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Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) and Steven Mnuchin Continue Meeting to Discuss COVID Relief Bill; Department of Justice Sues Google; Interview with Sen. Chris Murphy (D-CT). Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired October 20, 2020 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Are you nervous at all, coming out, knowing that you're seeing record numbers here in Wisconsin and with a positivity rate over 20 percent?

EDUARDO DE LA TORRE, WISCONSIN VOTER: A little bit. Because in the last election, I know they reduced the polling places down to five in the city, and it did create long lines. But just that situation kind of makes you think ahead and make a plan to vote So my plan was just to do it on the first day that I could and bright and early, there's not many people here right now so it's the best time to do it.

JIMENEZ: Of course. Well thank you, Eduardo. Be safe, thank you for taking the time.

And of course, Jim and Poppy, again, people here in Wisconsin, walking that line. Maybe more so than anywhere else in the country: significantly affected by the pandemic, but also knowing that Wisconsin could play a significant role in this election as well.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: For sure it will. Omar, thanks for being there, thank you for that reporting.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Right now, there are just hours left until House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's self-imposed deadline to reach a stimulus deal with the White House before the election, a package that would bring economic relief to millions of Americans before they vote.

HARLOW: And the president this morning is again saying he wants a very big -- bigger stimulus deal than what the Democrats want. But remember, I mean, he, like, cancelled this whole thing a week ago.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: Manu Raju is on Capitol Hill with exactly where things stand.

I think it is so tragic, A, that nothing has gotten done but B, that you know, it's back and forth. The president cancels it, well then I want a bigger deal. I mean, what is it?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And the Republicans are just simply not on the same page about what exactly should be included in this next round of stimulus. The Senate Republicans, in fact, are moving forward to bring up a bill that the Democrats have already blocked, $500 billions' worth of stimulus provisions including funding for schools, money for unemployment insurance -- not as much as the Democrats want. Democrats are expected to block that again.

And that $500 billion is nowhere near what Pelosi and Steven Mnuchin are talking about right now. They're talking about a plan around the $2 trillion range at the moment.

And even though the administration, the House Democrats appear to be closer on the price tag, there are just a whole score of policy issues that continue to divide the two parties, whether it's funding for schools, those jobless benefits, the level they should be extended by, the amount of money that should be given for the elections in addition to COVID testing and tracing, that has been a big sticking point for days, how that money would be divided. As well as funding for state and local governments, which has been a major sticking point for weeks and weeks. The two sides have gotten a little closer, but there are still significant divisions.

Pelosi wants to see if they can get a deal by the end of the day today because of the legislative process: it will take time to get through the House, to get to the Senate. And will the Senate even take up a deal that could be reached in this price range? Mitch McConnell has not committed to that yet. And Senate Republicans I talked to yesterday, Poppy and Jim, made very clear they were unlikely to get behind anything that big. So a lot of skepticism on the Hill that any deal can be reached that could pass before the election -- guys.

SCIUTTO: Yes. I mean, the gaps here are not just between Republicans and Democrats or the Hill and the president, but within the parties and among that -- the Republican Party. Manu Raju, thanks very much.

[10:33:16]

Fourteen days, as we've said, before Election Day -- 14 days -- the U.S. charges six Russian intelligence officers with major cyber- attacks against this country. Did Congress, did the Trump administration fail to protect our democracy with all we experienced in 2016? I'll be speaking with a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee who knows a lot about this, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Welcome back. So the Trump administration, the Department of Justice is suing Google today in what is the largest anti-trust case against a tech company in more than 20 years. Our tech reporter Brian Fung has been following this, he's on the story this morning.

I mean, this is the biggest, really, since Microsoft, right? What is the DOJ alleging here?

BRIAN FUNG, CNN TECH REPORTER: Yes, it's the biggest anti-trust case against a tech company in at least a generation here. What the DOJ is alleging is that Google controls 80 percent of the search market in the United States, and it's using its power to hurt rivals and damage competition.

Now, DOJ's deputy attorney general, Jeffrey Rosen, said nothing is off the table in terms of what types of remedies the DOJ is seeking here, which could include a break-up of Google.

And Google, for its part, says -- and let me just read you a quick statement here that they just put out -- that "Today's lawsuit by the Department of Justice is deeply flawed. People use Google because they choose to, not because they're forced to or because they can't find alternatives. We will have a full statement this morning."

Now obviously, this litigation comes days before a pivotal election in which tech companies including Google have been criticized for their role in, you know, affecting democracy. And this case could, you know, have dramatic implications not just for Google but also for the rest of the tech industry and the economy at large and with downstream effects for, you know, our elections.

HARLOW: Brian, can I ask you -- I interviewed Google's CEO Sundar Pichai a little over a year ago, and asked him about reporting that this case may be coming. And his answer to me essentially was, we know there's scrutiny, we welcome the scrutiny. They're getting the scrutiny now.

My question is, can they really force Google to break up? I mean, wouldn't that take many acts of Congress?

[10:35:01]

FUNG: Well, remember that Congress doesn't have the power to break up Google, only the courts do through antitrust law --

HARLOW: OK, OK.

FUNG: -- but remember, this is going to be a years-long process where the Justice Department will engage in fact-finding and documentary evidence-gathering for this court proceeding, and it could theoretically lead to a breakup of Google.

HARLOW: OK, Brian, thank you for the reporting -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Fourteen days to Election Day, millions of Americans have already voted. And my next guest says that Russia is right now actively trying to help President Trump win and doing it more so than in 2016.

With me now, Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut, who serves on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Senator Murphy, thanks so much for taking the time this morning.

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): Good morning.

SCIUTTO: So first of all, you spoke earlier this month about reports of "a multi-layer Russian effort to help Trump in 2020, bigger than what they did in 2016" -- I'm quoting you there from Twitter. How exactly? MURPHY: Well, let me just first be clear that it's not an allegation

being made by me or any other partisan that Russia is attempting to manipulate this election on behalf of President Trump, that is the assessment of the intelligence community, that is the DNI's assessment, the (INAUDIBLE) assessment.

And while, you know, they have not, you know, put a lot of meat on those bones to try to protect sources and methods, I can confirm that their campaign of misinformation and propaganda, interference is bigger, it's broader and it's more problematic than it was in 2016.

In particular because the Russians, this time around, have decided to cultivate U.S. citizens as assets. They are attempting to try to spread their propaganda in the mainstream media rather than just relying on, you know, bots and Facebook posts, as they largely were four years ago. And they've been successful. Rudy Giuliani's effectively a Russian asset at this point. (INAUDIBLE) I think, you know, made some significant ground above and beyond what they were doing four years ago.

SCIUTTO: That's a significant charge. And I do know -- and it is a fact -- that Trump's own Treasury Department has designated a person, a Ukrainian politician, who Giuliani has met with and contacted more than once, Andriy Derkach, they -- the Treasury Department -- has described him as a Russian agent for over a decade. But are you saying, in effect, that Giuliani is cooperating with Russian disinformation here?

MURPHY: Well, listen, I certainly can't, you know, say whether Giuliani knows that he has been put in the position of spreading Russian misinformation except that Derkach has been labeled a Russian agent, right? It has been fully disclosed that he is on the payroll of the Russian government.

And as recently as a few days ago, Rudy Giuliani is quoted as saying he's not sure if that's true, He said it's 50-50, whether Derkach is a Russian agent. No, no, no: It's not 50-50, it's 100 percent. Our own intelligence agencies have said it, our Treasury Department has sanctioned him.

And so the fact that Rudy Giuliani is still providing excuses to keep Derkach and the Russian FSB as a conduit to him of information that can harm President (ph) Biden, I think should make everybody a little bit suspicious about his motives.

SCIUTTO: OK. I want to talk about recently published e-mails purporting to document business dealings of Hunter Biden. And there are questions about this. The FBI, we know, is investigating whether they are or are not tied to Russian disinformation. I want to ask you directly, you have called these e-mails part of, quote, "a Kremlin- constructed anti-Biden propaganda campaign." Have you seen intelligence that backs that assessment?

MURPHY: So the very fact that these e-mails come into the public sphere from Rudy Giuliani, the fact that Andriy Derkach seems to know more about these e-mails than almost anybody else, tells you where they're coming from. I mean, at some point you sort of have to believe what you see, which is that --

SCIUTTO: Right.

MURPHY: -- when individuals who are either identified Russian agents or are conspiring with Russian agents, are providing the information upon which mainstream media are reporting, you have to understand what the deal is here. And again, I'm not alone here. Fifty high-level intelligence agents, people who have worked in the intelligence agencies, came out and said this is most likely Russian propaganda.

SCIUTTO: OK. There's the disinformation aspect of Russian interference, both in 2016, 2018 and 2020. There is the greater fear of Russian interference with actual voting systems. And in 2016, we knew that there were probing attacks into voter registration systems for instance, but -- and Obama warned Putin directly about this, saying don't mess with the voting systems, and it appears Russia did not.

[10:45:00]

In 2020, how concerned are you, how concerned is the intelligence community that Russia will take that next step and interfere with actual voting systems, registration, et cetera?

MURPHY: I believe that we are going to have a free and fair election. I don't believe that any American citizen should be worried about whether or not their name is going to show up on a voter list on Election Day, or whether their vote is going to be counted. And that's in part because we have spent significant money from the federal government and through states to beef up protections of our voter lists and of our voting systems.

So we certainly have less evidence that Russia is trying to manipulate the voting systems than we do that they're trying to manipulate the media narrative. And so I have pretty good confidence that we're going to be able to rebuff any attempts that Russia does make to try to compromise our voting mechanics.

SCIUTTO: I want to ask you a final question just about the vote, because there's a continuing legal battle under way about what is, in effect, voter access, right? How long absentee ballots will be counted, you know, do they have to be postmarked before Election Day, a whole host of things -- signature confirmation, witnesses, et cetera.

And a consistent dynamic of this is that Republican Party in states is for greater restrictions, and Democrats are voting -- are pushing, rather -- for broader access here. Why is that, in your view?

MURPHY: Well, I think Donald Trump and his acolytes know that if everybody votes, Donald Trump loses. And Republicans lose the Senate.

It's pretty extraordinary, Jim, when I came to the Senate not long ago, about, you know, eight years ago, Republicans and Democrats were for the Voting Rights Act. We all disagreed on plenty of stuff, but we agreed that we should help people vote. It is pretty amazing that voting has become a partisan issue, that

Democrats want people to vote and Republicans don't want people to vote. But that is what is playing out in dozens of courts all across the country. And the explanation is simple: If everybody in this country has the ability to vote, Donald Trump's not going to be the president for (ph) four years. But if the president is successful in keeping people from voting -- especially those people who may be antithetical to his candidacy -- then maybe he has a shot.

SCIUTTO: Senator Chris Murphy, thanks for joining us this morning.

MURPHY: Thanks.

HARLOW: All right, well ahead for us, China is rolling out an experimental vaccine in terms of trials, and people are lining up to get it. We're going to take you there for a live report, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:52:20]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. The British government and the city of Manchester have failed to reach an agreement on tighter coronavirus restrictions amid a sharp rise in new cases there.

HARLOW: That's right, Manchester's mayor will not lock down without more economic aid. Let's go back to our reporter today, Salma Abdelaziz. She is in Manchester with more.

What's the update this morning?

SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN REPORTER: It's actually been a very dramatic day, Poppy and Jim. Essentially we started this day hearing that there was a hard deadline of noon local time. And if by that time there is no deal reached, the government said it would unilaterally impose restrictions on the city.

Now, that deadline has come and passed. There's still no deal. We do understand that there were talks as recently as just a few hours ago between Prime Minister Boris Johnson and the mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham. We don't know the conclusion of those talks, but we do know that the government negotiator says that no agreement was reached, and he has advised the prime minister that there is no deal.

Essentially, the indication is -- there, is that the government will impose these restrictions on this city. The prime minister is set to speak in just a couple of hours, we'll find out more then.

But look at the bigger picture here. What this does is set a precedent for the country. Manchester has been negotiating with politicians now for 10 days. For 10 days, politicians have been bickering over money, over the deals, of the measures, over what should be restricted and what shouldn't.

So what's the strategy here? Is each town, city and region going to get to bicker with politicians for days on end while coronavirus cases rise? It's simply not a strategy to keep this surge in control -- Poppy and Jim.

SCIUTTO: Salma Abdelaziz in Manchester, thanks very much.

CNN's David Culver is in Shanghai, where people are lining up already for a limited experimental vaccine -- David.

DAVID CULVER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Jim and Poppy, this is kind of strange to have heard this surface here in China at first. I mean, it's seeming (ph) the first rollout to the general public, so we thought initially. Turns out there's some caveats for the folks who are qualifying for this.

But it's in a city about four hours from where we are here in Shanghai. It's called Yiwu, it's a city that's got a lot of international manufacturing exports and imports, and so it makes sense for the folks who want to travel abroad to get the vaccine.

What was fascinating to us, Jim and Poppy, is that you had people from all over China flocking to this city to try to get in line for this vaccine. And that tells us not that they were really concerned about the situation that they're living in right here -- because, quite frankly, it's near normal back in China -- but they want to get back to their lives in other countries. In Europe, back in the U.S. where you guys are, they want to resume that travel.

What's also interesting is it seems that they trust this vaccine. All of these vaccines are still in phase three clinical trials, they have not been formally approved and released here. But the trust is an issue that, especially when you go back to the initial handling of this outbreak, is something that surfaces in a lot of minds here. Mishandling, allegations of cover-ups, silencing of whistleblowers. All those things that we have covered.

[10:55:16]

But step forward to where we are now, and it seems, Jim and Poppy, that the Chinese government is not going to want to put something out there that's going to be ineffective, because obviously that could backfire in a major way.

HARLOW: Yes, it certainly could. Fascinated to follow how this goes. David Culver, thanks for the live reporting for us from China this morning.

And thanks to all of you for joining us today. We'll see you back here tomorrow morning. I'm Poppy Harlow.

SCIUTTO: And I'm Jim Sciutto. NEWSROOM with John King starts right after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: Hello everybody, I'm John King in Washington. Thank you so much for sharing this very busy news day with us.

[11:00:00]

We're two weeks from Election Day, and the United States, crossing a new gut-punch milestone in the coronavirus fight, 220,000 American deaths.