Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Trump Rachets Up Anti-Science Rhetoric Ahead of Election; The Strategy Behind Trump's Attacks on Fauci; U.S. Stimulus Deal Hangs in the Balance; COVID-19 Cases Spiking Across the U.S. Aired 4-4:30a ET

Aired October 20, 2020 - 04:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[04:00:00]

ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us here in the United States and all around the world, you're watching CNN NEWSROOM, and I'm Rosemary Church.

Ahead, just two weeks until election day, President Donald Trump goes on the attack against Dr. Anthony Fauci. Why the President described the country's health experts as idiots.

Plus, the clock is ticking, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin have hours left to reach a deal on a critical stimulus plan if they want it passed by November 3rd.

And would you take an experimental coronavirus vaccine. That's what these people are doing in China as the country offers one to some members of the public for the first time.

Good to have you with us. So, with just two weeks to go before the U.S. election, President Donald Trump is ratchets up his anti-science rhetoric at packed campaign rallies, this as he keeps downplaying the deadly coronavirus pandemic. Mr. Trump's latest strategy, attacking the nation's top infectious disease expert. On Monday, the President called Dr. Anthony Fauci a disaster and other health officials idiots.

Meanwhile, coronavirus cases are spiking in dozens of states across the country. Hospitalizations are up too. It is a problem for the President. One that will certainly come up during the Presidential debate later this week. Mr. Trump is already saying he thinks the moderator will be unfair. We get more on the President's day from CNN's chief White House correspondent Jim Acosta.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With the election day fast approaching, President Trump sounds like his running not against Democrat Joe Biden but against the man who's arguably the nation's most trusted health expert on the coronavirus, Dr. Anthony Fauci.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't want to hurt him. He's been there for about 350 years.

ACOSTA: The president his day of attacks on Fauci on a call with campaign staffers.

TRUMP: People are tired of COVID. I have the biggest rallies ... people are saying whatever. Just leave us alone. They are tired of it. People are tired of hearing Fauci and all these idiots. Fauci is a disaster. If I listened to him, we'd have 500,000 deaths.

ACOSTA: Fauci got under the president's skin appearing on "60 Minutes" where the infectious diseases expert said he wasn't surprised when Mr. Trump contracted COVID-19.

ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: I was worried that he was going to get sick when I saw him in a completely precarious situation of crowded, no separation between people and almost nobody wearing a mask. Nothing good can come out of that. That's got to be a problem. And then sure enough it turned out to be a super spreader event.

ACOSTA: Drawing thousands of supporters who aren't wearing masks, the President is on an anti-science crusade at his rallies, accusing Biden of siding with the experts on the virus.

TRUMP: Biden wants to lock it down. He wants to listen to Dr. Fauci.

He'll listen to the scientists. If I listen totally to the scientists, we would right now have a country that would be in a massive depression.

ACOSTA: Biden responded to that charge of listening to the scientists with one word on Twitter, yes. Contrast that with Fauci who said he's been muzzled by the White House.

FAUCI: You know, I think there has been a restriction, John. But it doesn't -- it isn't consistent.

ACOSTA: The President snapped back at that remark too.

TRUMP: He gets a lot of television. He loves being on television. We let him do it. Sometimes he says things that are a little bit off and they get built up unfortunately.

ACOSTA: But sources have told CNN for weeks that the President has opted to listen to the questionable advice coming from another doctor on the coronavirus task force, Scott Atlas, who tweeted a post had said, masks work? No. A comment removed by Twitter because it violated the social media platforms rules. As most experts believe masks are effective.

Atlas has become such a lightning rod, "The Washington Post" reported task force coordinator Dr. Deborah Birx complained to the vice president's office about him. In the meantime, the President is escalating his attacks on Biden.

TRUMP: Joe Biden is a criminal and he's been a criminal for a long time. And you are a criminal in the media for not reporting it.

ACOSTA: Biden is asking voters to reject the president on character grounds.

JOE BIDEN, U.S. DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Words of a president matter. The words this president has used that our children have heard, our sons and our daughters, have been despicable.

[04:05:00]

ACOSTA: A Trump advisor questions the President's decision to attack Fauci two weeks before the elections, saying the campaign is already struggling to keep up with Biden's massive spending advantage.

Adding, time is running out. Being outspent is a problem. No one ever thought we would be outspent. Time is our enemy. The President is more confident.

TRUMP: We're going to win. I would've said that three weeks ago, three weeks ago, two weeks ago. I don't know, I would've said it.

ACOSTA (on camera): A campaign advisor said the President's attacks on Dr. Fauci are ill-advised as they remind Americans of Mr. Trump's handling of the coronavirus pandemic, a subject campaign official desperately want to avoid.

Jim Acosta, CNN, the White House.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHURCH: Democrat Joe Biden doesn't have any campaign events scheduled today but his wife does. Jill Biden has four stops scheduled in the crucial swing state of Michigan, which Mr. Trump won four years ago.

Meanwhile, the President has a rally planned in Erie, Pennsylvania. First daughter Ivanka will be campaigning in Wisconsin, then North Carolina. Donald Trump Jr. has two events in Pennsylvania, and the President's daughter-in-law, Laura Trump will campaign in Nevada and Arizona.

Joining me now via Skype is Chris Kofinis. He is a Democratic strategist and former communications director for John Edwards. Good to have you with us.

CHRIS KOFINIS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Thank you. Good to be here.

CHURCH: So, President Trump was clearly not happy with Dr. Anthony Fauci's "60 Minutes" interview Sunday. Attacking him Monday, calling Dr. Fauci an idiot and a disaster, and saying people are tired of the virus. All this coming as infections surge. And two weeks before the election, he is picking on this most respected doctor. Why would the President be doing this? How dangerous is a strategy like this?

KOFINIS: Well, I mean, if there is any logic to the strategy, it's that he is targeting his base. There is no question that, you know, in our research, the research that we've done, Republicans have a very different view of the virus. Of the various measures to address the virus than Democrats do. And so, in a weird way, and now it's not logical. It's definitely not presidential. But it is strategic as much as Trump can be strategic because he has clearly come to terms or come to the terms with the simple fact that if he doesn't get his base out, he doesn't have much of a path to victory.

So that's the only logical reason because on the flip side of that, you know, those kinds of attacks alien out -- alienate independents. They alienate the undecided voters. So, there is not a lot of, you know, strategy there to try to win over new voters. This is about bringing his voters out as much as this can.

CHURCH: And his rival Joe Biden put out this statement warning his party and supporters not to get complacent, and this despite polls showing Biden in the lead. When you look at all these reputable polls, do you understand though why you, Democrats, are still very wary because of what happened in 2016? And do you see any path to victory for Donald Trump? Or you're just not willing to accept that you've got this in the bag?

KOFINIS: Well, the ghosts of 2016 are pretty hard to exercise. I mean, they are -- they still haunt the Democratic Party and the country, you know, and it's almost four years later. So, I think when people look back in 2016, what they saw were a lot of missed signs, a lot of missed signs in terms of the base where the president had at that time.

I think a lot of signs in terms of the level of dissatisfaction that there was towards both campaigns. But we really focused on Trump especially in the media and others. So, I think when you boil it all down, it's really hard to forget, you know, how this happened in '16. So, I think people are, you know, understandably and rightfully concerned and nervous about 2020. You know, is this going to be a repeat of 2016?

There are some obviously profound differences. He's running as an incumbent. He's got a record. I think people have seen his schtick for about four years now. And there is, you know, clear evidence in our research that voters are tired even his own supporters.

CHURCH: Chris Kofinis, thank you so much for joining us.

KOFINIS: Thank you so much.

CHURCH: The final debate of the U.S. presidential election will take place Thursday night in the U.S. Our coverage begins at 7:00 p.m. Eastern, which is Friday morning in much of the world.

Well, millions of Americans are waiting to see if U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Treasure Secretary Steven Mnuchin can agree on an economic stimulus plan to help people hurt by this pandemic. Pelosi set today as the deadline to agree on a deal if it's to pass before election day.

[04:10:00]

She has blamed Republicans for holding up the deal while the Trump administration blames her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK MEADOWS, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: Well, obviously there's more than just the White House that's negotiating, the 48-hour deadline is certainly welcomed by us. We thought that there should have been a 48- day deadline 48 days ago, and it's been really the Speaker that continues to be very rigid in her negotiation. You know, it's her way or the highway. It's all or nothing. The American people don't understand that. Many of her Democratic colleagues don't understand that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: And they continue to play politics. CNN's John Defterios joins us now live from Abu Dhabi. Good to see you. Millions of Americans have been plunged into poverty due to this pandemic, and they are relying on these politicians to come up with a stimulus deal. How likely is it that they'll do this?

JOHN DEFTERIOS, CNN BUSINESS EMERGING MARKETS EDITOR: Seems very unlikely by this deadline, Rosemary. We have a case here where the benefits are dropping because they were extended but at a lower level, and the COVID caseloads as we saw in the reporting that we've had in the first block here of the show, are spiking. You would think those issues alone would break this political log jam.

But we have three major players. Let's take a look. Nancy Pelosi -- who was mentioned by Mark Meadows, the chief of staff at the White House -- Steven Mnuchin, the Treasury Secretary negotiating on behalf of the White House, according to our sources in Washington said they're now willing to go to $2 trillion. But Mitch McConnell, the Senate Republicans have never budged off of a half a trillion dollars.

So, the issue is not really Nancy Pelosi. Yes, she's maintaining a tough line, but we have a division between the White House and Senate Republicans. This is a Republican led White House, by the way, so not a clear good line of support for the President that he cannot rally his own party who are very worried about the election, number one and their own seats in the Senate because of this spending.

Also, another case about city, state bailouts, the Democrats want it because there's large pensions that need to be funded, namely for union members. So, Senate Republicans are against that. So, you can see the politics at play here.

How did this play in the markets? We have the Asian markets after that juggernaut on Wall Street, pretty stable with the exception of Tokyo which has been trading lower. And if you look at U.S. futures, again, after 1 1/2 percent drop mainly across the board on Monday on Wall Street, you see them trending higher. So, it's a good sign that they're trying to shut out the noise.

And one other caveat here, Steven Mnuchin is in the Middle East where I'm at, Rosemary, it makes it very difficult for him in the last 24 hours or last 12 hours, however you want to count it, to negotiate with Nancy Pelosi. They're very far away on numbers, and far apart geographically.

CHURCH: Yes, you don't feel like there's the political will for this. We'll see what the outcome is. John Defterios joining us live from Abu Dhabi, many thanks.

And when we come back, a grim warning from the top health official in the U.S. What he says about family gatherings for the holidays in just a moment.

[04:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHURCH: A scary and sobering message from the top health official in the U.S. on Monday. Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar made it very clear that one way to control the spread of COVID-19 is to practice social distancing, even from your family. His message coming just weeks before the holiday season that traditionally brings U.S. families together.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEX AZAR, U.S. HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: And we've seen a great deal of community spread from household gatherings. So, just people having friends and neighbors and family members over and not practicing the precautions of, you know, washing your hands, watch your distance, and wearing your facial coverings, when you can't watch your distance because you think in your home you're safe, you think people know you're safe. We try to remind people that you can get disease from people that you're related to, as well as the people you're friends with, as well as from neighbors.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: And that warning comes as cases are spiking all across the United States. CNN's Nick Watt has the details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Chicago is now averaging more than 500 new COVID cases every day, the most since late May.

MAYOR LORI LIGHTFOOT (D) CHICAGO: Make no mistake. We are in the second surge. These numbers are extremely troubling. And are consistent with what we've been seeing across Illinois and, really, across the country and world.

WATT: In 14 of our states right now a test positivity rate so high it tells us the spread is out of control. In Utah, average case counts now roughly double their summer surge.

FAUCI: You cannot say that we're on the road to essentially getting out of this.

WATT: Cruel irony, Connecticut and New Jersey with cases climbing now appear to qualify for the COVID travel restrictions they imposed on other heavily infected states.

AZAR: People are getting tired. The American people have given so much. We're seeing mitigation fatigue right now. And you know, I just hope that we have so much promise in the weeks and months ahead.

WATT: A vaccine? Well, a week after Johnson & Johnson paused its trial following an illness in a volunteer the company and the FDA won't tell CNN if that volunteer was actually receiving the vaccine or even if this is the first pause.

MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH AND POLICY: We do have vaccines and therapeutics coming down the pike. But when you actually look at the time period for that the next six to 12 weeks are going to be the darkest of the entire pandemic.

WATT: This past month nationally the average number of new cases a day exploded, up 40 percent.

LARRY BRILLIANT, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: There is nothing to stop this the way things are going.

WATT: But there is a silver lining of sorts. The death rate per case has declined.

BRILLIANT: And it's a tribute to modern medicine. We have tools in our arsenal now.

[04:20:00]

WATT: But we still do not fully understand the long-term impacts of this virus on the millions who make it, fatigue, difficulty concentrating, lung issues.

FAUCI: The other thing that we're seeing that's a bit disturbing is that the degree of cardiovascular abnormalities by scans and by other diagnostic tests, it may be insignificant, but I don't know that now.

WATT (on camera): Several studies show that this virus can attack the blood vessels, the lungs, and the muscles in the heart, that could lead to fatal consequences further down the line.

Meanwhile, here in California the governor has created a scientific safety review workgroup to look at any vaccine that's approved by the Food and Drug Administration before it is rolled out in California. A sign of just how little California trusts the federal government in the Trump administration.

Nick Watt, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHURCH: Joining me now is CNN medical analyst Dr. Jonathan Reiner. He is a professor of medicine at George Washington University. Thank you, doctor, for being with us.

DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: My pleasure.

CHURCH: Now I do want to start by getting your reaction to President Trump repeatedly lashing out at Dr. Anthony Fauci Monday, calling him a disaster and an idiot. What do you say to a U.S. president who attacks this country's top infectious diseases expert in the midst of a pandemic?

REINER: Yes, it's indescribable. I don't understand the politics. And there's no way to understand the public health benefit for that. It's kind of like being on an airplane in a thunderstorm and hearing a fight going on in the cockpit. It's very disquieting to see this kind of chaos coming from the White House.

Anthony Fauci is a preeminent scientist and physician. He's been that way for 40 years. He understands what -- he understands very well what needs to be done now. The President just doesn't want to hear it and he is lashing out at Dr. Fauci.

I wonder sometimes whether what bothers him most is that the public's perception of Dr. Fauci as substantially more favorable than the public's perception of the president? I wonder if that is what bothers him the most.

CHURCH: Right, and of course Dr. Fauci says U.S. COVID cases are high because this nation hasn't shut down as much as other countries. Not early enough, and not for long enough. But he's not advocating a national shut down just yet. He wants to see every American wear a mask.

If they did that right now, could that avoid a shutdown? And at the same time, can it turn this around, if of course, in conjunction with that we had better testing in place?

REINER: Absolutely. Look, the goal is in any pandemic, the goal is to achieve some form of herd immunity. Now the usual way to do that, the most efficacious way to do that is with the vaccine which I think we'll have very, very soon. But another way to get herd immunity is for 80 percent of the population to wear a mask. Masks are very effective at preventing transmission. Masks also prevent the person wearing them from acquiring the virus. And if more than 80 percent of this country wore masks, we would effectively have herd immunity.

Now the way the President's now principal adviser Scott Atlas wants this country to attain herd immunity by basically letting the virus rip through large portions of this country, essentially unabated, would result in the deaths of probably at least two million people in this country.

So why don't we start with the masks? Let's start with something simple like that and very effective. And let's see where it takes us before we start shutting down. Why not do what's easiest first?

CHURCH: Yes, it does seem to be the easiest and the most obvious solution here. But medical experts are very concerned about the weeks ahead, expecting the darkest days to be in the next 6 to 12 weeks. The U.S. death toll already makes up 20 percent of all global deaths. How bad are you expecting this to be by the end of 2020?

REINER: Well it's already getting bad. If you look at the most recent seven-day moving average of cases in the United States, it's now at 57,000 cases per day. We're averaging about 700 or so deaths per day.

[04:25:00]

If we start to tick up from here, if we get to, let's say, 70,000 cases per day, that's going to equate to about 1,500 deaths per day. And then you can really start to get a sense for how the deaths continue to mount.

CHURCH: Dr. Jonathan Reiner, thank you so much for joining us.

REINER: My pleasure.

CHURCH: Well, here in the United States, there's been record turnout for early voting in the presidential election. We will look at who's casting these ballots.

Also, ahead on CNN NEWSROOM, a pointed message to the Trump campaign. John Fogerty is standing up for his song and taking action to keep it from being played at the president's rallies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN FOGERTY, MUSICIAN, SINGER, AND SONGWRITER, (singing Fortunate Son): Ooh, their red, white and blue And when the band plays "Hail to the Chief" Ooh, they point the cannon at you, Lord

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHURCH: President Donald Trump is on the campaign trail with two weeks left until election day in the United States. Despite COVID-19 cases rising across the country, the President continues to attack the country's top medical experts. On a campaign call, the President said the U.S. was ready to move on from COVID-19. He then made disparaging remarks about Dr. Anthony Fauci and other health experts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: People are tired of COVID. I have the biggest rallies I've ever had, and we have COVID. People are saying whatever. Just leave us alone. They're tired of it. People are tired of hearing Fauci and all these idiots, these people, these people that have gotten it wrong. Fauci is a nice guy. He's been here for 500 years. He called every one of them wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: The President's team has confirmed he'll take part in Thursday's debate with Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden. But Mr. Trump, and his campaign are already claiming the debate.