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Coronavirus Cases Surge as Nation Closes in on Critical Election; Trump, Michigan Governor Trade Attacks in Wake of Foiled Kidnapping Plot; Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), White House to Speak Today as Millions Wait for Stimulus Deal. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired October 19, 2020 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN NEWSROOM: Top of the hour, good morning, everyone, I'm Poppy Harlow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

You may have heard there's a critical election just 15 days away and a lot of folks already voting. Crucial next few months, experts warn could be the darkest so far in this pandemic. Right now, the nation is averaging more than 50,000 new coronavirus infections every day.

But the president is still pushing ahead, holding just the kind of events, like this one, campaign rallies with a lot of people crowded together, not a lot of social distancing, there's one in Arizona later today.

HARLOW: Yes, none there. It comes as key members of the White House task force are praising a move by Twitter, a move that over the weekend removed a tweet by the president's COVID-19 adviser, Dr. Scott Atlas, for pushing misinformation saying masks don't work, when, in fact, they do. More on that in a moment.

Let's get to Martin Savidge though. He joins us in Utah. Good morning, Martin.

An alarming spike in new cases in Utah.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. Good morning, Poppy.

Yes, the governor here is declaring that Utah is seeing one of the worst outbreaks of COVID-19 that are being seen anywhere in the country right now. He says the numbers are unsustainable. And, in fact, you could argue that the last seven days in Utah have been the worst that they have seen since the start of the pandemic. Sunday marked the fifth day in a row that this state has seen a thousand plus new cases every single day.

Let me show you what's going on here. We are at the parking lot of the University of Utah Stadium, huge open air facility, where this morning, they just opened the gates and it is another day of testing here. It's one of the largest testing sites in the state. The process is simple, people drive up to bay two or bay one.

The thing to note about this particular testing site in the city is these people believe they have coronavirus, they're symptomatic. There are other sites here where people go where they're asymptomatic. Originally, they had one bay, they've gone now to two bays and it used to be that anybody could show up. Now, they have to do it by appointment because the traffic became so heavy in this area.

So it just gets back to the numbers that you're seeing in the state. The positivity rate is extremely high, 15 percent. And you're seeing the roll on effects as to the impact it's having in the medical community. Many of the ICUs by Friday were reporting they were at 104 percent capacity. Other people who were suffering life-threatening maladies were being turned away or their treatment was being delayed simply because medical teams here were so focused and overwhelmed with the COVID cases that they were seeing.

And then, nationally, when you take a look at the numbers, 38 states have now seen a 5 percent increase in COVID cases in the last week. And the numbers are only going to increase now, of course, as the temperatures cool down and people spend time indoors. And all of this here is tied to what is going on with schools reopened. They've cracked down and made face masks mandatory across the state but local officials can overrule it. It's just the beginning here of another bad week here.

Back to you, Poppy and Jim.

HARLOW: Really unfortunate to see what's happening. Martin, thank you very much.

SCIUTTO: Well, the president continues an all-out campaign blitz, all these rallies even as cases rise in 27 states, many of the states that he's visiting. President Trump will hold two rallies today in Arizona.

HARLOW: Our John Harwood is outside the White House this morning. Good morning, John.

We know that he likes the rallies, he gets a lot of energy from them. They helped him in 2016. But they are not safe without everyone wearing masks and being socially distanced. The most the campaign has said on this is that they're handing out masks, but not required.

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Right. They're not enforcing mask-wearing, they're not enforcing social distancing, the president enjoys conveying an image of normalcy, and that, of course, is of concern to many of the states where he is visiting, including Arizona. Arizona, in Couth (ph) and the city of Tucson, which is one of the places he'll visit today, is concerned about having made progress over the summer from the spike that they experienced.

They've now seen an uptick in cases and deaths. And so the mayor of Tucson, Regina Romero, has warned the president that what he's doing in Tucson today is going to be dangerous. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR REGINA ROMERO (D-TUCSON, AZ): We are very concerned that this can become a spreader event, a super-spreader event. And as you've seen with other of President Trump's rallies, the spread can really continue and make its damage here.

And so we've made too many sacrifices as Tucsonans to --

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[10:05:01]

HARWOOD: And the mayor has raised a financial concern as well, guys. In 2016, security costs for the president's visit ran up to about $80,000, the city was not reimbursed for that. Now, they're saying that the security costs for the president's visit this time is estimated to be about $50,000, and they're hoping to get reimbursed. But given past experience, I think the mayor should not hold her breath on that.

SCIUTTO: Well, the security cost and then the health cost too, right? Because there's the track record of these events leading to more infections, sadly. John Harwood at the White House, thanks very much.

Let's discuss now with Dr. Larry Brilliant, aptly named Dr. Brilliant, epidemiologist and CNN Medical Analyst. I'm just echoing your mom there, Dr. Brilliant.

DR. LARRY BRILLIANT, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: No. It was my dad who gave me the name. You have to talk to him.

SCIUTTO: Well, listen, in seriousness, because we're seeing exactly what smart folks like you warned about, right, leading into the fall, which was a second wave. I mean, in effect, we never left the first wave. And you have a combination of forces here, do you not? I mean, both exhaustion with all the steps necessary to take but also deliberate disinformation coming from the White House. I wonder what can put the brakes on that in your view right now given where we're headed?

BRILLIANT: Good morning, Poppy, good morning, Jim, and thank you for having me.

you know, I'm reminded of what Dr. Fauci said in the summer when we crept up to 70,000 cases a day and he worried that we would reach 100,000 cases a day. Every one of these rallies that the president is conducting has the potential to become and likely, in many instances, to become super-spreader events, that would be one of the contributors that may very well push us over 100,000 cases a day. It may bring us back to 2,500 deaths per day, which is what Chris Murray at the University of Washington has estimated.

There's nothing to stop this the way things are going. We're heading into the cold period, we're huddling together inside, and these are all the factors that bring us flu every year. While, I hope this will be a mild flu season, those factors will still be there and they work for all respiratory viruses.

HARLOW: Dr. Brilliant, do you agree with Michael Osterholm, who directs the Center for Infectious Disease Research at the University of Minnesota, who said yesterday that we are heading into the next 6 to 12 weeks and could be could be the darkest of the entire pandemic?

BRILLIANT: I frequently agree with Mike. I certainly agree with him on this case. This is a frightening moment in time when we have a political process, the election, and the president who is not contributing to stopping the pandemic, is denying its existence, is creating a culture where the things that will help us, which are masks and social distancing and being careful, it's just the opposite of what we should be doing. Yes, I think Mike is right.

SCIUTTO: Okay. On the good side, if there is good news here, and the president will often note this, but there's some evidence in the statistics, right, that the death rate among those infected has declined, as doctors like yourself have learned better how to treat this. One, is that true, and what should we take from that? What is the good news that we should take from that?

BRILLIANT: Two different death rates. The death rate per capita, comparing us to other countries, has not decreased. The death race per case, in other words, if you do get the disease and you go in the hospital, will you survive, has definitely dropped and it's a tribute to modern medicine. We have tools in our arsenal now, we have Decadron or dexamethasone, which we know works. We have convalescent plasma which we believe works. And we have monoclonal antibodies that we're hopeful works.

But even just the way nursing care has improved, doctors are not shoving ventilators down on people's throats quite as quickly. No, that's a wonderful thing. And you're absolutely, right, that's great, good news.

HARLOW: On the lockdown question, Dr. Fauci was asked about this last night on 60 Minutes, and he essentially said, it would take a lot for him to support another national lockdown. Are we going to get to a point where that will be necessary or state-by-state lockdowns going to be enough over the next 12 weeks?

BRILLIANT: I hope not. But what will drive it isn't the death rate. What will drive it is the hospitalization rate. If people who need cancer treatment or need surgery can't get into a hospital because the hospital is overflowing with COVID patients, that will force everyone to go back to the drawing board.

And, look, lockdowns are not something in the public health arsenal as something turned to easily or glibly.

[10:10:06]

We don't want to ever do lockdowns except when the death rate and the hospitalization rate becomes so overwhelming as it did in the past. If we have, again, photos of ambulances and refrigerator trucks filled with bodies, as we did in Detroit and Manhattan, how can you not do a lockdown?

SCIUTTO: Makeshift hospitals, right? I mean, that image as well always alarming. Dr. Larry Brilliant, thanks so much.

BRILLIANT: Thank you for having me.

SCIUTTO: We're getting a look at disturbing new video shown as evidence, we should note, in federal court which shows what prosecutors say are training exercises done in preparation for a plot to kidnap and perhaps even kill Michigan's governor. You'll want to see these images. They're alarming.

Plus, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says that if a stimulus deal is to get through the House before Election Day, it would have to be done by tomorrow. So are the two sides close enough to make that happen?

HARLOW: And across the country, long lines are greeting early voters. Turnout in some places shattering records today, more states begin allowing early voting.

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[10:15:00]

HARLOW: Welcome back.

Well, this morning the president and Michigan's governor, Gretchen Whitmer, are trading attacks as we are learning new details about the alleged plot to kidnap her. Over the weekend, the president criticized Whitmer's refusal to open schools at a rally in Michigan. Then the crowd began chant, lock her up, to which the president responded, lock them all up.

Governor Whitmer responded by saying, the president's rhetoric is inciting domestic terroristm.

SCIUTTO: This comes as the U.S. attorney's office has released stunning new video evidence. It's a video submitted by federal prosecutors which they say were drills in this alleged plot to kidnap. We're going to show a clip of this. They're truly alarming.

Joining us now, the former assistant secretary for Homeland Security under President Trump, Elizabeth Neumann, she's also a longtime Republican. Though back in August, she announced she would support Biden in 2020. Elizabeth Neumann, good to have you on this morning.

ELIZABETH NEUMANN, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP: Thanks for me having me, Jim and Poppy.

SCIUTTO: I've covered terrorism for years, 20-some odd years. I've seen a lot of terrorist training videos, ISIS, Al Qaeda, you name it. This one in that category for violence, coordination as well. I mean, this is a multiple automatic weapons live fire apparently not just to kidnap the governor but kill or kill her security detail.

I just wonder, I asked Representative Rooney of Florida just a few days ago, a Republican, whether he agrees with Governor Whitmer, that by saying things like Whitmer is a dictator, by egging on his crowd to chant, lock her up, is the president giving these groups encouragement? Representative Rooney said, yes. I wonder, given your expertise, do you agree?

NUEMANN: I do. In fact, I wrote an op-ed last week about this. I think it's really important that the American people understand that people that study extremism saw back in March when the shutdowns started to happen and we were trying to figure out the right pandemic mitigation measures. Many of us flagged, hey, we're walking into a period where we need to be definitely need to be doing these public health measures but it is going to exacerbate tensions for those that already hold extremist beliefs and it's going to put certain types of people on a path way towards radicalization.

And so we looked at, you know, studies that have been done for decades. We looked at various risk factors and everybody kind of came to the conclusion that, yes, sadly, on the other side or as a part of -- side effect of the pandemic, we are likely to have people more radicalized and a smaller portion of those radicalized extremists motivated to carry out acts of violence.

So we wrote a proposal asking for the COVID task force to include in their messaging important information that could help leaders and their communities build resilience in their communities so that those vulnerably individuals might be less likely to radicalize, that proposal was never adopted by the White House. In fact, we saw they did exact the opposite of what we asked them to do.

Disinformation exacerbates the miscues on do we mask, do we not mask, whether the virus is real or not. All of those things actually have made this worse. And then you add the president's language on top of it, yes, it is definitely inciting people to commit these acts of domestic terrorism.

HARLOW: On that note, Elizabeth, I was so struck reading your op-ed, and this part stood out to me in particular. Quote, you write, this is where leadership makes a difference. A good leader can speak to the country, especially those most susceptible to radicalization and contextualize the national worldwide struggle against COVID-19 in a way that unites people and discourages division, anger and grievance.

It may sound simple, but when you have many more people out of work with more time on their hand alone, isolated, watching many online videos, for example, and many who have lost completely their stream of income, are these the factors you're talking about that you clearly warned the task force about months ago?

NEUMANN: Exactly. And, again, these are not things that policymakers came up with. These are rigorous, academic studies that have identified common factors, behavioral indicators and risk factors in people that have carried out mass attacks. So, sadly, we're all experiencing some of those stressors that increase somebody's likelihood to radicalize.

[10:20:07] Now, that doesn't mean all of us are going to radicalize. It is thankfully a small subset of our population. But when you have this common experience of all of us experiencing these -- more isolation, loss of job, uncertainty about life, in general, loss of a loved one, all of those can be factors that lead somebody to radicalize.

SCIUTTO: Okay. I know there's a lot that come to our viewers in the news and sometimes crazy things the president says. But I want to highlight what you said about the president inciting domestic terrorism, what a sitting Republican member of Congress said in the last hour about the president inciting domestic terrorism and ask you this question. Because in 15 days, people will -- many people are already casting their votes, but Americans have to decide who the next president is going to be.

If President Trump is re-elected, is the threat of domestic terrorism greater as a result of the president's response, his rhetoric, his refusal to accept your recommendations at DHS?

NEUMANN: I think so, yes. I think on the other side of the election, it's going to be tense no matter what, no matter who wins. I think if you have a Biden presidency, then that tension over time can tamp down a bit. I think if you have a President Trump for four more years, he is going to continue to not condemn and add fuel to the fire of white nationalism, of antigovernment extremism, QAnon, you name it. If they are willing to give him support, he is willing to support them. And it's just going to continue to build this tension that we're all sensing in our country.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: Well, Elizabeth, we're glad you're here. I would point people to your op-ed because it makes a lot of important points on this. Thanks very much for your time this morning.

Ahead --

NEUMANN: Thank you for having me.

HARLOW: Of course.

Will there be a stimulus deal? Will one happen today? We will ask the second most Democrat in the House. Majority Leader Steny Hoyer is next.

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HARLOW: Welcome back.

Well, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says a deal must be reached by tomorrow if Congress wants to ensure that millions of struggling Americans have a chance to receive more stimulus money before Election Day. She is expected to talk to the White House in just a few hours.

With me now is House Majority Leader, the number two Democrat in the House, Congressman Steny Hoyer of Maryland. Good morning, sir. REP. STENY HOYER (D-MD): Hi, Poppy. How are you?

HARLOW: I'm well. Thank you for being here on such an important day. Is a deal going to be announced this afternoon?

HOERY: Well, I hope so. Obviously it will depend upon whether we can come to an agreement. And that will depend upon whether or not we give the assistance to all the people who need it.

The conversation has been sort of like we'll save half of the people on Titanic. We won't need boats for everybody because the Titanic won't sink, but, by golly, when it does sink, we'll take care of half the people. That's not what Americans want. That's not what Americans need. That's not what economists tell us is essential.

States and locals are a perfect example, where Senator McConnell said, let them go bankrupt. But when states go bankrupt, they're going to drag down the economy with all of us.

So I'm hopeful we get to an agreement. I think Secretary Mnuchin and Speaker Pelosi clearly want to get a deal. The problem is they've been dealing with people who I don't think wanted to get to a deal and the president has been all over the ballpark. Now he says, go big and bigger than we suggested in our $2.2 trillion reduction by 35 percent of our original offer.

So I think that Nancy and Mnuchin, the speaker and Mnuchin, are going to be trying this today hopefully to get to that deal. And let's hope they do.

HARLOW: Okay, certainly. Let's hope they do for the millions of Americans who cannot get by much longer without it.

The thing is you said this to Axios on Wednesday. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOYER: Frankly, we're prepared to go down further.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How low?

HOYER: Well, I think they've mentioned 1.8. I think we could work a deal at 1.8.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: The White House is offering 1.8. You said you could work a deal at 1.8. Why is there no deal?

HOYER: Well, because the devil is in the details. They're not offering anything for states and local, which we need. They're not offering anything for earned income tax credits for the people who are most struggling but working. They're not offering to do testing pursuant to a plan. They say they're going to take our number, but then they changed it in terms of they may do this, it's not a requirement -- HARLOW: I know some of the language changed and I heard the speaker's interview over the weekend about changing may to shall, et cetera, or shall to may. But you now -- I mean, politically, you've got 56 percent of Democrats in a key state like Arizona -- 56 percent of likely voters, excuse me, in the state of Arizona, blaming Democrats on this over Republicans or the president.

[10:30:07]