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Fauci: States Skipping Over Reopening Benchmarks To Blame For Surges; Early In-Person Voting Begins Today In Hawaii, Utah And Wisconsin; Chief Justice John Roberts Sides With Liberal Justices On Pennsylvania Mail-In Ballots Ruling; U.K. Wants To Pay People To Be Exposed To Virus For Vaccine Trial. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired October 20, 2020 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00]

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DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY & INFECTIOUS DISEASES: -- in what risk category, you, as an individual are in.

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JOHN KING, CNN HOST: What you find most significant there?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, everyone's talking about the vaccine as a single entity. And I think what's becoming increasingly clear, John, is there's going to be many, at least a few different vaccines, they may come out at different times. There's clearly people who should be at the front of the line, high risk healthcare workers, people who are vulnerable.

What I think is interesting is that, let's say you're a young person -- for an older person, the vaccine should really reduce the likelihood that you get very sick, obviously. For a younger person who should do that as well, but the larger concern with the younger person is that they are going to transmit this virus as we're just talking about, even if they don't get sick, or even have any symptoms. So, the effectiveness of a vaccine for a different population, a younger, healthier population, maybe to decrease viral load in the nose, in the mouth, even more than reducing illness.

Ideally, they should do both. But the point is that different vaccines may be more appropriate for different people at different times. And that sort of scheduling is something that they need to work on now because that demand is going to happen right away within the next couple of months, John.

KING: Another interesting thing from that conversation you had most recently yesterday with Dr. Fauci was this idea of how did we get here, right? You mentioned beginning back in April, the conversations, well, if you go back, you know, first there were the 14 days to stop the spread. And the White House extended that, then they put out very detailed guidelines for reopening that most public health experts said pretty good.

You had this tiered system go through, wait two weeks. If you pass the test, go through. A lot of states blew through them, though. And that was a concern of Dr. Fauci. Listen.

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FAUCI: When things began to open, they skipped over the benchmarks and the gateways and the different phases, and in some areas, essentially let it fly as it were. So, we wound up getting these surges. And when you get a surge, Sanjay, you have such a level of community spread, that it makes containment and control very, very difficult.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: That's in the context of the summer surge. When you could apply that right now, Sanjay, if you look at the positivity map across the country, you look at the case counts of new infections every day. We're at another very dangerous spot.

GUPTA: Yes, John, I mean, it is interesting to go back and sort of think about that time period, initially with these gating criteria which is, you know, I mean, that was released from the White House, from the task force and almost immediately thrown out the window. Really, as we went back and dug into this, there was really not a single state that really did abide by the gating criteria.

You just mentioned, we can show you again, 14-day downward trend of cases. Why is that so significant? Because if you did the modeling on this, you realize no matter where you started, if you went down two weeks in a row, 14 days in a row, it would bring the viral transmission down to a containable level in your community. You add on to that testing and enough hospitalization and flu-like illness or COVID-like illness going down for 14 days as well. And all of a sudden, you were in a containment situation, as opposed to a mitigation situation.

We never got there. And as a result, we've been playing catch up all along. Lowest we get was, what, 20,000 cases per day. And as you mentioned, we're now going back up and it's, you know, obviously a bad season in terms of clustering of people and likelihood of exponential growth.

So, gating criteria would have worked. The five basic pillars of public health would have made a difference and can still make a difference, you know, wash hands, wear a mask, socially distance, avoid large indoor cluster areas such as bars. If we still do that, John, within a few weeks, Dr. Fauci says four or five weeks, just do those five things for four or five weeks, we could bend the curve. That's not a vaccine, that's not a new therapeutic. That's no magical or miraculous sort of intervention, it's those five things you see on the screen. Can we do that as a country? Because if we can, we could turn this thing around.

KING: We could, and back to those gate line -- the gateway put up by the White House, you had a green light, a yellow light, and a red light. Within days of announcing them, again, they were widely praised by public health experts within days of announcing the President said pay no attention to them, and urged states to reopen.

Another conversation you had, this is with Dr. Fauci back in August, where he takes a personal experience of yours and relates it to where we were in fighting the pandemic. Let's listen.

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FAUCI: You are a real world example of why we've got to do better. I mean, to say, and I know I've been in situations like that, I can get things done medically. So, fast, it'll spin your head. There you were in the operating room having to put on PPE, because you didn't know what your pay -- I mean, that is totally unacceptable. And for me to say anything different is distorting reality.

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KING: Explain the personal story there, but especially the end there. For me to say anything different is distorting reality, that has been the trademark of Dr. Fauci through this even though the President keeps attacking him for telling the truth.

[12:35:03]

GUPTA: Yes, he was very blunt there. I mean, you know, the situation was, and I just shared it with him, was that I had been operating the day before. Typically, when you're operating, you want to make sure the patient that you're about to operate on doesn't have COVID, get a COVID test. We were able to get a CT scan, a cardiac echo, we're able to check coagulation profiles in this patient, we were about to remove a brain tumor, and yet we couldn't get a COVID test on that same patient.

And this was, you know, I think it was sort of July, even maybe August timeframe. What was -- what had to happen then, John, was that all of us in the operating room had to go into full personal protective equipment, wear the N95 masks, the shields. We always wear, you know, gowns in the operating room. But we were using personal protective equipment that are typically reserved for COVID patients because we couldn't get a $5 COVID test, despite the fact that we're about to do brain surgery on somebody.

So, it was absurd. At that point in the pandemic, clearly, even in a hospital, a patient about to have surgery, couldn't get a COVID test. I shared it with Dr. Fauci and he agreed. We are still nowhere close to where we need to be on testing. Maybe a million tests a day, which is a lot more than we used to. But some experts say 4 million, 5 million, even 20 million a day are what's necessary. It's a long ways away still, John.

KING: Long ways away at a very difficult moment. Dr. Gupta, appreciate your insights, looking back and forth. Thank you.

Up next, we go live to Wisconsin where early in-person voting begins today. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:41:31]

KING: Breaking news just into CNN, the First Lady Melania Trump will not travel to Pennsylvania with the President as plan. Melania Trump was to attend her first rally in more than a year in Erie, Pennsylvania today. Remember, she just recovered from coronavirus. Her spokeswoman saying First Lady is recovered but she has a lingering cough and out of just caution, precaution she will stay at the White House and not attend that rally. We'll continue to track that story.

Today, early in-person voting begins in Hawaii, Utah, and in Wisconsin. A big battleground states. CNN Omar Jimenez is with us now live from Milwaukee. An important day in a critical state, Omar.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, for starters, the balance of COVID safety and the duty of voting as an American is perhaps being balanced. No more so than anywhere else in the country than here in Wisconsin. You see this line here in downtown Milwaukee. It's a line that's actually shrunk significantly from what we saw in the early morning hours where some people were waiting up to two hours when the polls first open.

Lines again have gone down but, you know, people came prepared, chilling, out in their chair, masked up. That's a 2020 move if I ever seen one. And everybody here coming to pay their civic duty and two voters we spoke to earlier spoke about the significance of making sure they came out and had their voices heard on this first day of early voting in Wisconsin.

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ERIN SCHULER, BIDEN SUPPORTER, FIRST-TIME VOTER: What happens in this election is just so consequential. I think we've seen with the pandemic, with racial issues, with women's issues, the Supreme Court, I mean, anything and everything is on the ballot in this election.

KENT CARLSON, TRUMP SUPPORTER: I surprised to see early voting first day, pretty much lines around the block. It was more excitement, enthusiasm than I expected.

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JIMENEZ: And, of course, this is all happening within the backdrop of the pandemic. If you remember back on April 7th in the primary here in Wisconsin, there were concerns over the COVID situation then but then the positivity rate was a little under 10 percent. Now, months later, that positivity rate is well over 20 percent. But people still coming out masks up, coming to make their voices heard. John?

KING: Big day in Wisconsin. Grateful, Omar Jimenez on the ground for us watching it all play out. Omar, thank you so much.

President Trump today calling crazy, that's the President's word, a Supreme Court ruling that gives Pennsylvania more time to accept and count votes. The High Court ruled ballots can be counted if they are received up to three days after Election Day, even if the postmark is not legible.

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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Pennsylvania's pretty even. We got a ruling yesterday that was ridiculous, where they can count ballots after the elections over. What kind of a thing so? So, that does that mean, we're going to wait --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Roberts.

TRUMP: -- we're going to wait after November 3rd and start denouncing states. It's crazy. But we got a strange ruling from the Supreme Court yesterday that was very strange.

KING: It was a split 4-4 decision. The Chief Justice John Roberts siding with three liberal justices.

With me now is CNN Supreme Court Analyst Joan Biskupic. Joan, the Chief Justice taking some shots again today from conservatives.

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SUPREME COURT ANALYST: That's right, John. And, you know, the President referred to it as a ridiculous ruling. But that was a decision that affirmed essentially let stand a Pennsylvania Supreme Court decision that said that because of the pandemic, because of more people voting by mail and because of mail delays, they had to extend the deadline for up to three days after Election Day. And they did it under their -- under the Pennsylvania State Constitution.

[12:45:05]

So, it -- that court grounded it pretty securely. But here what you had a familiar picture, John, of John Roberts siding with the liberal side of the court to produce this deadlock that lets the Pennsylvania Supreme Court decision stand. And as I said, we've seen this before. He is still a true conservative in many ways, but in some of these highly visible, partisan drenched cases, with lots of Americans watching to see what the Supreme Court will do, he will shift to the left and produce these kinds of outcomes.

It's not going to be a long lasting pattern, though, John, because the Chief Justice has had unprecedented control as both the chief and at the center of the ideological spectrum that -- but that will all change next week when Amy Coney Barrett, presumably will be approved by the Senate and come on. And she has a record, John, that is far to the right of the Chief Justice. And President Trump himself has said that he wants her on the Supreme Court, just in case an election dispute goes to the justice system. He says there should be nine there.

So these are very important issues, and we could be headed for a very decisive Supreme Court ruling that could affect whether President Trump can fight off challenged by former Vice President Joe Biden. John? KING: Without a doubt. More cases in the pipeline. We will see, a, how many make it to the court and then, b, how it all turns out. Joan, grateful, the important insights there on the chief.

Up next for us, the U.K., get this, wants to pay its citizens to expose themselves to coronavirus.

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[12:51:30]

KING: Ireland is going into nationwide lockdown tomorrow because of a dramatic spike in coronavirus cases. Leaders say the country will move to its highest level of alert for the next six weeks.

Our global headlines now from our correspondents around the world.

DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm David Culver at the Yiwu, China. And this is a city, it's really about four-hour drive outside of Shanghai. The reason we're here is because this is one of the first places where China is releasing the COVID-19 vaccine, one of many that they have in phase three trials. And you can see folks are gathering around this community hospital. A lot of them are going through that one entrance, getting their temperature checked and then trying to inquire a bit more as to how they can be part of this.

We learned over the weekend, they had several people received the vaccine. However, one hospital worker telling us today they have just run out. Folks here standing by for when new supplies come in.

PHIL BLACK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Phil Black in London where the government has announced it wants to pay for volunteers to be exposed to the coronavirus. This hospital will host human challenge trials where young healthy people receive a potential vaccination. Then in a secure facility, they're later deliberately dose with the virus. The government believes this could be a more efficient way of assessing and identifying the most promising of the many vaccines being developed around the world.

Critics say challenge trials are limited because of the need to use young healthy volunteers who don't represent those who most need protection from an effective vaccine. And there are risks because there is no guaranteed treatment for COVID-19.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Fred Pleitgen in Moscow. As Russia has set another grim record in combating the novel coronavirus, the authorities here registering more than 16,000 new infections in the span of 24 hours for the first time. Now, the epicenter here in Russia remains the Capitol in Moscow with almost 5,000 new infections in the span of 24 hours.

And the authorities have introduced some measures to try and get things under control. They're keeping certain classes of schools at home and making them do long distance learning. They're also counting on older people to stay at home as much as possible, and telling companies to keep a certain amount of their workforce in home office as well.

At the same time, the Russian authorities don't seem to be counting on a vaccine that Russia approved without actually going through the main trials for safety and efficacy to be available anytime soon for the broader population. But the Russians do say they believe that they can avoid a lockdown to the entire country.

KING: Up next, the World Series starts tonight.

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[12:58:14]

KING: The World Series starts tonight, will be the Tampa Bay Rays making just their second ever World Series appearance taking on the National League's Los Angeles Dodgers. The World Series will put a cap on a most unique baseball season that of course was delayed for months by the coronavirus pandemic.

CNN's Sports Andy Scholes live for us in Arlington, Texas where the series is being played. That is another of the new twists. Teams from L.A. and Tampa playing in Texas.

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: Yes. Yes, John, this is the first ever neutral site World Series as Major League Baseball has the Dodgers in the race. Here in Arlington, Texas in a semi-bubble they're going just between the hotel and the ballpark. There's no traveling, no going out to eat as the league. You know really is trying to avoid any kind of COVID outbreak like we saw with the Marlins and the Cardinals during the regular season.

Now they're going to have about 11,000 fans here at Globe Life Field for the World Series just like they did for the national championship series. Fans have to wear masks and be spread out throughout the stadium in order for them to keep a social distance. And this is actually going to be the first time this entire season that the rays will be playing in front of fans and all the players saying they were pretty excited about that when they were speaking with the media leading up to the World Series yesterday.

Now, these two teams were built in very different ways. The Dodgers have one of the highest payrolls in all of baseball while the Rays, they have one of the lowest Tampa Bay, they have never won a World Series while the Dodgers they have not won one since 1988. And, you know, John, whoever wins this World Series really is going to spoil their fan base. The Lakers just won the NBA title for the city of Los Angeles a couple weeks ago while the Lightning won the Stanley Cup for Tampa a month ago.

Very rare for a city to win two major sports championships in the same year. You're pretty familiar with that though, because you're Red Sox and Patriots did it just two years ago, but it's still pretty rare.

KING: I think I'm supposed to root for Mookie Betts. Still hard, though, Andy, still hard. Enjoy the games. Thanks for joining us today. Hope we see you back here this time tomorrow. Brianna Keilar picks it up right now.

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