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COVID-19 Cases Rise as Trump Promotes Herd Immunity; NBC Announces Trump Town Hall Tomorrow Night; Interview with Florida State AARP Director Jeff Johnson. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired October 14, 2020 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: In total, more than 80 schools across the state are currently experiencing outbreaks. An emergency order went into effect last week requiring all K through 12 schools to report new cases within 24 hours.

Governor Gretchen Whitmer, reminding residents that if, quote, "We drop our guard, we're going to see a community spread, and we're already seeing that a bit."

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: It is the top of the hour, I'm Brianna Keilar. And we are seeing a disturbing trend emerging from coast to coast. No states are trending in the right direction on coronavirus infections, zero.

As 36 states report surges of new cases, the nation has recorded nearly 8 million total infections at this point, and more than 216,000 people in this country have lost their lives to coronavirus. Hospitalizations are also climbing nationwide, as are the percentages of people testing positive.

And despite this, the president is describing a rosy state of play that simply doesn't exist.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We'll beat this virus, and we'll eradicate this pestilence and all of the things that happened to our country, our lives and our planet. Our aggressive and early action saved up to 2 million lives. If you look at the original numbers, it was projected that 2.2 million lives. We're at 210,000. We've reduced the fatality rate 85 percent since April.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Projected at 2.2 million if the country did absolutely nothing.

And as President Trump delivers this false picture of the pandemic in America, he along with senior White House officials are embracing the controversial theory of herd immunity, which is essentially doing nothing. In short, this is a proposal to let this fatal virus spread naturally across the country until the majority of Americans have been infected.

And it's wildly controversial, widely disputed and deemed, quote, "deadly and unethical" and mass murder by health experts. And yet the president openly pushes it in front of thousands of his supporters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Who has had it here? Who's had it? Yes, a lot of people, a lot of people. You're the people I want to say hello to because you are right now immune.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Dr. Chris Pernell is a public health physician in Newark, New Jersey, and she's joining us now. So, Dr. Pernell, there's a recent study that has shown that only 10 percent of Americans have been infected. This is far fewer than would need to be infected in order for there to be protections in numbers, right?

And this has brought with it more than 200,000 deaths -- 10 percent, 200,000 dead. So with those numbers in mind, what would it take to achieve herd immunity in the U.S.?

CHRIS PERNELL, PUBLIC HEALTH PHYSICIAN: Brianna, it's just not fathomable. To achieve herd immunity, we're talking about 60 to 80 percent of a population having been exposed or infected with coronavirus. And if we see the same mortality rates, that could be 2 million Americans dead. And that's just not something that we could tolerate.

We have over 215,000 Americans dead, and that toll has been staggering. So to assume or to even estimate or to figure out whether or not herd immunity is a viable solution is a nonstarter, it's a nonstarter for all of us in the public health community.

KEILAR: The World Health Organization announced today that most transmission that we're seeing of this virus is still happening within households, right? So it's still happening from person to person under the same roof. With that in mind, you know, how do we protect ourselves?

PERNELL: I know we're getting tired. Look, we're beleaguered, we have pandemic fatigue. But we have to button down. And when I say we have to button down, we have to do those staple public health measures and infection prevention guidelines that keep us safe. We have to wear our masks. That is a guarantee of the floor of what we need to do.

In addition to wearing our mask, we have to be physically distanced, staying at least six feet apart from others, and to avoid crowded spaces. We should be washing our hands, we should not be going to events that are indoor and cramped. And we just have to keep our emotional and our mental wits about us so that we can get through this difficult period. KEILAR: There's this new investigation -- I wonder if you've heard

about it -- it's under way at Brigham Young University in Idaho, and it reveals that students are actually, on purpose, contracting COVID- 19 so that they can sell their plasma that would have antibodies in it for a profit. What would your message be to people who are considering this?

PERNELL: Simple, do not do it, just stop. That's reckless behavior. Look, I was talking to a friend earlier this week who lost her husband, who was a police officer, to coronavirus. That level of grief, that level of pain? No one should willfully risk that. No one should risk that for themselves, and no one should risk that for their family.

[14:05:01]

But I'm led to question what is it in the culture, what is it in the broader culture that allows people to entertain such reckless behaviors? And this is why I said previously that the president was a threat to public health.

But the level of disinformation and even misinformation that's been coming out of this administration, I'm just really concerned. I'm concerned whether or not the public truly trusts when public health guidelines come out. We have to do all that we can to emphasize, this is no laughing matter. And this is not something we just can say don't be afraid of, this is something that we have to do what we know works.

KEILAR: Very well spoken on that. Dr. Pernell, thank you so much for being with us again.

PERNELL: Thank you.

KEILAR: Tomorrow night was supposed to be the second presidential debate, but the president's COVID-19 diagnosis scrapped that plan and it sparked a messy debate over a virtual forum. He refused to do it virtually, and that led to the cancellation of the debate.

Well now, we will still see both President Trump and Joe Biden in primetime on Thursday, but they're going to be on separate channels. The candidates will be joining dueling network television town halls.

With me now is Brian Stelter, our CNN chief media correspondent and anchor of "RELIABLE SOURCES," and CNN chief political analyst Gloria Borger as well, with us.

It is great to see you both. Brian, this original debate, it was decided by an independent commission. Is NBC rewarding Trump for refusing to debate by not only holding this, but holding it at the same time that Biden has a similar event?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Right. Short answer is yes, the Biden town hall was scheduled first, it was announced last week. The time slot, 8:00 p.m., was scheduled last Sunday. NBC was in talks with the Trump campaign all the way up until this morning, when they announced an 8:00 p.m. town hall with the president. Now, I understand the president probably wants a head-to-head match-

up, he probably thinks he'll win this ratings war. But there are things in life bigger than ratings and this is one of them. This is a very bad look for NBC.

But you know, NBC says they're all about parity. Biden had a town hall at 8:00 p.m. last week, so Trump gets a town hall at 8:00 p.m. this week. Already, Brianna, some NBC entertainment stars are speaking out against the network, saying this town hall needs to be rescheduled. But I see no indication that NBC or ABC are going to reschedule.

KEILAR: Gloria, I wonder what you think about all of this because we do know that when it came to -- when it comes to debates -- right? -- the moderators are not supposed to fact-check. We do see, more often in these kinds of events, these down halls, that an anchor might weigh in with a fact-check --

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Sure.

KEILAR: -- more so than you know they would do in a debate. So as you're sort of measuring and weighing the, I guess, pros and cons of this, what do you think about this whole matchup?

BORGER: Well, first of all, in a town hall, particularly this close to an election, I think it's just fine for a moderator to ask follow- up questions. I think that's what moderators do in town halls, and many times they're clarifying and informative.

I think that we -- what we should have seen -- and by the way, all of this goes back to Donald Trump because he should have participated in a virtual debate --

STELTER: Yes.

BORGER: -- that would have been just fine. He wasn't going to be talking into his computer, as he said, he would be talking into a camera, just like I am talking to you with probably a really good, big screen in front of him.

But you know, I think that what we should have -- and maybe the networks can figure out a way to do this. If you have to do it separately, do one in one hour and one in the next, figure it out so that people can see both. It's really very sad that you aren't going to be able to see them both participate together, but I think, you know, we ought to try and do that as closely as we possibly can.

But again, this is Donald Trump's fault.

STELTER: It seems like a petty network rivalry thing also but --

BORGER: Yes.

STELTER: -- to your point, Brianna, a moderator, Savannah Guthrie, will have a big chance here to question Trump. Trump has done a lot of phone calls to Fox, he's talked to a lot of his friends on TV and radio but he hasn't actually been interviewed by any real interviewer since coming down with coronavirus. So it is a big moment for Savannah Guthrie, to interview Trump tomorrow night.

KEILAR: Yes. And I guess I should have been more exact, to say a follow-up fact-check, right? I think that's something --

BORGER: Yes.

STELTER: Right.

KEILAR: -- right? I think that's something we see more in town halls than we might see in a debate.

STELTER: Right.

KEILAR: So, OK, you guys -- yes, Gloria?

BORGER: No, I was going to say, yes, absolutely. And if Trump or Biden says something that's wrong, maybe the moderator in a town hall format can say, well, it's my understanding that X,Y and Z, and maybe that's what the person is asking about.

But the role is really not so much as a fact-checker, as I think it is to sort of just get the information out there in real time.

KEILAR: All right, both of you, thank you so much. Stay with me, if you will, I also want to ask you about yet another Trump effort to dig up some dirt on a political opponent that has ended in failure, and this one that involves his claims about Obama administration officials requesting the identities of redacted names on intelligence documents. This is the so-called unmasking that is actually common and a legal practice.

[14:10:04]

The "Washington Post" reports an investigation launched by Attorney General William Barr found no evidence of wrongdoing, though here is how Trump and Fox peddled this BS conspiracy for years.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The Obama campaign spied on our campaign, and they've been caught, all right? And now let's see what happens to them. But they have been caught, they've been caught red-handed. It's probably treason.

Obamagate, it's been going on for a long time.

Unmasking is a massive -- it's a massive thing, it's -- I just got a list, it's -- who can believe a thing like this?

This was all Obama, this was all Biden. These people were corrupt, the whole thing was corrupt. And we caught them, we caught them. It gets really sad, he was one of the unmaskers meaning he knew everything about it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE; Newly declassified documents identifying more than a dozen Obama administration officials involved in the unmasking of Michael Flynn. And at the top of that list? former Vice President Joe Biden.

SEAN HANNITY, FOX HOST: it was Joe unmasking (ph) himself, and Biden might want to start thinking about getting his story straight if he's capable.

TUCKER CARLSON, FOX HOST: They know Michael Flynn is not a dangerous criminal. If he was a dangerous criminal, they'd be working to free him from jail. No, they wanted Flynn crushed purely because he happened to be in the way of the power they seek.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: And again, the "Washington Post" says the Justice Department found no evidence of wrongdoing, they filed no charges against anyone, they didn't even produce a public report.

Gloria, of course you know, we've seen stuff like this before, whether it is the Voter Commission or it's an investigation into the Clinton Foundation or it has something to do with Jim Comey. In the end, nothing is found. And yet it doesn't mean the damage isn't done. This information is repeated --

BORGER: Sure.

KEILAR: -- repeated, repeated, and it sticks in people's brains. And it's not going away even though this has gone up in a puff of smoke.

BORGER: Yes. No, it's not going away because the president today, in a television interview, kept saying it's ridiculous, I think it's a disgrace. He thinks there should have been indictments, he's talking about this issue and also another report investigating the Obama administration.

I cannot emphasize enough that what these people were doing was doing their jobs. They're reading intelligence information. And in order to understand it, many times -- it happens thousands of times a year -- you need to figure out the name of the person who was having the conversation about, say, the Russian ambassador or with the Russian ambassador. And so what you do at that very high level is you unmask the name. Then you understand the intelligence.

Now, I don't understand what the president's talking about here. These people are doing their jobs, and that's why there were no indictments.

My question is, why isn't this report made public?

KEILAR: It's a very good question. And Brian, you wrote a whole book called "Hoax," and it's about this, it's about the way Trump and Fox distorts the truth --

STELTER: Yes.

KEILAR: -- this is their strategy: repeat, repeat, repeat and make it stick even if it's wrong.

(CROSSTALK) STELTER: And something (ph) -- this is a great example. This is why

it's so hard for us to talk to our friends and neighbors and family members, it's because Fox creates this fantasyland. Trump and Fox together create these fantasylands where you're told to stay tuned and to stay mad, where stories become scandalized -- both by the opinion talk show hosts and by the news programs as well.

They are mountains -- they are molehills turned into mountains. And of course what ends up happening is these follow-ups get buried. I wish I could tell you, Brianna, that Fox viewers are going to look around and say, hey, whatever happened to that so-called scandal about unmasking? But sadly, no, what happens is there's a new scandal instead, a new invention against Joe Biden, a new invention about Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton. It's on to the next scandal. Stay tuned and stay mad.

There are real journalists at Fox. Some have left because of this nonsense in recent years, and the ones who are still there, they are disgusted by the behavior by their pro-Trump opinion colleagues. But sadly, those news folks, they don't have the power. It's the unmasking propagandists who have the power in right-wing media right now.

KEILAR: Indeed. All right, Brian Stelter, Gloria Border, thank you so much --

BORGER: Sure.

KEILAR: -- to both of you.

STELTER: Thanks.

KEILAR: President Trump recently claimed seniors are his favorite people, but now he appears to be mocking them and Joe Biden in a tweet.

Plus, Supreme Court nominee Amy Coney Barrett on Capitol Hill for a final day of questioning, we are going to discuss her answers -- or really a lack of them -- on issues like health care and elections.

[14:14:42]

And later, new research shows your blood type can impact how sick you might get from COVID-19.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: The Trump campaign was trying to win over senior voters this week. The president, sending this message from the White House lawn.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: To my favorite people in the world, the seniors -- I'm a senior, I know you don't know that, nobody knows that. Maybe you don't have to tell them, but I'm a senior.

We're taking care of our seniors. You're not vulnerable, but they like to say the vulnerable. But you're the least vulnerable. But for this one thing, you are vulnerable, and so am I. But I want you to get the same care that I got.

You're going to get it free, no charge. And we're going to get it to you soon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: But last night, the president did himself no favors with that demographic when he suggested his opponent, Joe Biden, should be admitted to a nursing home in a tweet showing senior citizens in wheelchairs with Biden's head superimposed over one of the residents.

With me now is Jeff Johnson, he is the Florida State director of the AARP. You know, I just -- I wonder, what is your reaction to the president's tweet, to making fun of a candidate by associating him with elderly people?

[14:20:16]

JEFF JOHNSON, FLORIDA STATE DIRECTOR, AARP: So I'm not going to react to a particular tweet, but what I would say is that I think campaigns on both sides of the aisle really need to pay attention to the fact that 60 percent of those who cast a ballot in Florida elections or more are 50 and over, and so their issues are ones that really need to be top of mind and at the forefront of the campaigns at the presidential level and at every level beneath it.

KEILAR: I wonder, you know, look, we have two candidates and they're both senior citizens, right? They're both up in years. This isn't something you have normally seen in recent decades. How does -- I guess, how does rhetoric about the elderly play with older voters and what do older voters expect about how they are treated, how they are discussed?

JOHNSON: I think that of course the older electorate, the 50-plus voter and even the 65-plus voter in Florida is a very diverse demographic, so it crosses party lines, crosses all other demographic lines as well.

And I think that what brings them all together is a real interest in what the candidates want to say to them about social security -- because that's a critical part of their retirement security -- about Medicare, about the high cost of prescription drugs and the cost of health care generally, and about the coronavirus and how we as a nation are going to respond.

KEILAR: And what do they want to know? Like what are the things that you're hearing from older constituents who have concerns about coronavirus? For instance we're hearing the president make promises about a COVID treatment. You know, we are seeing two candidates who are trying to pitch that they are the ones to trust on the coronavirus. What are older voters saying?

JOHNSON: What they're saying is that they very much want to hear what both candidates have to say about what the future of our response to this is. So from the very beginning of this pandemic, what -- the most

consistent message practically (ph) that public health officials have put out have been that the 65-plus demographic is uniquely susceptible to the worst that this disease brings, and so we have had a number of measures, kind of across the political spectrum, of how do we protect those who are most at risk from this virus. I think the president's video that you just played sounded like he spoke to some of that as well.

So whether they are listening to President Trump or former Vice President Biden, what they want to hear is, so what is the plan? What is the plan to ensure that the 65-plus are protected from this virus in the short run as well as what are the long-term plans, whether it be for new treatments or for vaccines, and how does that get their lives back to a semblance of what they were before?

I think in Florida, one of the major concerns that we've seen in other states as well has been the impact of this virus especially in long- term care facilities. While the state of Florida has done a lot of things really well in responding to that virus, at the same time, it continues to be the case that 40 percent of those who have died in Florida from the coronavirus have been residents or staff in long-term care facilities. And that's a really small part of our population, less than two percent of our population is connected to long-term care facilities.

So there's a real interest in hearing from candidates on both sides of the aisle about what their plans are to protect those facilities and ensure that this doesn't happen again, while also helping the community as a whole get past this pandemic.

KEILAR: And, Jeff, I know, you know, you don't want to wade into politics, you won't comment on the tweet. But just a practice, a general practice of making fun of elderly Americans, is that smart politics?

JOHNSON: I'm not going to respond specifically to the tweet. I think generally speaking, you would expect that candidates will always be reaching out to the folks that they hope to attract the vote of. This is an electorate that is very much led by the 50-plus voter, and our expectation is that candidates on both sides of the aisle are going to look for ways that they can appeal to that audience of 50-plue voters in ways that make them feel comfortable in casting their ballot for them.

KEILAR: All right. Jeff Johnson with the AARP in Florida, we really appreciate it.

And there is another member of Congress that has just announced he tested positive for coronavirus, House Republican Bill Huizenga, tweeting that he got the positive result right before he was scheduled to appear with Vice President Pence in Michigan.

[14:24:44]

And what House Speaker Nancy Pelosi refused to answer in a contentious interview with our Wolf Blitzer.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: President Trump's Supreme Court nominee Amy Coney Barrett is facing the Senate Judiciary Committee for her third day of confirmation hearings. Yesterday, she gave a master class in the art of the dodge.

As she faced questions for 11 hours with no prepared notes, Barrett tried to portray herself as an independent judge without an agenda. But as often goes in these types of hearings -- because there is a bit of a formula -- Barrett declined to answer substantive questions. She offered short, minimal answers.

Just take a look at some of her responses on topics ranging from health care to abortion to voter intimidation.

[14:30:07]