptick, Evan.

EVAN MCMORRIS-SANTORO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Erica. City and state leaders here have been trying to paint a rosy picture of things for months now. And it's easy to see why. Let me show you this chart that shows how things looked in the summer.

We had a nice, steady, you know, the numbers came way down from April when it was really, really bad. It was a nice, steady summer. As you can see, it started to go back up again down at the end of September. And now we're in a situation where the statewide infection rate is below 1 percent, but there are areas in the state now where that number has risen back up again to six times that figure, to around 6 percent.

Now, the governor and local leaders are attributing that rise to areas where people are not obeying mask rules and are congregating in large religious gatherings, often inside. They've rushed to put new restrictions in place to lock those places back down, closing schools, closing businesses, restricting that religious -- those religious ceremonies.

But no one knows what's going to happen with that yet. We're all closely, closely watching that. But it's not just us who should be closely watching numbers like that. Let me show you another map, which is the entire nation and those cases that are rising.

As you can see from that map, 30 states are now showing cases on the rise. Only one shows it in decline. So, even though that map in New York, the (inaudible) here in New York is about that numbers slightly going up. The concern that we're feeling in the city right now as we think back to how things were back in the spring is a concern that people, when they look at that other map should be having in a lot of the country. Erica?

HILL: Evan McMorris-Santoro, Evan, thank you. Coming up, how the stalled stimulus talks are sending the already battered airline industry into a tailspin.

But first, more Americans have actually started growing their own food since the start of the pandemic. In this week's "Impact Your World" a nonprofit shares seeds, compost and knowledge with a Milwaukee neighborhood.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were under quarantine so it was hard for us to get to the store. We didn't really feel safe going out.

That really helped the decision-making of grow it in your backyard. When I first heard about Victory Gardens, they had a seed give away at the beginning of the season that gave away these big bags that you can go and sift your own compost, picking the greens and seeing a tomato sprout and just knowing that I started literally from nothing. It started from my son sifting compost and now we're growing okra and kale and lettuce. We did that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Victory Garden Initiative is a non-profit based in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Anywhere you can put a garden, we will build one and provide education, seeds, compost, all the resources that we can, as well as mentorship. We've had many more families reach out to us this year than in previous years. We've now built over 5,000 garden beds across Milwaukee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm already contemplating on next year. I feel like it's brought our family closer together. It's empowered us. Financially, we're not going back and forth to the stores anymore. And it's therapeutic for me, like you're watching life happen.

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[17:50:00]

HILL: The airline industry right now on the verge of a tailspin due to the economic crisis worsened by a pandemic that has many Americans, frankly, afraid to get on a plane. And in many cases, unable to afford plane tickets even if they were comfortable with it.

As talks between the White House and Congress breakdown, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says there will be no airline aid without a broader stimulus package. Airline workers though say they need relief now. CNN's Pete Muntean has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BREAUNNA ROSS, FURLOUGHED AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT ATTENDANT: As all of you know, the airline industry has been impacted greatly by this global pandemic.

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When flight attendant Breauna Ross addressed the passengers of her American Airlines flight, she didn't expect to leave them with a tearful good-bye.

ROSS: For myself and one other crew member on our flight today, this means we'll be furloughed October 31st. And unfortunately, this was my last working flight before that day comes.

MUNTEAN (voice-over): Airlines say they will recall Ross and the roughly 50,000 workers they cut last week but only if they get $25 billion in a new stimulus bill.

ROSS: It will see numbers on TV but we are real people that are really struggling right now.

MUNTEAN (voice-over): Ross says she's living on savings from her last few months on the job. Just furloughed workers say new federal help is their best hope -- 8,000 flight attendants at American Airlines alone are now looking for jobs.

ALLIE MALIS, FURLOUGHED AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT ATTENDANT: It's been a roller coaster. We've been high, we've been low. We've been on this verge of making this happen for so long, and then for it to all just fall apart.

MUNTEAN (voice-over): In a new letter, airline unions are urging Congress to pass a standalone stimulus for airlines. President Trump tweeted his support, but House leaders stress the bill failed in the Senate. Airline unions say lawmakers must end the stimulus standoff with workers caught in the middle.

[17:55:05]

SARA NELSON, PRESIDENT, ASSOCIATION OF FLIGHT ATTENDADNS: These are people who have been on the front lines since the beginning of this virus. Fighting is cruel and it's got to be reversed.

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HILL: CNN's Pete Muntean reporting. Coming up, a CNN exclusive, Dr. Anthony Fauci expressing his outrage after being featured without his consent in an ad for the Trump campaign.

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