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Rep. Eric Swalwell (D-CA) is Interviewed about Russia and Iran Interference; Scientists Slam COVID-19 Origins; Ohio Secretary of State Frank LaRose is Interviewed about Elections. Aired 9:30-10a

Aired October 22, 2020 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:31:55]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back.

The director of national intelligence, John Ratcliffe, says that Iran and Russia are attempting to interfere in the election. He says both countries have, and this is key, obtained U.S. voter registration information with Iran posing as the far right group Proud Boys to send intimidating e-mails to Democratic voters.

Joining me now is California Congressman Eric Swalwell. He serves on the House Intel and Judiciary Committees.

Congressman, thanks for taking the time this morning.

REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): Of course, Jim. Thanks for having me back.

SCIUTTO: Now, I know you've been briefed repeatedly on intelligence regarding foreign threats to this election. A headline here seems to me, beyond the politics, is that both Iran and Russia have obtained voter information.

To -- without getting into classified information, is this public voter information that they've accessed or have they hacked things that are private?

SWALWELL: Well, you know, following what was said yesterday, you know, obtaining any voter information is concerning. Still trying to learn more and hoping to get briefed in the next 24 hours on this, Jim.

We know that Russia, you know, sought to do this in 2016. I'm concerned, though, that the DNI, the director of national intelligence, Ratcliffe, continues to conflate Iran's scope, intent, preferences and capabilities with Russia. Russia had done this before. They had a preference to tear down Hillary Clinton and help Donald Trump. We know right now they have a preference to help Donald Trump and to tear down Joe Biden and that they're going to continue to do that. So to put them in the same league would be like putting a serial

killer and a pickpocket on "America's Most Wanted." It just -- it's a different league that they are in.

SCIUTTO: On the issue of how far a Russia might go in this election, or an Iran or a China, in 2016 the nightmare scenario was not just disinformation, right --

SWALWELL: Right.

SCIUTTO: But accessing actual voting systems, whether it be registration or vote counting.

SWALWELL: Right.

SCIUTTO: What is your level of concern, based on the intelligence you've seen, that Russia or another foreign actor will take that step and, you know -- and it doesn't have to be nationally, right, it could just be in a few targeted counties here and there.

SWALWELL: Well, we know that a few targeted counties here and there, Jim, could make the difference.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

SWALWELL: And we know 60,000 votes in three states last time made the difference.

And so what we have to be mindful of as voters is, the best thing we can do to outvote Russia is to show up ourselves with our feet at the polls. And so what we're encouraging folks to do is to not let voter, you know, interference by Russia stop us from achieving the result of showing up.

We'll sort this out in a Biden administration. We'll hold Russia accountable. But right now the best thing we can do is to just vote with our feet, show up and make sure that Russia does not have, you know, a bigger impact on this election.

SCIUTTO: I get that, but are -- but are -- is there a concern that Russia will take a step it didn't take on 2016, which is mess with vote counting, try to stop people from being allowed to vote, right, by messing with voter registration rolls?

[09:35:02]

SWALWELL: Yes, of course, that is still a concern. But if you don't have a president whose giving directives to the intelligence community to stop that, the best thing we can do is to encourage people to show up and vote because that could be the antidote to it, Jim.

But they are interfering right now. They are laundering information through Congress. You know, this Andre Durkosh (ph) character who's been working with the president's lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, has had manufactured dirt on the vice president that he's been able to get Senator Ron Johnson to use in his committee hearings. So they're still actively trying to do that.

I think the country's inoculated that -- inoculated against that in a sense that the president was impeached for trying to do this. But Russia's not going to stop trying to help Donald Trump.

SCIUTTO: We -- former Deputy FBI Director Andrew McCabe, last night, said that even in the midst of the politics or alleged politics of the statements last night, that there is a positive note here that shows the intelligence community, agencies like the DHS and the FBI forward leaning on foreign interference in this election. There's a lot of concern among our viewers, understandably, that that kind of interference might make their vote not count.

What level of concern should they have or should they be confident that, listen, even if the president's not talking about this, the FBI, the DHS has their back.

SWALWELL: Well, the president is the one behind the steering wheel with his, you know, hand on the pedal and -- or his foot on the pedal and the brakes and he steers this country and people may be in the car pointing to the president saying, don't go in that direction or go in this direction. But if he doesn't listen to them, he could take our democracy off a cliff.

And so you could have the best FBI agents on this task, but if the president is not giving directives, the president is not telling Vladimir Putin, stop doing this. If he's not putting tough sanctions on Russia and having our allies do the same, then you're going to have uncertainty.

And Russia looks at this president and they have a green light. And so they're going to continue to press against us. And that's why, again, we just have to outvote Russia and entrust that a new administration is going to make sure our democracy always belongs to us. So it's going to be a bumpy ride, Jim, but voter turnout is the best way to stop this.

SCIUTTO: Final question. "The Washington Post" is reporting that the president, his advisers, have repeatedly discussed firing the FBI Director, Christopher Wray, for, among other things, not acting on this demand that the FBI investigate Joe Biden and his son, Hunter Biden, before the election in 12 days' time.

Do you believe the FBI director's job is in jeopardy and what would your reaction be to that?

SWALWELL: I hope not. The FBI director has spoken truth to power. This president knows that in the last election, you know, while he was down in the polls, ten days before, he did get assistance from the FBI reopening an investigation. So I can see why he would want that.

But the best thing we can do in a new administration --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

SWALWELL: Post-Donald Trump is to really increase the independence of the Department of Justice so no president can ever seek to abuse it the way Donald Trump (INAUDIBLE).

SCIUTTO: Congressman Swalwell, thanks for joining us this morning.

SWALWELL: My pleasure. Thanks, Jim.

HARLOW: Well, the president's former White House chief strategist is pushing a conspiracy theory about the origins of COVID-19, but, again, it's just not true. The CNN investigation into that is next.

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[09:41:44]

HARLOW: Welcome back.

So this morning a new CNN investigation is looking into the origins of a conspiracy theory that claims that the coronavirus was created in a Chinese lab to be used as a bio weapon.

SCIUTTO: To be clear, it's not true, but CNN did find that a paper promoting this false theory has a direct link to President Trump supporter and former White House chief strategist, as he was known, Steve Bannon.

Our Drew Griffin has more.

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DREW GRIFFIN CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It is a right-wing fueled conspiracy theory pushed to millions of Americans.

TUCKER CARLSON, FOX NEWS: Li Meng Yan.

GRIFFIN: Dr. Li Meng Yan, a Chinese scientist in hiding but appears everywhere on right wing media and claiming her two research papers prove the virus that causes COVID-19 was created in a Chinese lab and is a Chinese bio weapon.

DR. LI MENG YAN, M.D. PHD, VIROLOGIST, WHISTLEBLOWER: It is modern bio weapon in unrestricted way.

GRIFFIN: But a CNN investigation has found shoddy citations, questionable sourcing and so many scientists who say it's bunk, Yan's paper is not a credible, scientific work. But it is directly linked to one of Donald Trump's former top strategists, Steve Bannon.

STEVE BANNON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: Do you believe that a super spreader or some -- was actually sent and somehow has been focused on the White House or focused on President Trump?

MILES GUO: One hundred percent.

GRIFFIN: That 100 percent comes from Chinese billionaire and exile Miles Guo, who's using his money and Bannon's media expertise to try to discredit the Chinese government. Bannon and Guo appeared together on Bannon's podcast, fill the pages of a website called "G News" and began two non-profits together, The Rule of Law Society and Rule of Law Foundation. These are the groups who say they support Dr. Li Meng Yan and appear on the top of her research reports.

Columbia University virologist Angela Rasmussen says the papers are scientific junk.

ANGELA RASMUSSEN, VIROLOGIST, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: Anybody with an actual background in virology or molecular biology who reads this paper will realize that much of it is actually nonsense.

GRIFFIN: CNN spoke to a half dozen scientists who say Yan's papers are filled with half-truths, not scientifically tenable. One who even met with Yan and said, her first study wasn't plausible. University of Michigan Professor Anna Mapp says the paper lacked a basic obligation to scientific practices.

ANNA MAPP, PROFESSOR OF CHEMICAL BIOLOGY, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: I was also really disturbed to see such a shoddy piece of work.

GRIFFIN: And CNN could find no trace of Yan's three co-authors in the U.S. or China. Yan didn't respond to tell us why, but a source tells us that those three co-authors are pseudonyms for U.S.-based Chinese scientist who fear using their own names, but the source offered no proof.

Miles Guo told us Yan's work is Yan's work, independent of any editorial control by me. Steve Bannon offered no response.

Yet there is more about Yan's work. Some of the sources of her research appear not to be credible. Amanda Peiffer, who's getting a Ph.D. in chemical biology, first alerted CNN to issues with the citations at the very end of Yan's paper.

[09:45:00]

AMANDA PEIFFER, CHEMICAL BIOLOGY PH.D. CANDIDATE, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: People who aren't experts, people who aren't scientists, people who really haven't done anything, these are not coming from credible sources. I think that's really concerning.

GRIFFIN: A CNN analyst finds Yan's citations include a paper that appeared only as a post on a LinkedIn, a report written by a person that CNN cannot locate, running a company that does not seem to exist, three of the citations that linked to posts on a website opposed to genetically modified food. Then there is citation 23, which links to anonymous blog posts published back in March. Parts of Yan's papers appear to be pulled directly from these anonymous blogs.

GRIFFIN (on camera): I don't want to say copied and pasted, but it almost has that same effect.

PEIFFER: They took the exact same figures, the exact same phrasing, and the exact same captions and put those into the report that was Yan's paper. And that -- that does not happen in science.

GRIFFIN (voice over): And guess where one of those blogs first appeared months before Yan's paper? "G News," the disinformation news site linked to Steve Bannon and Miles Guo.

RASMUSSEN: And as much as I hate to think of the idea of component scientists using their work for political propaganda, to me that's what this seems to be.

GRIFFIN: Drew Griffin, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: We should note that Steve Bannon now faces criminal charges for an unrelated issue, charged with wire fraud and money laundering. He's out on bond. He has pleaded not guilty.

Well, how can voter information in the hands of foreign adversaries hurt our election process? I'm going to speak to the man in charge of the election for the battleground state of Ohio on that issue and others. It's next.

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[09:51:36]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back.

More than 41 million Americans have already cast ballots in the presidential election. This shatters early voting turnout records.

Joining me now to discuss, Ohio Secretary of State Frank LaRose.

Mr. Larose, thanks so much for taking the time this morning.

FRANK LAROSE, OHIO SECRETARY OF STATE: Good morning, Jim.

SCIUTTO: So more than a million in just Ohio have taken advantage of early voting. I wonder, does early voting in your state favor either party?

LAROSE: You know, I don't think it does. But, either way, those aren't numbers I'm tracking.

I'll tell you what it does favorite, it favors the democratic process, though, because we've seen double the numbers of voters that we've seen casting previously in 2016 have showed up for early voting, as well as absentee voting in Ohio. And we're just proud to see it.

SCIUTTO: No question. It's good news, more people vote.

I want to ask you this because federal officials, of course, announced yesterday that both Iran and Russia have obtained U.S. voter information in an effort to interfere in the 2020 election. And I wonder, have you seen evidence of that in Ohio and are you concerned that that might be used to disrupt thing Election Day or in advance of Election Day?

LAROSE: Well, we haven't seen recent evidence of anything like that. But, of course, we're constantly vigilant. What I remind our team, and this is a -- a saying I took from the Army

is that the -- the bad guys only have to be right once, the good guys and gals have to be right every single day. And that's the kind of vigilance that we bring to it.

And so of course this is something that we're always on the lookout for. But, also, Ohio's really been at the tip of the spear in making sure that we're prepared for this. Really starting last year, we used our federal (INAUDIBLE) dollars to get our 88 counties all up to speed with a multi-point checklist they all had to go through. And I feel good about where Ohio is. But, of course, there's always more work to do.

SCIUTTO: You've asked the citizens of Ohio to do two things in advance of this election, to fight back, one, report disinformation and, two, simply to vote. I just wonder, regarding disinformation, because a great deal of its coming from outside the country, but the sad fact is some of it's coming from inside this country. And, unfortunately, the president himself has made unfounded claims about, for instance, the insecurity of mail-in ballots.

I wonder, does that make your job more difficult?

LAROSE: Oh, sure it does. Anytime somebody's spreading unfounded information about elections, it's something that I have to push back against and speak out against. And -- and I've been very clear about doing that. In Ohio, our absentee voting system is trusted. Its's been trusted by both Republicans and Democrats for close to 20 years. It's a secure and safe way to cast your ballot. And it's -- you know, it's not responsible, no matter who does it, whether it's a foreign adversary or one of our own domestic politicians.

SCIUTTO: Understood.

The question of poll watchers has come up reportedly. The president has asked his supporters to go out there. But CNN has learned that both Republicans and Democrats are prepared to deploy approved, you know, vetted, trained poll watchers as well to watch things on Election Day.

I just wonder, as secretary of state, do you think that's necessary, right, I mean because there are concerns about voter intimidation.

LAROSE: Sure. You know, it's always been the right of candidates and parties to nominate elections observers. That's what we call it here in Ohio. And their job is to just observe, really, they can't do much more. It's very tightly defined in Ohio's law. They can't be uniformed. They can't be armed. They can't really interfere with what's going on at the polling location.

So, of course, a party, a candidate can nominate an election's observer. That's their right. But more important than poll watchers, we need poll workers still. I mean, you know, if you really want to make a difference and make sure that our laws are being enforced uniformly, get trained and become one of those sworn election officials that actually helps us run the election on Election Day. [09:55:08]

Sign up at our website, voteohio.gov.

SCIUTTO: Before you go, we've had a real emphasis on this broadcast about getting the facts out about voting. Information people need. When they've got to have their mail-in ballot in. You name it.

What would you say to voters who are concerned, and understandably, about foreign threats, about disinformation coming from outside the country, inside the country? Can they have confidence their vote will be counted and, two, what should they do to make sure that it is?

LAROSE: Well, the answer is, 100 percent, yes. We run better, more accessible, and more secure elections as we speak today in this country and here in Ohio than we ever have before. Every American, every Ohioan should feel confident casting their vote, no matter which method they choose. And, by the way, in Ohio you've got three choices, early voting, absentee voting and, of course, election day in-person voting.

And the bottom line in is this, our foreign adversaries want to cause you to distrust our election. Don't let them win. Make sure you vote. That's the bottom line.

SCIUTTO: Frank LaRose, thank you for your time this morning. Thank you for your military service as well.

LAROSE: Thank you, Jim.

HARLOW: All right, well, tonight, President Trump and former Vice President Biden square off. It is the final debate. But will rule changes actually keep this one from going off the rails? We'll see. Our special coverage of tonight's final presidential debate begins at 7:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

We'll be right back.

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