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Trump Abruptly Ends White House Interview; Republican Groups Spending Millions against Trump; Race for a Vaccine; Coronavirus Pandemic Worldwide; Tough Restrictions on Manchester; U.K. to Infect Volunteers with Virus in Vaccine Trials; Airlines Test New App to Verify Passengers' Health Status; Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer in Interviewed on Alleged Kidnapping Plot; Grand Jurors in Breonna Taylor Case to Be Allowed to Speak. Aired 12-12:45a ET

Aired October 21, 2020 - 00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Hello and welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm John Vause.

Coming up on CNN NEWSROOM, final stretch: with millions of Americans already voting early, Trump and Biden now rallying their base and trying to win over the rare and most elusive of all voter, the undecided.

Manchester braces for a pandemic lockdown it did not want. Tough medicine from a prime minister whose new plan to control the second wave of the virus is falling apart.

Desperate, times desperate measures. The U.K. set to directly infect volunteers with COVID-19 to learn which potential vaccines work and which do not. The health risks and ethical questions surrounding human challenge trials later this hour.

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VAUSE: Since the very start of the campaign, the messages and actions coming from both Trump and Biden have been worlds apart. With 13 days until the election, closing arguments from both candidates could not be more different.

Donald Trump returned to the battleground state of Pennsylvania on Tuesday. He warned a Biden administration would end fracking and kill the American dream. Earlier, he labeled Biden a criminal, urged an investigation by the attorney general but did not specify what should be investigated.

The president also abruptly ended a White House interview with a respected journalist, falsely claiming she would not wear a mask.

Joe Biden spent the day off the campaign trail preparing for Thursday's final debate. His wife made a number of campaign stops in Michigan.

Meanwhile, early voting is now underway in Wisconsin. The president won the swing state by less than 23,000 votes four years ago. In Pennsylvania, the president performed his greatest hits for his supporters, complaining about the media, Dr. Anthony Fauci, China and other stuff. Aides say not exactly the message they were hoping for in the campaign home stretch. Here's CNN's Kaitlan Collins.

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KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: As the president was rallying his supporters in Pennsylvania on Tuesday night with two weeks to go before the election, he had at one point seemed to recognize the dire position he's in when it comes to political polling. Because he said if it had been before the pandemic, he likely wouldn't have even been in Erie, Pennsylvania.

He basically told the crowd he had to show up given that his poll numbers right now are behind those of Joe Biden in Pennsylvania, a state that he carried in 2016.

That rally came just a few hours after the president had sat down with CBS's Lesley Stahl at the White House for an interview for "60 Minutes," at which we are told the president ended the interview before it was scheduled to be done, after about 45 minutes because he grew frustrated with the line of questioning from Stahl.

And we're told he left the room and did not come back to do what was supposed to be a taped portion of the interview with the Vice President, Mike Pence. And of course, then you saw the president go on Twitter. He taunted Lesley Stahl for at one point during the briefing -- or during the interview not wearing a mask.

And then he threatened to release the interview before CBS News airs it next Sunday. Of course whether or not he ultimately does still seems remains to be seen, but what you are seeing with these two weeks to go before the election is the president is making his closing message attacks on reporters like CBS News, attacks on other reporters as well, including the debate moderator for Thursday night for that final presidential debate, but also on Dr. Anthony Fauci, someone he has repeatedly gone after in recent days.

And this is not exactly the closing political message that aides had hoped he would have, given the fact that he is trailing Joe Biden in so many states with so few days left to go -- Kaitlan Collins, CNN, traveling with the president in Pennsylvania.

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VAUSE: Joining me now from Oakland, California, Tim Miller, political director for Republican Voters against Trump, host of the "Not My Party" on Snapchat.

Great to have you with us. I want to start with more from the Trump campaign rally, the likely superspreader event in Erie, Pennsylvania. Listen to this.

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TRUMP: He will massively raise your taxes, bury you in regulations, dismantle your police departments, dissolve our borders, confiscate your guns, Second Amendment.

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TRUMP: Oh, you're so lucky I'm president. You wouldn't have a second amendment. Eliminate private healthcare, terminate religious liberty, destroy the suburbs.

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VAUSE: In case you didn't pick it up, he's talking about Joe Biden, the antichrist. None of that is actually true.

Does it look to you like Trump kind of knows the reality TV presidency will not be renewed for a second season and he's moving on to the new role of Trump TV, an aggrieved old white man giving voice to aggrieved old white men across the U.S.?

TIM MILLER, POLITICAL DIRECTOR, REPUBLICAN VOTERS AGAINST TRUMP: Don't jinx it, John. I don't know. I can't get inside his head. This is a person that was told last time by the top people in his campaign that he was going to lose on Election Day. He thought he was going to lose in 2016.

They told him he needed to stop tweeting, behave better, soften himself and he didn't listen to them last time and he won anyway.

So I think that when you have that kind of experience, a narcissist like this president, it is hard to tell him to do anything other than what comes out of his natural id, which is that and all the other kind of weird grotesqueries and sidebars that he had today in Erie.

And I think that is putting a ceiling on his capability to add voters as we head down the final stretch. But I don't think we are seeing someone who has just given up.

VAUSE: Over the last couple of, days we have seen some of the craziness come out, this mad King George feel, Trump has been dancing on the stage to the Village People in North Carolina. Then he launches into all familiar attacks at the usual targets. Listen to this.

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TRUMP: You turn on CNN, that's all they cover. COVID, COVID, pandemic, COVID, COVID, COVID, CO-uh-huh.

You know why?

They're trying to talk everybody out of voting. People aren't buying it, CNN, you dumb bastards. We had this thing won. We were so far up. We had the greatest economy

ever, greatest jobs, greatest everything. And then we got hit with the plague.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: If you say that he is still in the, game what is the strategy here?

Can you explain?

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MILLER: I don't think this is a 4D chess move. This is just Trump emoting, lashing out at the people who have been mean to him, lashing out at his enemies and hoping that it works again. I think it's as simple as that. I don't think there's a lot of deep thinking involved.

But I think one of the reasons this is different than 2016 is what he's talking about with the virus. He is very out of step with even some of his own voters about whether or not to take this seriously.

We hear at Republican Voters against Trump, in our focus groups, which we only talk to people who voted for Trump last time that are on the fence now, they say they thought they would get a business man who would get stuff done and cut deals.

They see him out here amidst this massive crisis not even trying to do anything for them, actually making fun of the idea that he should do something. A lot of them are disillusioned by that. And I think that's why you see his poll numbers down from where they were in March and from where they were the last time when he won.

VAUSE: The Lincoln Project is another group of former Republicans and they've produced some devastating anti-Trump campaign ads. Here is part of one.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): To save Americans, we must change presidents. On November 3rd, vote like your life depends on it.

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VAUSE: So we go from the deadly serious, essentially, to ridicule again another campaign ad from The Lincoln Project.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (to the tune of "Don't Cry for Me, Argentina": "Don't cry for me, White House staffers, the truth is I will infect you all through my tweeting, my mad existence, I broke my promise, won't keep my distance."

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VAUSE: It is a great, ad. But despite millions of dollars being spent trying to convince Republicans not to vote for Trump, in Erie, Pennsylvania, they were still chanting this.

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TRUMP: They did a good job, I wouldn't have run. Thank you. Thank you.

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TRUMP: "We love you. We love. You."

Regardless of what happens in the next couple weeks, is this the end of the GOP?

Does it survive as a cult if the cult leader is no longer there at some point?

MILLER: First of all, with The Lincoln Project, what we are doing in our vetting, and we working together, I don't think either of us are trying to get the number down to zero supporters for Trump. We recognize that he has a very rabid fan base.

But I think there is a lack of appreciation for the fact that, last time, 15 percent that was unprecedented in American modern polling of his own voters said they had an unfavorable view of him.

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MILLER: So it was actually quite a big swath of swing voters that are gettable. I don't think there is an appreciation for that a lot of times in the media and among other pundits. That's what we are talking to.

As far as the future of the GOP is concerned, I wrote about this for "Rolling Stone" last week, I don't think the party is dead. I think the party is Trumpist. Because of the American system, the Republican Party could thrive as a minority party just doing well in the whitest states, the most rural states in the Midwest and South and across the Mountain West. The party could still have 48-50 senators by just focusing on those voters.

So I think that's the future of the party. It's not something I see The Lincoln Project or us going back to. But I don't think it will just magically go away either because of the way our system works.

VAUSE: It's not exactly where the party thought it would be. That's a good point to finish upon. Thank you for being with, us we appreciate it.

MILLER: Anytime.

VAUSE: Take care.

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VAUSE: Military leaders in the U.S. usually stay out of politics. But the retired admiral who oversaw the Navy SEAL raid which killed Osama bin Laden is endorsing Joe Biden. William McRaven says he's a strong conservative but the country is heading in such bad direction under Trump, it needs new leadership

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ADM. WILLIAM MCRAVEN (RET.), U.S. NAVY: The fact of the matter is Donald Trump has been dismissive. You saw very early on in his presidency how he treated the NATO members.

Now, I got it.

Has NATO been living up to its 2 percent of GDP to support the NATO alliance?

No. But there are better ways to handle it. And you don't, you don't disrespect some of our colleagues and our allies that have been around with us for 75 years. That's not the way to strengthen the alliance. That's not the way to push back against Russia.

You look at the trans-Pacific partnership. Here was an opportunity to bring in 40 percent of the GDP in terms of our allies to be able to leverage that against China. And Trump elected not to do that.

So, yes, what I know will happen under Biden is that he will be respectful of our allies. He will build those alliances. He will strengthen those coalitions. And that's exactly what we're going to need going forward.

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VAUSE: Now to the latest on the coronavirus. Infections in the U.S. are soaring at levels not seen in months. Mooring (ph) 14 states have reported their most COVID hospitalizations ever in the past week. Experts say it's all evidence of the difficult northern winter which we will soon be facing. Here is CNN's Brian Todd.

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BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: At this nursing home in northwestern Kansas, an unmitigated disaster. 100 percent of its residents, 62 people, have tested positive for the coronavirus, county health officials say. And 10 residents have died.

DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: In congregate settings like nursing homes, this is a disease that could spread like wildfire. And this in fact is what we have seen before in nursing homes and tragically what we are seeing in this nursing home in Kansas as well.

TODD: Kansas is one of 31 states trending upward in new coronavirus cases tonight, only one state, Hawaii is dropping and 16 states, nearly a third of the country, are experiencing their highest seven- day averages for new cases since the pandemic began. One expert says the next four or five month's maybe the worst period of the entire pandemic.

DR. PETER HOTEZ, PROFESSOR AND DEAN OF TROPICAL MEDICINE, BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE: We are at about 70,000 new cases a day. Probably by next week or the week after, we could be looking at a doubling of the number of deaths by the week after the inauguration.

TODD: Dr. Peter Hotez says things will get better by next summer, but that Americans have to get ready for some horrible numbers in the meantime and hang on. In Illinois, one of the states trending up in cases, officials say almost every region in the state has seen an increase in COVID related hospitalizations over the last week. And tighter restrictions on gatherings are coming.

STEVE BRANDY, SPOKESMAN, WILL COUNTY ILLINOIS HEALTH DEPARTMENT: It didn't happen by itself. People are being careless. People are getting cocky. People are thinking it's not going to happen to me. It's over. No, that is all wrong.

TODD: The Williamsburg section of Brooklyn in New York City is not in a so-called red zone of coronavirus hotspots there. But state officials barred a planned gathering in that neighborhood for the wedding of the grandson of an orthodox Jewish rabbi, a gathering where they say up to 10,000 people were expected to attend.

JUDITH HARRISON, ASSISTANT CHIEF, NEW YORK POLICE: We don't want to disrespect anybody. People are allowed to gather, but within reason. We want to make sure that there are no large gatherings in excess of 50 people.

TODD: As communities fight off outbreaks, the race for a vaccine gets more intense. The British government is planning to conduct the first so-called human challenge studies, where healthy volunteers are deliberately infected with the virus.

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TODD (voice-over): And some receive an experimental vaccine.

China says nearly 60,000 people have been injected with experimental vaccines during its phase three clinical trials. While in the U.S., the Health and Human Services secretary says officials hope to have enough vaccine by late March or early April to vaccinate everyone in America who wants one. But a leading vaccine expert puts that timetable a bit later.

DR. PAUL OFFIT, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF PHILADELPHIA: Early next year, you will start to see these vaccines rolling out to the highest risk group's first. And then by the middle of next year, the end of next year, hopefully we will then be getting more to the general public.

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VAUSE: Thanks to Brian Todd for that report.

Meantime, the number of coronavirus infections worldwide has surged past 40 million. High numbers in Europe and the Americas, where the second wave of the pandemic has arrived, leaving governments struggling to slow the spread.

In Europe, where the number of fatalities is also soaring leaders, are re-imposing closures, lockdowns and curfews. Italy's Lombardy region, once an epicenter of the outbreak, will start a new curfew on Thursday. So too in Naples, on Friday.

Curfews also under consideration in Spain, among the country's worst hit during the first wave of the coronavirus.

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SALVADOR ILLA, SPANISH HEALTH MINISTER (through translator): We have very tough weeks ahead. Winter is coming. The second wave is no longer a threat, it is a reality, in all of Europe.

The second wave is not a threat that could happen but is now a reality in all of Europe. It is the verification that the virus is present and circulating around us, in all of Europe and in Spain.

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VAUSE: We will hear about the new restrictions in Germany and the Czech Republic in a moment. But first, CNN's Matt Rivers with the very latest in Latin America.

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MATT RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Argentina has now become the fifth country around the world to record more than 1 million confirmed cases of the coronavirus. Argentina now joins a list that includes the United States, India, Brazil and Russia although Argentina really stands apart from those four countries.

All four of those countries have major populations, while Argentina has less than 50 million people. What we see is the government over the last few weeks has started to ease lockdown measures that in some parts of the country have been in place going back all the way to March.

And as a result, we have seen infections really begin to rise quite quickly in Argentina. Now Argentina is certainly not alone in dealing with the coronavirus outbreak in Latin America. In fact, over the next few weeks, we do expect Mexico, Peru and Colombia to all cross that 1 million case threshold.

And if you consider globally what's going on, if you look at the top 10 countries in terms of the country that have recorded the most coronavirus cases, five of those 10 countries are here in Latin America -- Matt Rivers, CNN, Mexico City.

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SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Scott McLean in Berlin, where chancellor Angela Merkel is urging people to meet with as few other people as possible, even to stay home if you can.

Last week, Merkel met with state leaders to agree on a set of restrictions for virus hotspots but some part of the countries have gone even further. One popular vacation area, near the Austrian border in the mountains, has just implemented a 2-week stay at home order, with exceptions for work and essentials.

Meanwhile, in the Czech Republic, the health minister there has just announced, starting tomorrow, you will need to wear a mask, even outdoors, in urban parts in the country.

Now there are some exceptions but this mask mandate is nearly as strict as the one that was in place in the spring. That mandate set the Czech Republic apart and also helped make the first wave of the virus barely a blip on the radar.

But over the summer months, as the number of cases started to increase, Czech health experts were urging the government to re- implement the policy. But at the time, the populist prime minister, who had once even suggested that President Trump adopt the policy as well, said no.

The Czech Republic is now reporting more new cases in the virus per capita than any other major country on Earth -- Scott McLean, CNN, Berlin.

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VAUSE: Well, north versus south in England for pandemic restrictions, when we come back, Manchester leading a rebellion against the prime minister and his new plan, as he tries to control an outbreak of coronavirus.

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VAUSE: British prime minister Boris Johnson is imposing tougher coronavirus lockdown measures on Greater Manchester in northern England. It follows failed negotiations between Johnson and Manchester's mayor over financial support.

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BORIS JOHNSON, U.K. PRIME MINISTER: We made a generous and extensive offer, to support Manchester's business. I want to stress, this offer was proportionate to the support we've given Merseyside and Lancashire.

The mayor didn't accept this unfortunately. Given the public health situation, I must now proceed with moving Greater Manchester, as I say, to the very high alert level because not to act would put Manchester's NHS and the lives of many of its residents at risk.

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VAUSE: Under the tier 3 lockdown, socializing indoors and in private gardens banned. Bars and pubs will be forced to close. Manchester's mayor wanted about $116 million U.S. in aid but the government would provide just $28.5 million.

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MAYOR ANDY BURNHAM, MANCHESTER, ENGLAND: It's brutal, to be honest, isn't it?

This is no way to run the country, in a national crisis. It isn't -- this is not right, they should not be doing this, grinding people down, trying to accept the least that they can get away with, 22 million pounds to fight the situation that we are in is, frankly, disgraceful.

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VAUSE: Prime minister Johnson is resisting calls for a nationwide lockdown, instead imposing localized restrictions.

For more, let's go to Dominic Thomas, in L.A.

Dominic, good to see you.

What is bizarre to me about all of this, on the surface, it seems to be an odd negotiation. Even this new alert level of lockdown is needed to save lives, all it is not, we should believe the mayor of Manchester with the weekend to play but out of all of this it seems Boris Johnson is the one who is looking weak, unable to implement his own plan.

DOMINIC THOMAS, CNN EUROPEAN AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: Yes, I think you're right, John. Here we are, more than 7 months into this COVID crisis and the British government obviously has not handled this well.

And here we find ourselves yet again, facing these harsh measures, lockdowns and so on. And I think it's really less of an issue of the mayor of Manchester not really believing health precautions are necessary but rather that the people that he represents in the Greater Manchester area have been going along with this for 7 months now.

And the dramatic impact of COVID on this particular population and on businesses there and what he's doing is advocating for some kind of safety net that will safeguard people's livelihoods and so on in the particular region.

So it's less of an issue of challenging the need for help but rather to do then under circumstances that provide for the people in his community.

VAUSE: Here's a little more from the prime minister, appearing to the local leaders, whom he could not reach an agreement with.

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JOHNSON: Despite their failure to reach an agreement, I hope the mayor and council leaders in Greater Manchester will now work with us to implement these measures.

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VAUSE: Over the last couple of days, that seems pretty unlikely, so is this effectively sort of the blueprint of how other cities will now defy the orders?

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VAUSE: Effectively just, saying hey I'm not doing it?

THOMAS: Well, we've seen all sorts of signs, on the other end of the political spectrum. It has to be with rights issues and wearing masks and so on and so forth.

But I think what we have here is once again, as I mentioned, you know 7 months plus being into this particular crisis, is essentially people frustrated with the lack of any real kind of coordinated government plan.

People are finding themselves with very little choice but to go to work. And they are unable to go back into lockdown. And I think, out of this particular failed negotiation and the imposition of tier 3 level on the Greater Manchester areas, I think we're likely to see examples of sheer civil disobedience, a lack of respect for the rules that are put in place. Not so much because people want to defy their government but because they are being left with very little option but to fight back in this particular way, without adequate government support, to keep these businesses going and to keep the people with proper safety nets.

VAUSE: How much of this is being driven by old animosity in the north country towards Westminster?

THOMAS: You know, John, it's probably not just even the north. I think the people who don't live in the southern part of England, if they're in Northern Ireland and Wales, Scotland, they feel this as well.

But it's clear that there is a long-standing animosity and Andy Burnham, as an MP, a member of the cabinet in the Labour Party, was very outspoken about these kinds of discrepancies that existed between the ways in which the north was treated by Westminster.

But I think the COVID has further exacerbated those tensions. And what we see here, is a mayor standing up for his city, who is 7 months into the COVID crisis, is struggling and cannot simply go through another round of lockdowns or tier 3 like levels, on businesses, without there being the proper safety nets from the government.

So I think that's as much of a factor, as it is to be positioned in some kind of longer historical track record as well.

VAUSE: Just very quickly, there are reports that these two sides spending just 5 million pounds part. The mayor asking 65 million pounds and the prime minister offering 60 million. But they wouldn't budge?

THOMAS: You know, I think this is really more about Boris Johnson's own position. The last thing he wants is having many members of his cabinet in the Conservative Party, it's going into further lockdown. He's under tremendous pressure to keep businesses open and running.

And without any regard for health considerations and I think that the last thing he wants to be doing is not only shutting down businesses but giving out substantial amounts of government money to the people to support them in these particular areas.

So he's fighting a political battle back in his own party, at the expense of the people living in these regions.

VAUSE: As always, good to see you, we appreciate it.

THOMAS: Thank you.

VAUSE: We'll take a break, when we come back, scientists are calling for volunteers for a COVID vaccine trial. This one comes with a twist, you will have to be infected with the deadly virus. For which there is no cure right. Details on challenge trials, when we come back.

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JOHN VAUSE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Well, new trials of a coronavirus vaccine will soon get underway in the U.K. Only this time, volunteers will be deliberately infected with COVID-19 to test the effectiveness and the safety of vaccines in production.

[00:30:53]

Now, already there have been some enthusiastic volunteers, signing up for what's known as human challenge trials. For more, here's CNN's Phil Black.

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ALASTAIR FRASER-URGUHART, 1DAYSOONER VOLUNTEER AND COORDINATOR: Yes!

PHIL BLACK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Alastair Fraser-Urguhart desperately wants to be infected with the coronavirus.

FRASER-URGUHART: I've just got the email!

BLACK: He's part of the campaign group 1DaySooner. It's been busy recruiting COVID-willing volunteers, so far tens of thousands around the world, and lobbying the U.K. government to use them for potentially risky research.

FRASER-URGUHART: I wake up thinking about challenge trials. I go back to bed, thinking about challenge trials.

BLACK: Challenge trials involve giving healthy people a potential vaccine, like this one, developed by London's Imperial College, then later testing it by deliberately dosing them with the virus.

FRASER-URGUHART: By taking that small risk on myself, I can potentially protect thousands of other people from, you know, having to be infected without consenting to it.

BLACK: Advocates say challenge trials are more efficient than the usual method of waiting for large numbers of test subjects to be exposed to a specific virus in the real world. With numerous COVID-19 vaccines being developed, some scientists think challenge trials could help identify the best of them sooner.

DR. MARTIN JOHNSON, SENIOR MEDICAL DIRECTOR, HVIVO: At the moment, governments are just having to buy at risk lots of different vaccines, hoping that one of them is going to work.

BLACK: Dr. Martin Johnson works for hVivo, the testing company hired by the British government to set up challenge trials for three possible vaccines. Its London facility has years of experience running similar programs with influenza and other viruses.

But working with this new coronavirus is far riskier. The trials will be conducted at London's Royal Free Hospital, which has the U.K.'s only Category 3 bio containment ward. And the first round of volunteers will be exposed to the virus without getting a vaccine.

JOHNSON: We're basically watching disease in motion right from the very start of inoculation, right through to the disease going out of the body. So it gives us an absolute view of what is happening to -- to the human body during an infectious process.

BLACK: The company says challenge trials can be conducted safely, because treatments are now available, like the antiviral Remdesivir and the steroid dexamethasone.

But the World Health Organization recently found Remdesivir doesn't appear to save COVID-19 patients' lives or help them recover sooner. And the data on dexamethasone is still early and limited.

The ethics of the trials will be closely scrutinized. England's regulator will have to be convinced the risk is worth the potential reward.

TERENCE STEPHENSON, CHAIR, ENGLAND'S HEALTH RESEARCH AUTHORITY: A challenge trial would have to make the cogent argument that the benefits to society greatly outweighed the risk and that that evidence or those data cannot be achieved in a simpler, safer way.

BLACK: Volunteers will be strictly screened to exclude known risk factors. So those selected must fit a limited profile. They'll have to be young and very healthy. Alistair hopes he's in with a chance.

FRASER-URGUHART: If ever is a time to push the boundaries and discover how quickly we can do stuff, and how well we can do stuff, and to take on risks for other people, it's now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Dr. Shoshanna Ungerleider specializes in internal medicine at the California Pacific Medical Center, and she's founder of the End Well Project and is with us this hour from San Francisco.

Good to see you. Thank you for taking the time to be with us again.

DR. SHOSHANNA UNGERLEIDER, CALIFORNIA PACIFIC MEDICAL CENTER: Thank you for having me.

VAUSE: OK, right now, Doctor, according to the WHO, we have 44 human trials that are under way in 16 different countries. These are the ones that are considered viable. It is a relatively slow process. We were always told us this is the slowest part of approval for any vaccine.

Is there a way of quantifying, if these were human challenge trials, how much quicker this entire process would be?

UNGERLEIDER: Gosh, John, that's a great question. It's a little hard to say. Because we truly are in unprecedented territory, right? The amount of work being done worldwide to find a viable vaccine for the novel coronavirus is -- is really unprecedented.

What I can tell you, John, is that, if a vaccine candidate emerges, most likely, it will consist of two shots, spaced two or three weeks apart. And you know, at the earliest, I suspect widespread availability of a vaccine that we're all waiting for, hoping for, won't happen until the middle of next year.

[00:35:17]

So it's really important, in the absence of these challenge trials, that Phase 3 trials, you know, get completed to determine safety and efficacy of a vaccine. They absolutely must take this process slowly, uphold the highest levels of scientific rigor and not be swayed by political or economic pressure.

VAUSE: Despite what everybody wants, there are no shortcuts here, unfortunately. And the World Health Organization weighed in on this and how these trials should be carried out and what the volunteers should know. Listen to this.

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MARGARET HARRIS, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION SPOKESWOMAN: So generally, with such trials in the past, they were done when you had specific treatment. So you would expose the person to the virus, test the -- test the vaccine in the person who was exposed, give them the vaccine, give them the vaccine first, actually, and then expose them to the virus. But you would have a treatment.

So, you must ensure that everybody involved understands exactly what is at stake. Must be selected to minimize the risk to the volunteer, and you must ensure that informed consent is rigorous, that they really do understand all the risks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: And that's the point here. You know, how can these volunteers, possibly know all the risks when each day, there seems to be new revelations about how harmful the virus can be, about the dangers to the long-term health impacts, the prognosis for those who have had it, that are still dealing with it. At this point, no one knows all the risks.

UNGERLEIDER: I think that's absolutely right. You know it, historically, human challenge trials have been used to provide insights, you know, into other diseases, like influenza and malaria.

In the case of COVID-19, John, we do have more treatments for patients who become seriously ill with COVID than we did right at the beginning of the pandemic.

However, the fact for me is we don't yet have an approved drug that's a cure. And so, if you're infecting healthy people with a potentially deadly virus, you need to think very, very hard about the ethical questions; be as certain as you possibly can that they are quite informed and then consent. This is largely uncharted territory, here.

VAUSE: Very quickly, the CDC came out with a new study which says the death toll of U.S. from COVID-19 is a lot higher than the official count, around 220,000. Researchers looked at what's known as excess deaths, comparing the death rate this year with the same period last year. They found that, basically, from early January through October, an estimated 300,000 more people than expected died in the United States.

So as a measure of mortality, why is this methodology considered more reliable than the current count that we're getting from places like Johns Hopkins and the CDC?

UNGERLEIDER: Well, I'm not sure that it's more reliable. It's just more data. Right?

So the official U.S. death count now is about 220,000 from COVID. It's likely not fully inclusive. These excess deaths that you mentioned may be from uncounted COVID-19, those who have died at home or just weren't tested.

But this 300,000 number probably also includes people who died because they were scared to seek out medical attention because of the pandemic. And it's important to point out, lastly, that these excess deaths also occurred at higher rates among Latinx, Asian, American- Indian, and black people due to extreme disparities and access to medical care in the United States.

VAUSE: Dr. Shoshanna Ungerleider, we're out of time, but as always, thank you so much. We really appreciate you being with us.

UNGERLEIDER: Thank you.

VAUSE: We'll take a quick break. Back in a moment.

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VAUSE: A new app could make travel easier and more accessible for those who have been vigilant in maintaining social distancing, avoiding crowds, and staying virus-free during the pandemic.

The app, called Common Paths, verifies that someone has tested negative. Its first is on a transatlantic flight, which lands in Newark, New Jersey, later on Wednesday.

More now from CNN's Anna Stewart.

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ANNA STEWART, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The world is a patchwork of travel restrictions. Closed borders, quarantines, pre-travel testing requirements, all of which keep changing.

(on camera): It's enough to put people off travel altogether, and that's damaging for the aviation sector, for tourism, for the whole global economy. However, one solution to travel could be the passport, not this kind but this: a digital health passport.

The app has been developed by the Common Project Foundation, in partnership with the World Economic Forum. The concept is simple enough. A traveler checks the app to see what the COVID-19 rules are at their destination.

For example, it may require a PCR test 24 hours before travel. The app tells the traveler where they can get a government-approved COVID-19 test and upload that test result in the app.

If negative, the app generates a QR code confirming the traveler's compliance to be scanned by airline staff and border officials.

However, testing prior to travel has its limitations.

DANNY ALTMANN, IMMUNOLOGY PROFESSOR, IMPERIAL COLLEGE: At that moment, that person is safe to fly or migrate or whatever it is, because they were PCR negative, which is probably, you know, meaningless if they were about to turn PCR positive five minutes after you do the test.

STEWART: Common Path says screening minimizes the risk and is already a requirement for entry into many countries. A trial of their app is underway for volunteer passengers flying with United Airlines and Cafe Pacific between London, New York, Hong Kong and Singapore.

If it goes well, Common Path hopes more airlines and airports will use it in the future. PAUL MEYER, CEO, THE COMMONS PROJECT: We've actually managed to

convene over 50 countries that have come together, through dialog, that led up to Common Paths. Most of the world's biggest airlines, most of the world's biggest airports, and I think one of the realizations that they've come to through these sessions is this kind of system has to work in a globally operable way. It can't only work within one bubble, or with one travel corridor.

STEWART: If a COVID-19 vaccine is successfully developed, Common Paths hopes travelers will be able to log their vaccination into the app. Yes, there are concerns too little is known about vaccine efficacy.

ALTMANN: I wouldn't feel comfortable as a sort of minister of health to be, you know, stamping and sealing the legislation on the use of antibody (ph) passports on these places.

STEWART: Immunity passports are pie in the sky, at least for now. Helping people to take to the skies with an app that simplifies and coordinates COVID-19 travel restrictions, is at least on the horizon.

Ann Stewart, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: I'm John Vause. Back in 15 minutes, right after WORLD SPORT.

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