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Supreme Court Ruling on Late-Arriving Ballots; Michigan's Secretary of State Talks about Voting; Stimulus Deadline Looms; QAnon Spreads Conspiracies. Aired 9:30-10a

Aired October 20, 2020 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

ARIANE DE VOGUE, CNN SUPREME COURT REPORTER: And that is differently -- that's different when it comes to the Supreme Court because the Supreme Court has more of a supervisory role over federal courts. And already they've sent a message in other cases, look, federal courts, you shouldn't get involved with this state business too close to an election.

But Wisconsin could come out differently than Pennsylvania, like I said, because the court could say, federal courts, you can't get involved too quickly. But it could say, state courts, that's a higher burden for us and we're going to get the state court get involved with the voting accommodations.

So two different things. One has to do with the federal courts and one has to do with the state court.

And, Jim, that could be essential now as we get more challenges, but it could really be essential if there are post-election challenges. And that's what we have to watch for.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, it's a reminder that our elections are very much state by state, right?

DE VOGUE: Absolutely.

SCIUTTO: Lots of different rules in lots of different places.

Ariane de Vogue, thanks very much.

DE VOGUE: Thank you.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Well, several more states begin early voting today. Wisconsin, of course, a critical state again in this upcoming election. They begin in-person absentee voting, as well as Hawaii and Utah. So far, more than 28 million voters have cast their ballots already. Nearly 1.5 million of them -- but I think you're going to get an update that the number's actually much higher in the crucial state of Michigan. That is a state that was decided by only 10,704 votes in 2016. So joining us now is Michigan's Democratic secretary of state, Jocelyn

Benson.

Madam Secretary, it's nice to have you.

So I feel like my 1.5 million number's a little low.

JOCELYN BENSON (D), MICHIGAN SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, yes, I mean we're announcing today that over 3 million citizens have requested to vote early in Michigan. This is extraordinary if you consider the fact that in November 2016, 4.7 million voters participated total in that entire election. So we're on track to see record turnout in Michigan, just like so many states around the country. And that's a great thing for democracy.

HARLOW: OK. So you've made a lot of headlines and a lot of news by your move on Friday to ban open carry of guns at polling stations on Election Day. State Representatives Beau LaFave, who's a Republican from Iron Mountain there, called this a cheap political game.

And he went on to say, quote, "the idea that she must prevent people from exercising their Second Amendment rights for our elections to be safe and secure is absolutely false. Secretary Benson is fearmongering to suppress voters and it's appalling."

I'd like to give you a chance to respond to that.

BENSON: Yes, I mean certainly the fearmongering is coming from those who would seek to or threaten or spread rumors about people showing up armed at the polls. My job as the state's chief election officer is simply to ensure that every voter is protected.

And that's exactly what we're doing here, we're issuing a very narrowly tailored regulation to ensure that the open carry of firearms at polling places, which can be intimidating or potential threatening or harassing for voters, is simply not appropriate or not allowed.

HARLOW: But, Madam Secretary, Robert Stevenson, who you know is the director of Michigan's Association of Police Chiefs, he representing 385 police chiefs across the state, he is really worried and he's warning that his officers, he says, won't be able to enforce the law because he says it's not based on law. He says the feedback I've been getting from our police agencies is they are uncomfortable trying to enforce something they clearly don't have the authority to enforce.

BENSON: Well --

HARLOW: I understand that you have supervisory control of elections, but where in the law does it state explicitly you have this right?

BENSON: Two areas. One, of course, the U.S. Constitution is -- it creates voting as a fundamental right. But under federal and state law --

HARLOW: There's also the Second Amendment, though, in the U.S. Constitution. BENSON: And -- and -- yes, and under federal and state law it is

illegal to intimidate or harass voters at the polls. The imagery or the bringing of an open carry -- an open carry -- a carrying a firearm into a polling place or in a voting area is something that very clearly can be intimidating to voters. And I've --

HARLOW: But that -- that's your view. I'm just saying they're pushing back and saying that that's not explicitly laid out in law. And we spent a lot of time this morning looking through statutes and laws to try to find it. I'm just wondering, is there a specific law you can point to?

BENSON: Yes. Again, the federal law -- well, first, there's a state constitutional right that was amended in our state constitution in 2018 to create a right to vote that is preeminent among all other rights, in my view. And then also there is that federal law and state law banning intimidation at the polls. And we see the carrying -- open carry of firearms as intimidation at the polls.

HARLOW: So, Secretary, there -- you know, for people who don't know your career, you're a lawyer trained at Harvard Law. But then, at the beginning of your career, you spent working on tracking white supremacists and neo-Nazi groups.

BENSON: I did.

HARLOW: And just given the state that we're in right now across the country and the fact that according to these draft documents by the Department of Homeland Security, white supremacists will remain the, quote, most persistent and lethal threat in the United States through 2021.

I wonder how that affects how you do your job, especially right now?

BENSON: Well, certainly we're in a very unique moment. And I've seen firsthand, as I was starting my career, as you mentioned, investigating undercover white supremacist organizations, that, you know, violent words and hateful rhetoric from leaders can lead to hateful actions from followers.

[09:35:13]

And that's simply academic research. And we're also, obviously, at a very critical time with heightened tensions in our state. And, again, it's my job to ensure that every voter, regardless of who they vote for, feels protected and safe at the polls.

HARLOW: On Friday, the Michigan Court of Appeals ruled that votes need to be received in the state of Michigan by 8:00 on election night. And in that decision, the judges wrote one of the reasons is there are ample opportunities to vote early in your state and they specifically cited the nearly 1,000 ballot drop boxes that you have made sure are installed across the state.

Do you agree with their assertion that given all those ballot drop boxes there is ample opportunity for everyone to get their vote in by 8:00 p.m. on election night, because this was seen as a blow to Democrats?

BENSON: Well, I have seen, based on the data, that citizens are listening to the voter education that we, my office and various clerks have done to encourage people to vote early and get their ballots in early.

Now, there are a lot of uncertainties and variables with the Postal Service. That's why Michigan, as well as many other states, was part of a lawsuit suing the Postal Service a few weeks ago for the changes they made to slow down the mail service. That said, recognizing that my office used the CARES Act funding from the federal government to install close to 1,000 -- over 1,000 drop boxes all around the state for that very reason.

We recognize that the courts will litigate the issue of the -- of when a ballot is sent prior to Election Day and received after. I see that still as a valid vote. But we also know that the most important thing is for voters to have all their votes in by 8:00 p.m. on Election Day. And so that's what we're trying to help make happen.

HARLOW: Secretary Jocelyn Benson, we know you've got a lot on your plate. Thanks for your time.

BENSON: Always a pleasure. Thank you.

HARLOW: We appreciate it very much.

Well, if you want to find your polling station wherever you live, voter registration status or get information about absentee or early voting, it's all right here, cnn.com/vote.

So we're now just a few hours away from House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's deadline to reach a stimulus deal if a package is to be passed before Election Day. Where do those negotiations stand, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:41:38]

HARLOW: Well, tonight apparently is the deadline -- or the self- imposed deadline after months of back and forth and bickering and heated debate. Will Congress finally come together, strike a deal, get aid, stimulus money, to millions of Americans as the virus continues to rage in the days before the election?

SCIUTTO: Lauren Fox is on Capitol Hill.

Lauren, deadline today according to Speaker Pelosi. We know the differences and it's among Republicans, too, right, over how far to go, whether they want to go. Chances of a deal right now?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Well, essentially right now this negotiation is happening between two people, right, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin. They spoke for about an hour yesterday, right after House Speaker Pelosi had a call with her entire Democratic caucus where she essentially told her members, I don't want to keep repeating we don't share the same values, but we don't share the same values.

So, what we expect is that those negotiations are going to continue today. I am told that appropriators from both the House and the Senate tried to sit down to hammer out some of the finer print in the negotiation that Pelosi and Mnuchin thought that they had agreed upon, that that meeting was difficult because there are still quite a wide gap, even on issues that Pelosi and Mnuchin think that they found some consensus.

I will also tell you that I talked yesterday to Senate Republicans who were coming back to Washington after a couple of weeks away, and essentially most of them were saying, anything over $1.5 trillion is absolutely not going to fly with the Republican conference.

I asked Senator Ron Johnson, a Republican from Wisconsin. He literally threw up his hands and said, no, that's way too much money when I threw out the number between $1.8 trillion and $2 trillion, which is about where Pelosi and Mnuchin are negotiating at this point.

That just underscores how many differences there are, not just on what Republicans want in terms of a top line number, but also issues like liability protection, issues like unemployment insurance, how much money you give to state and local governments to get through this pandemic. All of those things are still outstanding when we just have a couple of hours until the self-imposed deadline.

You've heard the White House essentially saying that this is really the -- the speaker coming up with an artificial deadline. But I will tell you that if there is going to be a deal before the election, you have to come to an agreement in principle because it takes time to draft this legislation. It takes time to put it on the floor.

And, of course, we have a SCOTUS nominee happening in the Senate at the end of the week, into early next week. So that's going to take some time as well, Jim and Poppy.

SCIUTTO: And Republicans made a decision to focus on getting that nominee through before --

HARLOW: Yes, can --

SCIUTTO: Before the election.

I'm sorry, Poppy.

HARLOW: I mean, no, you're totally right, Jim. But I -- Lauren, I read your piece yesterday, but why? Like when Senator Ron Johnson and some others told you that, what is their reasoning? Is it that adding to the debt and deficit? Because even -- even the -- even the Fed chair said that's not an issue right now.

FOX: Well, I think there's really a disagreement about what the economy needs to boost itself. And I think that Republicans are arguing that if you did more targeting funding, this $500 billion bill that they voted on a few weeks ago, that they're going to vote on again tomorrow, the PPP program, extending that program, something they're going to vote on today, that that would get the job done. Republicans essentially arguing, you don't need to go as far as what Pelosi and Mnuchin are talking about. They want something a lot smaller, Poppy.

HARLOW: Gotcha.

SCIUTTO: Lauren Fox, thanks for bringing it to us from there.

[09:45:02]

Sometimes frustrating to watch from afar.

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Well, the FBI has warned about the dangers of the conspiracy group QAnon. So CNN went to one of their events. You can hear exactly what their followers are saying. It's disturbing. You'll want to see this piece.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:50:13]

SCIUTTO: You probably heard of it, Save the Children is a respected humanitarian organization that has been around doing great work for more than 100 years.

HARLOW: It has. But online supporters of QAnon have hijacked the charity's name as a way to spread baseless conspiracy theories about prominent Democrats, including former Vice President Joe Biden.

Our Donie O'Sullivan recently went to one of these QAnon events and you have to watch it to believe it.

Donie, what did you find?

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN REPORTER: Hey, Poppy. Yes, this conspiracy theory QAnon now extending beyond the Internet and on to American streets. We went to Los Angeles last week to a QAnon event. Here's what happened.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CROWD: (INAUDIBLE). Save the (ph) children. (INAUDIBLE). Save the (ph) children.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The fact that you guys are attacking us and making us look like we're crazy when we're just trying to save some (EXPLETIVE DELETED) children pisses me off.

CROWD: Save our children. (INAUDIBLE).

O'SULLIVAN (voice over): You might have seen people sharing the hash tag save the children or save our children over the past few months on social media, but much of this online activity has nothing to do with the respected and real Save the Children charity, which has been around more than 100 years. Its name Save the Children has been hijacked by followers of the QAnon conspiracy theory. In a statement, the charity has emphasized they have nothing to do with this movement.

CROWD: Save our children.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): If -- if I were an alien that landed down from Mars, how would you explain to me what QAnon is?

FREDRICK BRENNAN, FOUNDER, 8CHAN: So QAnon is just a way for Trump supporters to look at what Trump is doing and say, this doesn't match what I want. I thought he was going to kick out literally every illegal immigrant. I thought he was going to lock her up. That stuff's not happening. Why? They view it as, OK, Trump won the election, but Trump's not in control of the government. Actually, the deep state is.

Yes, I'm supposed to be the dragon and the cute butterfly there about to get eaten, hopefully.

O'SULLIVAN (voice over): Fredrick Brennan built 8chan, now known as 8chan, the website that helped spread QAnon and pizza-gate. He left the site a few years ago and has disavowed it.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): So Save the Children is -- is sort of a gateway, a soft run into QAnon?

BRENNAN: Correct, yes.

O'SULLIVAN: Because I've spoken to people who have organized Save the Children events and they're adamant. They say I'm not a QAnon believer.

BRENNAN: That's ridiculous. I mean just go to the event, right, and talk to people there and see what they believe in.

O'SULLIVAN: So you're a QAnon follower?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A hundred percent.

O'SULLIVAN: Got it.

SCOTTY THE KID, MUSICIAN/ACTIVIST: Talk about it. Why aren't you talking about it? Why are we not talking about all the kids that are going missing? Why? That makes me question you.

O'SULLIVAN (voice over): Scotty The Kid, a singer and activist, has been organizing these protests in Hollywood. Much like how they're coopted the name Save the Children, they've also seized on and are distracting from the very real and serious issue of missing and exploited children. Much of their focus instead is on conspiracy theories about Hollywood stars and Democrats.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Do you -- do you follow QAnon? The FBI says it's a dangerous conspiracy theory.

SCOTTY THE KID: Do I follow -- no, I don't follow QAnon. I follow the missing children. I have a child right now in Ohio that my team is saving. That's what I want to talk about, not a conspiracy. There's no --

O'SULLIVAN: You posted about Q -- you posted about QAnon yesterday, right? On your Instagram story?

ON SCREEN TEXT: According to the latest Q drop, John Podesta is going to be arrested on Saturday coincidentally the same day as our march!

O'SULLIVAN: So your mom watches CNN?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

O'SULLIVAN: So if your mom watches CNN, she's probably seen people like me on TV saying pizza-gate's a conspiracy theory. You don't believe it's a conspiracy theory?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, it's definitely not. Pizza is a code word for child pornography. Cheese pizza, child pornography.

BRENNAN: They believe that. They believe Hillary Clinton is a pedophile. They believe almost every high Democrat is a pedophile. Podesta, all of them. It's crazy.

O'SULLIVAN: How do -- what's going on with Tom Hanks?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you guys just want me to explain everything today, huh? Dude, it's all suspicion. That -- that's suspicion.

O'SULLIVAN: How do you know Tom Hanks (INAUDIBLE) --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you not know?

O'SULLIVAN: Prove a negative.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're reporting a non-fact --

O'SULLIVAN: How do you prove a negative?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because you don't know the information, you're saying it's a fact that they're not?

O'SULLIVAN: But neither -- but neither do you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're at an impasse then because we're reporting only the same thing.

O'SULLIVAN: But neither do you. But you have him on your sight and you're calling him a pedophile.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

O'SULLIVAN: But you don' t know that for a fact.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did they get to that position of power?

BRENNAN: Save the Children is a good message. Everyone wants to save the children. So they were putting this veneer of legitimacy on the Q stuff and the idea that there's a deep state cabal.

[09:55:06]

Going online and doing these kind of performative demonstrations, where your real target is political, not any actual abuse, you know, you're not helping any child by doing that.

O'SULLIVAN: Children going missing, those numbers, they're out there. They're legit. I guess the disconnect that I see, and I think maybe your mom might agree if she's watching this on CNN, is that, you know, this is a real problem, but then there's all this stuff online that seems, as your mom might say, a bit crazy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, what we're saying is crazy is the Satanists who are hurting children, not the people who are trying to expose it and save us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'SULLIVAN: Guys, you might wonder how do people get to the point where they believe all of this stuff to the point that they show up on the street and protest, all based off conspiracy theory. The answer is, they've been seeing this stuff online, on FaceBook, on YouTube, on Instagram, on Twitter for years. QAnon has been around for three years, but it's only recently that the social media platforms have decided to take some action against it.

Poppy, you interviewed the CEO of YouTube a few weeks ago and she had no answers, really, on what the company was doing about QAnon.

Last week then YouTube turned around and said, we're actually going to do a QAnon crackdown. Would you believe this weekend there was a separate QAnon event in Arizona. That entire event, all day long, streamed live on YouTube. Clearly the crackdown isn't working.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

And, listen, you know, Poppy, you and I have talked about this, right, it's not just talk. Someone with a weapon showed up at a pizza restaurant in Washington --

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Because he thought he was going to rescue children. I mean I bring it up because I had a child's birthday party there, right? There is no secret child conspiracy in that pizza restaurant and yet someone showed up with a gun.

HARLOW: Yes, you're so right, real -- real world violent consequences.

Donie, your reporting has been exceptional. Keep it coming. Thank you.

O'SULLIVAN: Thanks.

HARLOW: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)