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COVID Surges Two Weeks Away from November Election; Debate Commission to Mute Microphones During Two Minute Statements; Trump Campaigns in Pennsylvania Amid Rise in COVID Cases. Aired 11-11:30a ET
Aired October 20, 2020 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:00:00]
JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everybody. I'm John King in Washington. Thank you so much for sharing this very busy news day with us.
We're two weeks from Election Day and the United States crossing a new gut punch milestone in the coronavirus fight. 220,000 American deaths -- 220,000.
The president this morning predicts another comeback win. Democratic nominee, Joe Biden, off the campaign trail today preparing for Thursday's final debate. The president though treks to Pennsylvania. That state, of course, a critical piece of his 2016 surprise. But polling this time shows him consistently trailing. In a morning Fox News interview, this closing message.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (via telephone): The bottom line: the American dream, the great American dream versus being a socialist hell hole. Because they're going to turn us into a socialist nation, we're going to be no different than Venezuela. And I'll tell you what, it can happen. It can happen.
All of the crime is coming out of Democrat states. Republicans are doing incredible on crime, on opening, on economic. It's all -- everything coming out -- crime and other problems, are in Democrat run states. And I hope people realize that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: That's the president view, but it is simply impossible to separate the campaign from the coronavirus. Look at the numbers and they show a resurgent virus right as voters are picking the president who will manage this pandemic response come January.
Monday you see it there, 58,000 plus new cases. That is the worst Monday since July 20th. That July 20th back at the peak of the summer surge. The country added 400,000 infections in the case count in just the last week. 16 states now recording the highest daily average of new cases.
The public health message is crystal clear. The United States never properly managed the first wave, making the second, more dangerous. It's just not safe to have Thanksgiving as normal. All the experts say that. And we won't know until the end of November if a coronavirus vaccine will work or not. The president's message though, stay the course.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN KILMEADE, CNN HOST: What is the plan to live with it while staying safe from it?
TRUMP (via telephone): Well, we are living with it and we're having the vaccines coming out very soon. With or without vaccines, we're rounding the turn. We will never shutdown.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: "Rounding the turn." The president says. Let's take a closer look at the numbers and you decide if you think this is rounding the turn. 31 states right now. That's the orange and red. Many of you familiar with this map. 31 states now trending in the wrong direction. Wrong direction, that means more new coronavirus infections right now compared to the data a week ago.
31 states trending up. Two of them, 50 percent more cases this week, compare Washington state and Rhode Island. 50 percent or more new cases right now than a week ago. 31 states trending up. 18 states, that's the beige, holding steady. Only one, only one, Hawaii, reporting fewer infections right now than a week ago.
You look at the case timeline and this is where it gets worrisome. The first hill back in March and April, came down, up to the summer surge. Came down but nowhere near far enough now heading back up. And look, you're right here now, Monday, just shy of 60,000 cases. You see the peak of the summer surge here. It is - sure looks inevitable that we're about to blow past that in the days and weeks ahead. We thought this was horrific. We're heading back up a hill right now.
Hospitalizations also trending back up a little bit in recent days. We need to watch that number. If there's a silver lining, and this is a horrible way to put it, but if there's a silver lining, it has been that so far, so far, 445 deaths yesterday, every one of them sad, painful to a family, friends, coworkers, and the like.
445 on Monday. This line so far has stayed below where many of the projections thought. Many of the projections thought as we had more cases this would start to go back up. Let's hope they stay wrong. Let's hope. It's because older people are protecting themselves. Treatments are keeping other people in better shape. Let's hope that one stays down.
Let's look at the positivity rate. The five states you see right here, this is the highest positivity in the country right now. 50 percent in Iowa. 50 percent, half of the people who test for coronavirus are coming back positive. 37 percent in South Dakota, 21 percent Wyoming, 29 percent Idaho, 46 percent Nevada.
We also see double digits in Kansas, in Nebraska. Double digits again in Florida, Alabama and Mississippi. A lot of double digits across the northern part of the country where yes, it is getting colder now.
In this political environment, some people say, what about states who don't have a mask mandate. What's the situation there? You noticed, four of the top five in terms of positivity, Idaho, Wyoming, South Dakota and Iowa are states that do not have a mask mandate. Four of the top five states in terms of positivity. Nevada being the fifth right there.
You look at this map. You look at the case timeline. You see a problem. You see a problem. Dr. Anthony Fauci says, example in recent interviews, be more careful, wear a mask, listen to public health experts, do not plan a crowded Thanksgiving. The president of the United States says don't listen to Dr. Fauci. He doesn't play fair.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The only thing I say, he's a little bit sometimes not a team player. But he is a Democrat and I think that he's just fine. It's a view, we have others. Scott Atlas is fantastic. But they go after him so much, he has a different view.
[11:05:03]
By the way, everybody has a different view.
WILL CAIN, FOX NEWS HOST: Sure.
TRUMP (via telephone): Different views are everything. Doesn't mean they are wrong or they're bad people. But people have different views.
CAIN: But to be clear, Mr. President --
TRUMP: And ultimately, I make the decisions.
CAIN: Of course.
TRUMP: And we've saved millions of lives by the decisions I've made.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Let's get straight to the White House to CNN's John Harwood. John, number one in the middle of a pandemic, interesting that you're picking a fight constantly with your top public health expert. Number two, in the closing days of a campaign as well to be picking this fight.
JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: It's very unusual, John. And the president's rhetoric on the pandemic and on Anthony Fauci is as detached from reality as those earlier bites you were playing on him on the economy. And predicting Venezuela and socialist hell hole. That sort of thing. Anthony Fauci is not a partisan figure. He served presidents of both parties since Ronald Reagan. And what we're seeing is that in polling, the American people trust Tony Fauci more than they trust the president on the coronavirus. And the entire public health community is rallying to Anthony Fauci's defense.
Here's Francis Collins, the director of the National Institutes of Health.
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DR. FRANCIS COLLINS, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH (via telephone): Tony Fauci is probably the most highly respected infectious disease expert in the world. He's also a terrific communicator, and I think the public has actually been greatly benefitted by hearing his unvarnished, unflinching descriptions of what's happening with this worst pandemic in more than 100 years. I have great confidence in him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARWOOD: And John, one more piece of evidence that the president is on the short side of public opinion in this fight with Fauci is in a New York Times/Siena poll this morning, 37 percent of the American people said they agreed that the worst is behind us. But 51 percent said the worst is ahead of us on this pandemic. That pretty closely mirrors Joe Biden's advantage over President Trump in national polling.
KING: It raises questions, number one, about the president's handling or mishandling of the pandemic and number two about his discipline as a candidate. You mentioned that Fauci is more popular in the polls. Let's just put some of it up.
This is from a Kaiser Health poll. It's back in late August, early September, but you see the numbers here. Who do you trust as the person reliable for information? 68 percent trust Dr. Fauci a great deal or fair amount. Only four in 10 Americans say that about the president of the United States.
And as you just played Dr. Collins, the head of the NIH. Here's Lamar Alexander, a Republican senator from Tennessee on Anthony Fauci. "Dr. Fauci is one of our country's most distinguished public servants. He has served six presidents, starting with Ronald Reagan. If more Americans paid attention to his advice, we'd have fewer cases of COVID-19, and it would be safer to go back to school and back to work and out to eat."
So, there you have a senior Republican also taking issue saying the president is wrong.
My question is when the president has asked this question, Fauci gave a "60 Minutes" interview. He batted the president into this. He gave a "60 Minutes" interview. The president gets mad. If the president was disciplined as a candidate, he would say I don't want to talk about that. I want to talk about Joe Biden's tax plan. I want to talk about whatever in the campaign, but he can't. HARWOOD: Absolutely he can't. The president, first of all, is not disciplined. We saw that in the debate a couple of weeks ago. Probably going to help him in the debate that they're muting his microphone because he hurt himself - his performance last time.
But look, Lamar Alexander is obviously correct. And the Trump campaign itself has told us that he's correct by including Tony Fauci in Donald Trump's campaign advertising. Why did they include Tony Fauci? It's because Americans believe Tony Fauci.
But the president at this point is trying to affirm his own world view, reassure himself that he is not bungled this. And so he's talking to people within a bubble that is separate from the facts and reality of the situation.
KING: John Harwood at the White House. John, appreciate the reporting and the insights. Joining our conversation now, we continue on this subject. Our CNN medical analyst and a former Baltimore City health commissioner, Dr. Leana Wen. Dr. Wen, it's great to see you.
In a sense, you know this isn't the end of a campaign. So, people just say, oh, it's just politics. Everyone is talking politics. But when you look at the case count right now and you look at the trajectory, and you look at all the states with a high positivity rate, some of them remarkably high, it's critically important that people watching at home understand who can I trust.
So, I want to start by this is Dr. Collins again, the NIH director, who without getting deeper in the politics as you may be hearing conflicting voices. Here, I think you should listen to these people.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS (via telephone): Trust the public health experts. They don't really have an axe to grind. Trust CDC. Trust Fauci. Trust the folks at the FDA who are trying to do their jobs. They don't have any particular reason to spin the information.
Consider the source. If you're trying to get public health information, it's probably good to listen to a public health expert.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: What is remarkable, and you're a public health expert, so I'm grateful again to have you here to help us sort through the spin, if you will, because that's the director of the National Institute of Health essentially saying don't trust the president.
DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Right. I mean, public health entirely hinges on public trust and specifically trust in our top government scientists.
[11:10:03]
In a pandemic we're asking people to do things that they normally would not do, even something like mask wearing. The American people didn't regularly wear masks prior to all this. Or contact tracing. Answering your phone and letting people know about all the individuals that you were in contact with or quarantine for 14 days after exposure. I mean these are all difficult things to do.
And the work of public health is challenging enough as it is. Then what that message is actually undermined by our top elected officials including the president. It makes our work many, many times harder. And I think we can directly attribute the implementation mask wearing, the inability of people to abide by basic public health guidelines to what happens when there is that misleading message. And frankly, it is costing us many thousands - tens of thousands of lives.
KING: The numbers on the screen are just I don't know what to call beyond depressing, 8.2 million cases in the United States, 220,000 deaths and counting up. You mentioned who do you trust. It is interesting at this moment because we are two weeks away from a presidential campaign. People are already voting. But we count the votes two weeks from today.
The case count is heading up and looks like it's going to pass the summer surge which was horrific enough. And it looks like we're heading up past that. Listen to the secretary of Health and Human Services. Unlike the president -- the president says we're rounding the corner. The president says tough it out. The president says we will be fine. The secretary of Health and Human Services says everybody needs to think about this as we head into Thanksgiving and the holidays.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEX AZAR, HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: We've seen a great deal of community spread from household gatherings. You can get disease from people that you're related to, as well as from people you are friends with, as well as from neighbors, and you can transmit too. We have to carry forward being careful with each other right now even as we enter the holiday season.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: That's a straightforward, fact-based message from the secretary of Health and Human Services. But we do not hear that from the president as he travels the country in these packed rallies.
WEN: Right. I mean, imagine what could be done if the president had, instead of attacking Dr. Fauci and public health, imagine what would happen if he were to say to people, look, it's so important for everyone to be wearing masks. We could literally be saving tens of thousands of lives if the president spread that kind of message.
And Secretary Azar is correct that the latest surge that we're seeing is a lot of it is being driven by gatherings of family and friends, extended family and friends. And I'm really worried about this in particular as we head into holiday season, when the weather is colder, that many more people be gathering indoors.
And I think it's unnatural for us to think this way, right? It's unnatural for us to think all those people that we love and trust, could also be carrying the virus. But this is a silent killer. This is a virus that if we're not going to be inviting strangers into our house, we should also not be inviting loved ones into our house either because they could very well be carrying the virus and infecting us.
And so, I would actively encourage everyone at this point even though the federal government should absolutely be doing much more and it is the failure of the federal government's response that we're in this position but we have to protect ourselves. So make sure not to gather indoors, unless they're with your immediate household to keep up with mask wearing and social distancing.
KING: Dr. Wen as always grateful for your advice and insights. Thank you.
WEN: Thank you.
KING: Ahead for us, the final debate. The second and final debate is Thursday night. And there will be a new feature. The mute button.
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[11:17:45]
KING: The president spends most of his time these days talking at his rallies or on Fox News, which is to say largely talking to people who are already in his corner. To mount a 2020 comeback, the president needs to pick up people who are still undecided and to peel away people planning to vote for Joe Biden. Which makes Thursday's second and final debate a high stakes affair for both candidates.
There will be a new twist this time. The debate commission says it plans to use the mute button. So, the candidate gets the full two minutes they are allowed to answer questions. That is in response of course to the president's constant interruptions in the first debate. He was the one ignoring the format. He was the one ignoring his campaign's agreement with the commission. But that isn't the president from trying to play victim.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP (via telephone): Look, these people are not good people, this commission. A lot of funny things go on with them. But I do it this way. I mean, I do it anyway. But this is the way it is. It's so set up. It's pretty incredible that we've been winning for so long.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Joining me now is CNN political correspondent Abby Phillip and Matt Viser, national political reporter for "The Washington Post."
If the president has a bad night, ladies and gentlemen, it has to be rigged, right? Somebody has to be acting against him.
Abby, it is interesting though, the commission is not really changing the format. It's just saying it's going to use the technology at its disposal, including the mute button. And then it says in announcing this decision, the candidate gets a question, it will give them the full two minutes to answer. Meaning, the other guy's mike will be muted. The commission says, "We realize, after discussions with both campaigns, that neither campaign may be totally satisfied with the measures announced today. One may think they go too far, and one may think they do not go far enough. We are comfortable with these actions strike the right balance and that they are in the interest of the American people, for whom these debates are held."
It is a process argument but it's an important process argument because the president did just blow through the rules in the first debate.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, it's an impossible situation that the commission was put in, largely because of the president's behavior in the first debate. And so, they knew that by doing this they would inviting this kind of criticism.
But the reality is that this shouldn't even have to happen because the rules are that you get two minutes to answer your question and then there is an opportunity for the candidates to engage with each other, to talk to each other or even over each other in some ways if that's what the situation calls for.
[11:20:07]
But, you know, part of this is that -- I think the strategy at this point is what you just said. Playing the victim. The president says he's winning. But he's been complaining that everything is rigged against him. And that is part of the strategy. It's a base strategy. But it's not actually one that I think really helps him in the context of this debate on Thursday.
KING: And Matt, there's an old conversation in politics, if you are whining, you are not winning. And the president is doing a lot of whining right now about the rules, about the moderator, about the polls, about a lot of things. Our polling team, our political team did a great job. They have gone through these 10 states that we view as the battleground states. And they've averaged all the recent polls. So, you don't invest in just one poll.
Here are three of them here. There are 10 in all we've look at. Seven have close races, in these three, these are the former blue wall states that President Trump flipped in 2016. You see Biden above 50 in Pennsylvania, above 50 in Michigan. Above 50 in Wisconsin.
The president stuck at 43 percent in all three of them. This debate as the president many would believe, last chance if you're going to have a national dynamic to change the national dynamic and what has been a national race. Those three states essentially staring down the president right now.
MATT VISER, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, "THE WASHINGTON POST": He needs a big game changing moment. Which is why frankly he can whine about the rules, but he doesn't have all that much leverage. Because he needs this debate much more than Joe Biden needs this debate. If circumstances stay as they are currently. And two weeks is a long
time in politics, so a lot can change. But if they stay as they are currently, all indications are that Joe Biden is in the enviable situation, as you elude to the polls, those state and national polls, the Biden campaign at this moment feels quite good about the current circumstances.
So, the debate is an important moment for Trump. And for him to have some sort of moment where -- that the contours of this race and the way that we're looking at it right now are changed and changed quite dramatically. And I think Democrats at this moment, you know, they feel comfortable. But, you know, there is a little bit of deja vu looking back four years ago, feeling a similar feeling that people are feeling now where their candidate is in the lead.
KING: Right. And then that is -- Democrats are spooked. They're haunted by 2016. They simply are. And so, you look at those 10 battleground states, Abby, and again, seven of them are pretty close. Biden has a chance to win them all, there's a chance to lose them all in those seven.
So, part of this is a strategy decision. They have money to be on television everywhere. But in terms of what they emphasize most, you have a gold bold strategy which says send them to Texas. Send them to Georgia. Go back to Arizona a couple of times, or you have a play safe strategy which says Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania. Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, maybe a little Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania. Which will they choose?
PHILLIP: It seems that they're choosing the fundamentals. The Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania. I mean if you look at the map, and John, I know you do this because you're always at the magic wall. But look at the map.
Joe Biden if he secures Pennsylvania, his path is dramatically easier. It is much easier for him to get to 270. The same is true if President Trump secures Florida. His path becomes dramatically easier. So, deviating from that strategy would not make any sense, particularly for the Biden campaign. Yes, it would be great to play in Georgia, to play in Texas, to play in Ohio. But they don't have to do any of those things in order to win.
And what they can do, because they are in a -- in the enviable situation financially is they can spend money on ads here and there. They can test the waters. They can send surrogates. They can send virtual surrogates given the coronavirus situation.
But it's all about Pennsylvania. If you're in the Biden campaign right now, it's about holding out of those midwestern states and making sure that you have Pennsylvania in your column and then this ride is a lot easier come November 3rd.
KING: 20 electoral votes. You hold that big basket, makes it harder for everybody else. And Matt, you write about this in the paper today. Democrats are spooked. In part of it what thinks they're spooked about disinformation, misinformation, late surge in social media, you write about this effort internally called the "Malarkey Factory," dozens of people around the country monitoring what information is gaining traction digitally whether it's resonating with swing voters. And if so, how to fight back.
The three most (INAUDIBLE the tax, the "Malarkey Factory" has confronted so far, claims Biden is a socialist, that he's creepy, sleepy or senile. Explain how this works. And these is obviously part of Democrats remembering 2016. And those states we just talked about, they changed late in part because of Trump activity and other activity, nefarious activity on social media.
VISER: Yes, The Biden campaign is very well aware of that. And so, over the last two months they pretty quietly built up this multi- million dollar effort that involves dozens of people around the country involved with the campaign and other Democratic consulting firms called the "Malarkey Factory" where they are trying to identify things early that are trending on Twitter or Facebook. And sort of address them or fit in that there's a big challenge in figuring out which things to address and which things to address and which things to let slide and not amplify.
[11:25:12]
So, they're doing this throughout the campaign. They also have 5,000 different followers, big influencers on Twitter and Facebook, who are responding to some of these attacks on behalf of the campaign. But it's a major lesson from 2016.
And the Biden campaign seems very well aware of that. And particularly heading into the election, when Facebook restricts the new ads that campaigns can take out they're going to be relying on a lot of these surrogates to fight back if there is misinformation, either from the Trump campaign or from foreign actors. I think the Biden campaign is monitoring both of those through this constellation of groups and staffers.
KING: And for folks who only tune in for politics late in the campaign, "Malarkey" is going to make a comeback if Biden wins the presidency. It will be one of the many Bidenisms were.
Abby Phillip, Matt Viser, appreciate the reporting and the insights.
Up next for us, as we noted President Trump is about to go to Pennsylvania. That state right now reporting a big surge in coronavirus cases.
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