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Global Coronavirus Pandemic; Early Voting Brings Long Lines, Record Turnout; Thai Government Bans Gatherings of 5+; K-pop's BTS Makes Strong Market Debut; COVID-19 Spike in U.K. Exposes Political Divisions; World Bank Calls for More Help for Poor Countries. Aired 2- 3a ET
Aired October 15, 2020 - 02:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Hello and welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm John Vause.
Coming up on CNN NEWSROOM, just in time for the holidays, curfews, restrictions, mask mandates. With infections surging a return to pre- COVID life in Europe once again on. Hold
Across the U.S., there's record hospitalizations and daily infections rising to record levels, the U.S. president superspreader campaign tour rolls on.
And in Bangkok, authorities crack down on a rare show of defiance as pro-democracy protesters challenge Thailand's monarchy and the prime minister.
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VAUSE: We begin with a second wave of the coronavirus, more severe than the first, sweeping across Europe. Over the past week infections have risen sharply. Countries that had the virus that were once under. Control.
Some of the worst affected regions in Germany we're now seeing limits on the numbers allowed to gather socially. Chancellor Angela Merkel is urging younger adults to follow these rules. There are tougher measures if infection rates continue to. Rise
Italy, where the first hit, now reporting its highest daily case count since the beginning of the pandemic. Starting Saturday, about a third of France's population will be under a 9 pm to 6 am curfew which will be in effect for at least 4 weeks.
CNN's Melissa Bell is live for us in Bordeaux; , CNN's Ben Wedeman standing by in Rome.
First to France.
Melissa, this is a first full weeklong curfew at this point in time. But Macron wants it to be much longer it seems.
MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, it could go up to six weeks or longer. He made this point on TV last night in a very somber address on the danger of the virus and the danger of what is happening right now with this second wave, to France's health care system. Explaining at the moment, referencing the fact that last week 3 records set, yesterday as well, more than 20,000 new cases announced in the single day.
He said very clearly at the moment, we are seeing daily rises of 20,000 new cases, we need to get down to 3,000 to 5,000. Hence the curfews in Paris, the greater Paris region, plus 8 other French cities on Saturday. You'll just have to be at home between 9 pm and 6 am. Here is what he explained.
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EMMANUEL MACRON, PRESIDENT OF FRANCE (through translator): If we stick to this curfew for 6 weeks, if we take collective responsibility for reducing our contacts, we think that will be able to progressively reopen at this stage.
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BELL: So he's leaving open really the amount of time it's going to be in place. But clearly this is going to be very damaging economically for an economy that was already looking very fragile in terms of recovery.
He also therefore announced that all the sectors that would be affected, cinemas, restaurants, bars, all of those people, are going to have the salaries of their employees paid for by the state.
So we're back into that first wave the state having to support all of that economic activity or end of economic activity. That's looking like an increasingly hefty bill that is at some point going to have to be paid.
VAUSE: Melissa thank. You
Let's go to Ben now.
Ben, Italy is a country that has paid such an incredible price in this first wave of the coronavirus, in terms of numbers of deaths and economically. And now once again record numbers of infections. This must be incredibly disheartening.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it certainly is and in Italy now, as of Wednesday, was reporting 7,332 new cases of coronavirus in a 24-hour period.
That compares to at its worst on the 21st of March, when Italy was really in the depths of the coronavirus, its worst at that point was reporting 6,557 cases.
And here we have "la Republica," a Rome daily, that shows how much, how many cases it has increased in just the last month or so.
And one of Italy's most respected experts on coronavirus is saying that Christmas is now at risk.
As of Monday, the entire government implemented new restrictions and rules for the citizens regarding COVID. For instance now, if I were to take this mask off, as I stand here in the center of Rome, I could be fined as much as 1,000 euros.
Trying to keep this mask on, because, before when I was reporting from Italy, even at the worst phases of it, I didn't have to wear this mask.
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WEDEMAN: Now if I take it off, a 1,000 euro fine. And the country is bracing for worse. What's interesting, John, if you look at the numbers, however, even though yesterday the biggest number of cases was reported, only 43 people died.
That compares to, for instance, at its worst on the 29th of March, 969 deaths were recorded. So clearly, the treatment of the virus, even though there is not a cure at this point, has improved dramatically.
And I can tell you one thing I'm noticing, now that I'm back in Italy reporting on coronavirus, is that it's much easier now to get a test. In fact I was swabbed yesterday. In my home here in Rome. So things are improving.
One of the reasons why perhaps this large number of cases is being recorded is because it's so much easier now to actually get a test. John
VAUSE: We are out of time. Just very quickly, when did you get the results back or when do you get the results back?
WEDEMAN: I got the results in 3. Minutes. It's negative. But of course you never know, as far as you could test today negative but sort of picked up the disease the day before, anyway, it's a little complicated.
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VAUSE: The test results in 3 minutes. Can't get that in this country, 3 days if you're lucky. Ben, thank you. Also Melissa Bell, thank you.
Well the coronavirus infection rate in the U.S. has soared to its highest level in 2 months. More than 50,000 cases are now being reported each day. Just a few days ago, as you can see on the right of the screen, the situation was less severe.
A handful of green states reporting daily infections were falling. But now as you can see on the left-hand side of the screen, not a single state is trending in the right direction. More now from CNN's Brian Todd.
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BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A new field hospital opens in Wisconsin today, as the state sets records for deaths in a day. It comes as we get the starkest indication yet of a brutal start to the fall, 36 states trending upward in new coronavirus cases tonight.
No states are trending down in new cases and for the first time in two months, America averaging more than 50,000 new cases each day.
DR. AMESH ADALJA, INFECTIOUS DISEASES SOCIETY OF AMERICA: We have got a lot of activities that are resuming. We have got sports all over the place with people in stadiums again. We have a lot of people getting back to work. We have schools open. We have people having kind of quarantine fatigue and trying to get back to some semblance of their normal life, having gatherings.
TODD: And there are new warnings about those gatherings, the White House Coronavirus Task Force and the CDC saying they're seeing an increased threat of virus spread from small household gatherings, where precautions often are not taken.
DR. ROBERT REDFIELD, CDC DIRECTOR: Particularly with Thanksgiving coming up, we think it's really important to stress the vigilance of these continued mitigation steps in the household setting.
TODD: Tony Green knows that threat too well. He held a small family gathering in Texas in June. From that event, he says, 14 people became infected and two of his relatives died.
TONY GREEN, FAMILY MEMBER OF CORONAVIRUS VICTIMS: I feel like a drunk driver that killed his family.
TODD: In two hard-hit areas, local leaders are cracking down. Oklahoma City seeing a rise in hospitalizations, is extending its mask ordinance until December 7.
New Mexico's governor, saying her state is approaching a point where the spread of the virus will be, quote, "uncontrollable," announces several new restrictions. Bars and restaurants serving alcohol have to close at 10:00 p.m., gatherings limited to five people.
In New York City the mayor says, while some hot spots have leveled off, the city is always at the threshold of getting back into trouble.
MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D-NY), NEW YORK CITY: We are threatened with a full-blown second wave in New York City. If that happens, the entire city would have to go back to the restrictions we knew in March and April.
TODD: New York's governor expressing frustration with a sweet 16 party at this inn on Long Island last month which spawned nearly 40 new cases.
Citing pop-up clusters like that, he offers a sobering projection for the country. GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): This is not going away anytime soon. I think best-case scenario, we're looking at another year by the time -- even if everything works out well.
TODD: But some good news mixed with caution, three new reports just published say that for people who've been infected with coronavirus and recovered, immunity from the virus can last for several months, maybe even longer because they've produced antibodies.
But one expert cautioned us that with coronaviruses, that immunity can wear off in a year or so, making the race for a durable vaccine even more critical -- Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.
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VAUSE: Even though cases in America's Midwest have been increasing dramatically.
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VAUSE: President Trump was back in the heartland for another campaign rally. He was in Iowa on Wednesday where he and most of the supporters were not wearing face masks. There is no social distancing, either.
Now that the president is recovered from COVID-19, the Trump administration has been pushing for herd immunity, to let the virus run its course unchecked through the entire population.
Many health experts say it's blatantly unethical and needlessly deadly.
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WILLIAM HASELTINE, FORMER PROFESSOR, HANARD MEDICAL SCHOOL, HARVARD SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: Herd immunity is another word for mass murder. That is exactly what it is.
If you allow this virus to spread as they are advocating, we are looking at 2 million to 6 million Americans dead, not just this year but every year.
The reason for that is that it there is no such thing as herd immunity. These viruses, coronaviruses, come back year after year and infect the very same people.
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VAUSE: At that Iowa rally, the president mentioned his son was also tested positive for COVID-19.
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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Barron Trump, you know, he had -- he had the corona 19, the China virus. He had it for such a short period of time. I don't even think he knew he had it. Because they're young and their immune systems are strong and they fight it off 99.9 percent. And Barron is beautiful and he's free.
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VAUSE: Well, we've said this before, the U.S. presidential election is less than 3 weeks away. But already millions have voted in record numbers. The country will hear from both candidates on Thursday night.
But Donald Trump and Joe Biden will not actually debate each other. They will hold town halls in different cities on a different network but at the same time.
Meanwhile, the old firm of Obama Biden will be back on the campaign trail next week. Former U.S. president Barack Obama will hit a number of swing states where voting is already underway.
The Biden campaign is hoping President Obama will make the case for his former V.P. with Black, Latino and younger voters. On Wednesday, Obama criticized Republicans for not keeping Trump in check.
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BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think a very important question, after the election, even if it goes well with Joe Biden, is whether you start seeing the Republican Party restore some sense of (INAUDIBLE) norms that we can breach because he's breached all of them.
And they have not said to him, this is too far.
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VAUSE: While Miami-Dade County in Florida will begin counting mail-in ballots in the next few hours. With in-person person voting starting on Monday. California has received 10 times as many requests for mail- in ballots, compared to the same point in the 2016 election. CNN's Pamela Brown has more. From across the country.
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PAMELA BROWN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): More early voting marked by more long lines, glitches, a record turnout in many locations by determined voters.
TRACE JACKSON, TEXAS VOTER: It's my civic responsibility and I always vote.
BROWN (voice-over): Early voting is happening across the U.S., with more states joining by the day: a big, first day in Tennessee, hours- long lines and a fresh glitch in Georgia and Texas where day one shattered records. Harris County, Texas had the highest early voting turnout ever.
But officials in the neighboring county of Fort Bend are adding extra hours of voting after systems problems. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just want to let everyone know that we are aware of some glitches in our voting system.
BROWN (voice-over): The glitch? The wrong date was put into the voting system and lines didn't move.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was just disappointing to see some people left. I'm wondering, are those people going to make it back in to vote or are they just not going to vote this year?
BROWN (voice-over): Voter enthusiasm was high in Georgia.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is generational election. People have to get out and vote.
BROWN (voice-over): And the long lines did not deter voters.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the primary, we waited about four hours. But we're willing to do whatever it takes to get the vote in.
BROWN (voice-over): The process, in part, slowed due to the pandemic. Machines are wiped down between voters to prevent the spread of coronavirus. Another issue is not enough bandwidth to process all of the information going through the system, affecting some voting locations Wednesday.
Despite it all, Georgia's secretary of state announced 10 percent of Georgia's 7.6 million voters already cast their vote.
BRAD RAFFENSPERGER, GEORGIA SECRETARY OF STATE: To sum it up, Georgia voters are excited and setting records every hour.
BROWN (voice-over): And in battleground Ohio, early in-person voting tripled from 2016.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's rekindled like a spirit of democracy in a lot of people. It has in me because I've missed votes, you know. So -- but I'm not missing today.
BROWN (voice-over): That spirit of democracy felt nationwide.
BROWN: A new Pew Research survey found deep divisions in confidence with the election process between Trump and Biden voters.
Seventy-six percent of registered voters who support Biden are confident that the country will know the winner of the presidential election after all the votes are counted, while a much smaller majority of Trump supporters, 55 percent, are confident that they will have a clear sense of who won after all the votes are counted. And just 13 percent of those Trump supporters say they are very confident -- Pamela Brown, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE) VAUSE: After the break, unprecedented protests against the monarchy
and the government in Thailand. How officials are trying to quell the unrest.
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JONATHAN MILLER, JOURNALIST: They want reform. They want democracy and they want things to change in Thailand since old Thailand's against new Thailand.
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VAUSE: Thailand's government is banning gatherings of more than 5 in Bangkok.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking foreign language).
VAUSE (voice-over): It's not because of the pandemic but to try and end months of pro-democracy protests. The effort came after thousands filled the streets on the capital Wednesday, an unprecedented show of defiance. At least 3 pro-democracy activists had been arrested. Earlier I spoke with Jonathan Miller of the U.K.'s Channel 4 News who was in Bangkok.
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MILLER: I woke up, as did most of the Thai people, to news that, at 4:00 am, the government had issued an emergency decree, which was announced on state television and it says as it appears that there are many groups of people have been cited illegal public assemblies in Bangkok in the extremely necessary to introduce an urgent measure to end the situation effectively and to maintain peace and order.
Now peace and order, of course, are the keywords here. They are the watchwords of authoritarian regimes everywhere. But peace and order ironically were the very words that the junta which took control here in a coup six years ago said that they were coming in to restore then.
And so, yes, in that respect, they failed spectacularly; in that respect Bangkok is no better off than the chaos of 2014.
However, something is very different here now and that is that these protests are focused on the king. Or at least that's one of the focuses because the dictatorship, as the protesters call it, they want them out and a new constitution put. But there are key elements they want to see reform of the monarchy. And this decree is trying to close them down.
[02:20:00] MILLER: It's basically saying that they're banned from any public assemblies of more than five people. And from publications of broadcasts, putting out anything that would create fear or affect national security. You have to see this in the context of what has been happening here in the past few weeks. Yesterday I was out on the streets of Bangkok and this will help you catch up fast.
MILLER (voice-over): In an ancient kingdom, in the throes of authoritarian regression, they turned out in the thousands to march against dictatorship. For decades, Thailand has been locked in a cycle of coups and regular spasms of violence.
Now, with the (INAUDIBLE) millions (INAUDIBLE), it seemed like the perfect monsoon storm. Battle lines drawn. Thousands in yellow shirted alter loyalist trucked in to defend their unpopular king and his unpopular military backed regime. The reformist protesters want the government out. A new constitution and there are growing demands to reign in the power of the monarchy. At times it was volatile. The protesters breaking through police lines as they marched on government house.
So the crowd is been surging forward here. And we're now just about 100 -200 meters from the government house. This is very symbolic because this is the seat of what these people regard as the dictatorship and of course it is not just a dictatorship we are talking about here.
This is a military monarchy complex. Were these people are raged against exactly that. They want reform. They want democracy and they want things to change in Thailand since old Thailand's against new Thailand, these people represent the new.
The plan tonight is to make their way into the government house complex and to camp out for the night. But what they've done today is absolutely remarkable and never before seen in Thailand. I didn't see this with my own eyes, because we've been cattle in with the demonstrators. But we know that the Kings motorcade was blocked at one stage by demonstrators.
We don't know if he was in it at the time. But he would've gotten the message. That there are people in this country, who desperately want change. And that change is something that he has the power to give them. And hasn't yet.
Pictures of the royal convoy revealed a major security lapse, but it turned out the king wasn't in his car. It was the queen and the young prince. Protesters hurled abuse. As we left the scene, hundreds of riot police were moving towards the protests. They haven't gone in, but for a royalist regime, feeling increasingly under siege, the use of force remains an option.
MILLER: John, I understand the outside government had quarters here in Bangkok and last night the scene in behind me here was awash with thousands of demonstrators. You wouldn't believe it now with the traffic flowing freely, but, half an hour after the emergency decree was issued the riot police moved in. There were arrests including two key protest leaders. And another one, the one who led the calls for monoclonal reform was picked up at 8:30 this morning.
The question is whether Thais have the stomach to keep on going with this calling for reform, whether there are cracks in the edifice perhaps. Everything is on the table right now.
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VAUSE: Well, it seems the chart-topping K-pop sensation BTS is just a bigger hit in the financial. Big Hit Entertainment, the group's management company, raised $840 million in (INAUDIBLE) on the KOSPI, South Korea's largest IPO in 3 years. All this comes in the midst of a pandemic. Here's CNN's Paula Hancocks.
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PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Everything this band touches, seems to turn to gold. BTS is South Korea's most well-known boy band shooting to the top of the billboard charts last month. A feat no other Korean artist has achieve.
JUNGKOOK, MEMBER OF BTS (through translator): It still doesn't feel 100 percent real, more so because right now we can't perform in front of people. In front of our fans.
HANCOCKS: The next chapter, IPO. BTS is management big hit entertainment is listing the company on South Korea's stock exchange. A move that values the company at more than $4 billion. More than the next three top k-pop agencies combined. In today strong market, some assumed investors will flock to buy the shares, including the bands hard-core fan base.
KIM EUN-HEE, BTS FAN (through translator): I may pick one or two shares, even if it is just one. So, I pulled my money and plan to put in 150 million one. I want to get closer to BTS as one teen and help them.
HANCOCKS: Big deal for big hit. But some worry that they are two reliant on just one act.
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PARK JU-GUN, BUSINESS ANALSYT (through translator): 90 percent of big hit entertainments revenue is from BTS. So the risk is there. But it has started to shift its revenue structure to multi-faceted portfolio.
HANCOCKS: Big hit as it has created an ecosystem of artists, apps and contents.
BANG SI-HYUK, CEO, BIG HIT ENTERTAINMENT (through translator): We drove profit not only through the album and music, but online concerts, official merchandise, multimedia content and more.
HANCOCKS: Military service looms for all seven members of the group, but they could use another international k-pop group big bang as a model. Solo careers. Some also question the timing of the IPO in the middle of a global pandemic. But the market sees it as a sign that the company can only go up as the world recovers.
JU-GUN (through translator): If the company is highly value now in the midst of a pandemic, it will be an opportunity to gain even more momentum next year, post pandemic.
HANCOCKS: In a rare move for the industry, big hit has given more than $7 million worth of shares to each member of the bands. A share of the success. And perhaps a guarantee for the future -- Paula Hancocks, CNN, Seoul.
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VAUSE: Coming up on CNN NEWSROOM, as a second wave sweeps across Europe, U.K. prime minister is coming under fire for what he did and did not do in his response to the pandemic.
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VAUSE: Tough pandemic restrictions have been reimposed across Europe, where resurgence of the coronavirus is sending the daily number of infections to record highs and. Beyond
In the U.K. the second wave is putting even more pressure on Boris Johnson's leadership. Lawmakers are odds over the best way forward. CNN's Salma Abdelaziz reports.
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SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN PRODUCER: A spike in coronavirus cases across the U.K. has exposed political divisions and ignited a firestorm of criticism over Boris Johnson's strategy to stem the rising infection rates.
The prime minister faced off with the opposition Labour Party leader in Parliament. She called for a circuit breaker, a short, sharp but nationwide lockdown. This was the prime minister's response.
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BORIS JOHNSON, U.K. PRIME MINISTER: Let's try to avoid the misery of another national lockdown, which he would want to impose, as I say, in a headlong way.
Let's work together. Let's work together, as he was prepared to do, to keep kids in school, who he would now yank out, yank out of school in a preemptory way. Keep our economy going and keep jobs and livelihoods supported in this country.
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[02:30:00] ABDELAZIZ: Each of the United Kingdom's four nations is taking a different strategy to stem the rise in coronavirus cases. Wales announced it will ban travelers from entering the region from coronavirus hotspots in England, Northern Ireland and Scotland.
The first minister of Scotland quickly voiced her support for the Welsh government's decision, saying this is a public health decision, not a political one.
Northern Ireland, on the other hand, will be closing schools from Monday and pubs and restaurants will have new restrictions starting Friday.
Here in Liverpool, the first city to fall under England's new COVID alert system, restrictions are in place that shut down pubs, bars, casinos, gyms and households are banned from mixing together indoors.
This was also met with resistance by Liverpool's local city council. Officials here are saying prime minister Boris Johnson's government has failed to communicate and coordinate their strategy. All of these debates taking place as the number of coronavirus infections continues to rise across the United Kingdom -- Salma Abdelaziz, CNN, Liverpool.
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VAUSE: Dr. Peter Drobac is an infectious disease and global health expert at the University of Oxford. He joins us live.
Doctor, thank you for being with us. Once again it seems an old debate has resurfaced this time over lockdowns. Saving lives versus saving the economy. We have Liverpool, the only city in England which is under this top tier alert.
When ministers call for restrictions on other big cities, liberal leaders, like the mayor of Manchester, put up statements like this, imposing tier 3 lockdown measures, would surrender people to certain hardship in the run up to Christmas.
What seems to be happening is that most people there, all these leaders, don't seem to understand this a public health crisis, which has caused an economic crisis. Ending the pandemic is the only way to save the economy. That was true during the first wave.
That's true during the second wave, right?
DR. PETER DROBAC, OXFORD UNIVERSITY: That's exactly right. It's a false choice between public health and the economy. And if we look around the world , the only countries that have escaped real economic devastation have been the ones that did a good job early on.
We are caught between a rock and a hard place right now. The U.K. and across much of Europe, cases started rising back in August actually. And it's continued to kind of creep up over the last couple of weeks.
We've seen really alarming spikes. It reflects a real failure to have long term public health strategy to address the pandemic, so we move from these kind of short term measures of severe lockdowns to opening up way too quickly and lurching back and forth.
What we really need is a package of measures that are going to help us get through the winter. What I fear right now is that the measures that are being proposed are going to be too little, too late. And in fact the government, the measures introduced this week, are far short of what's recommended by their own scientific advisers.
VAUSE: And what was Germany, though, Angela Merkel has introduced tougher restrictions. Germany also seeing some rising case numbers as well. She had a message, particularly for younger people. Listen to this.
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ANGELA MERKEL, CHANCELLOR OF GERMANY (through translator): We must call, especially on young people, to do without a few parties now in order to have a good life tomorrow or the day after.
And a lot is riding on this. And we saw the unruly effects on our economy that the spring had. And we are a high performing country but our resources are not unlimited. And so we must be careful with our resources.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: It seems that's a familiar situation in a lot of countries but compared to the U.K., France, Italy, Germany is doing a lot better in its efforts to contain this virus.
Outside of the restrictions, what do you think they have actually been doing right in Germany?
DROBAC: So what Germany did was actually build a robust public health response. They both have a strong medical sector but also worked in investing early in testing and in contact tracing, in early detection and community treatment.
And all those measures help to break change of transmission, so when you have one positive case, you address that; you find their contacts, you get them out of circulation before the virus can spread.
Here in the U.K. we still have a pretty shambolic test and trace system, many people who need a test with symptoms can't even get one. And the contact tracing system has been a real failure.
So Germany in contrast, by using those public health tools, much like the very successful countries in the Pacific Rim, have been able to largely stave things. Off
They have started to see also a quite concerning rise in cases. And I think Angela Merkel's point also is that it's not just about the policies and what government needs to do; it's about each of our individual behaviors to protect ourselves and to protect one another.
VAUSE: It's interesting how what happens in Germany doesn't happen in isolation and is impacted by other countries in Europe. What we're seeing over here in the United States, is embraced by the White House in the concept of herd immunity. Allow the virus to run unchecked, bury the dead later on.
Many scientists signed a letter against this idea. The World Health Organization has also warned against it. Listen to this.
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TEDROS ADHANOM GHEBREYESUS, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION DIRECTOR- GENERAL: Herd immunity is achieved by protecting people from the virus, not by exposing them to it. Allowing a dangerous virus that we don't fully understand to run free is simply unethical. It's not an option.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Before this pandemic, when we talked about herd immunity, it was about using vaccines to reach a level of immunity among the population. That's what happened with the measles.
But if there is no lifelong immunity, which we seem to be discovering now from the coronavirus, it may be 7 months or maybe less and there is no vaccine, is it possible to get herd immunity?
DROBAC: Not without tremendous, unnecessary suffering and death, frankly. It's never really been done, this idea of achieving herd immunity through natural infection. It's not something that's ever been successfully done, intentionally.
I've also signed on to that same declaration against the so-called herd immunity strategy. There are 2 big problems with it.
Number one, the idea that you can somehow let the infection rip through the healthy part of the population and then effectively shield the vulnerable part of the population, who include the elderly, those with medical comorbidities, those who are overweight and certain communities of color, is really just impossible to do and it's not been done successfully.
In places that have tried like Sweden, we saw the virus rip through care homes for example and cause a lot of unnecessary death.
The second problem is, you pointed out. Is that immunity is incomplete and it probably is not durable. We don't know how long immunity will last for.
So what you are really looking for with a herd immunity strategy, is risking potentially millions of excess deaths for an uncertain short term benefit. I just agree it's not ethical.
VAUSE: It does seem a trail of destruction and the most vulnerable pay the highest price. Dr. Drobac, thanks for being with us, we appreciate it.
DROBAC: Thanks for having me.
VAUSE: Armenia and Azerbaijan are blaming each other for violating a temporary cease-fire that was broken by Russia. Azerbaijan's president accused Armenia of trying to attack its oil and gas pipelines and threatened a severe response.
Armenia's prime minister said Azerbaijan continued its attacks during the cease-fire. The dispute centers around a region governed by Armenians but within Azerbaijan's internationally recognized borders.
Next up on CNN NEWSROOM. A warning from the IMF about economic aid during this pandemic, sounding the alarm for the most vulnerable countries now struggling with the economic fallout from the coronavirus.
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VAUSE: Negotiations on a second coronavirus stimulus package will resume on Thursday with the White House hoping for an agreement before the election. Treasury Secretary Stephen Mnuchin is offering increased assistance for both child care and the paycheck protection program. But he wants Democrats to authorize $300 billion already in the Treasury Department account.
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VAUSE: Meanwhile the head of the International Monetary Fund is calling on private creditors and China to offer increased debt relief in developing countries struggling with the economic fallout from the coronavirus pandemic. CNN's John Defterios is in Abu Dhabi and he joins us live.
We talked about this last hour, this divide in what countries have at their disposal, the U.S., the biggest country that has the biggest arsenal, as you like, can decide how much it wants to spend. Other countries don't have that luxury.
JOHN DEFTERIOS, CNN EMERGING MARKETS EDITOR: That's for sure, we have the case of the haves and the have-nots, John, and it is the second wave so it is very difficult for the developing countries, especially those in extreme poverty to cope with this.
Then the willingness of the G20 countries to spend more at home and not talking about just abroad.
So the message coming from the heads of the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank is don't pull back at home domestically and continue to focus on the world's poorest countries. It's vital.
The World Bank put over $25 billion to the developing world. Doesn't seem like a lot of money. Another $12 billion for vaccine distribution. This will be vital when they get access to those. But his warning here in COVID-19, we're not talking about recessions
and different economies around the world, John, we're talking about a depression for the poorest countries. Let's take a listen.
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DAVID MALPASS, WORLD BANK PRESIDENT: For many developing countries and the people in the poorest countries, it is truly a depression, a catastrophic event. And it is continuing to add to the ranks of those in extreme poverty.
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DEFTERIOS: And the calculation is by the World Bank is at the autumn meetings they will add 150 million people to extreme poverty and that is ranked living on about $2 a day. Or less John. They will not eradicate poverty in 2030 for the sustainable development goals of the United Nations.
VAUSE: Right now it seems the industrialized world, the richer countries, are not doing a whole lot to help. These economies in the developing world which are struggling during the pandemic. That seems to be very short term or very short sighted if you'd like because what happens in the developing world during this pandemic, will find its way back to Europe, back to the United States back to Australia and the rest of Asia.
DEFTERIOS: Yes, this is my concern, the very beginning of the outbreak, John, back in February when it started to heat up, is that the focus has been domestically, we're looking at about $12 trillion in the G20 spent. Most of that is being utilized, at home.
But to think this is a global pandemic and you don't focus on Latin American, Africa, is a mistake. The debate right now within the G20 is they extended debt suspension for another 6 months. You notice I didn't say debt relief. That's where the World Bank and the IMF is suggesting. They will consider it in the next month.
So you can suspend your debt, the interest continues to pile up for the world's poorest countries, relief and they're asking China to get to the table. China has been lending money to African and Latin America. They in turn spend it on Chinese infrastructure. That's what's been happening.
And now they're suggesting to China, you have to cut the debt going forward. You have to sit at the table.
VAUSE: Is it very -- it looks like a whole vicious cycle. They borrow money, they get the debt, they can't pay it back they borrow more. None of it ends up going anywhere.
John, I guess we're out of time but thank you.
And thank you for watching CNN NEWSROOM. Stay with us. More news in 15 minutes.
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