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Experts New Warning over Coronavirus Vaccine; Fighting COVID in the U.K.; Trump Downplays Plot against Governor; Unrest in Philadelphia. Aired 9:30-10a

Aired October 28, 2020 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:30:53]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back.

A White House medical official says that an eventual coronavirus vaccine will be distributed to all of America simultaneously. This as a team of experts warn it may not clear which coronavirus vaccines work best or whether they work at all until after they've already been authorized and are being given to many people. It's an open question.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Our senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen is with us.

That was confusing to me reading, and I went back and read that study about -- I mean is it -- is it really the case that we may not know if some of the vaccines work at all until they're being distributed? Isn't that whole point of FDA approval?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. Poppy, it is confusing. And so let me -- let me try to sort of give a bottom line here. The -- the studies that are going on currently are in tens of thousands of people, these phase three clinical trials.

So let's say typically around 30,000 people. You can learn a lot about a vaccine with 30,000 people. You can determine if it works and you can determine if it's safe. However, once it's put out there on the market and it's taken in millions and millions of people, you can learn even more about the vaccine.

Now hopefully these studies will be right and the vaccine does work and it is effective. That's typically how it does work. But sometimes you do learn more about a vaccine because you're giving it to more people. But I don't think anyone should take this as, wait a minute, these trials are useless, we're only going to know if it works once it's on the market. That's not true. Vaccine clinical trials do work, but it's also true that you do learn more about a vaccine when you give it to millions and millions of people.

Poppy. HARLOW: OK. That makes more sense.

SCIUTTO: All right, so, Elizabeth -- no, it does. It does. And it's -- listen, there are a lot of confusion out there. The last thing we want to do is add to questions about the efficacy of these things.

Four large scale vaccine trials underway in the U.S. Where do they stand today? And which, if any, are the most promising?

COHEN: Yes. So let's take a look at this. They're kind of in two groups. So the first group would be Moderna and Pfizer. Moderna could have data in late November. That's what they tell us. Now, that data may say the vaccine doesn't work, that's possible, but they could have some data in late November. Pfizer, the same, they could have data in late November, could say it works, could say it doesn't, could say we don't know, let's continue on with the trial.

AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson are in a whole other category. AstraZeneca started their trial on August 31st, paused September 9th and now they've restarted on October 23rd. So they didn't get -- they haven't gotten very far yet. Johnson & Johnson, similar situation, started September 23rd, paused October 12th, restarted October 23rd. So, again, they did not get very far but they have restarted and the hope is, is that these trials will go well and that we'll have an effective vaccine at the end of it.

HARLOW: Let's hope so. And let's hope soon.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: Elizabeth, thank you very much for all of that reporting.

We want to take you to the U.K. now because they are struggling with what's now become a record surge in new COVID cases.

SCIUTTO: Yes, the nation's seven-day average, which is what folks really watch for new infections, jumped to record levels in recent weeks, fueling a spike then in hospitalizations. That means people getting really sick from this.

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh has more from the area in the U.K. with the most new infections.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR (voice over): In this one of Britain's hardest hit ICUs, the worst of the pandemic isn't behind them, it's just happened.

LINDA GREGSON, MATRON IN CRITICAL CARE, ROYAL BLACKBURN HOSPITAL: (INAUDIBLE) deaths. It's been the worst weekend that we've had. And that's the problem because you have a death and, unfortunately, there's somebody to go in that bed. Change mattress. Next patient.

WALSH: A third of the COVID patients in this ICU have died since Friday. There are 197 total in the hospital, 30 new this weekend.

Outside the northern city of Blackburn, last week had the worst rate of new infections in England.

WALSH (on camera): It's extraordinary as just how frenetic, how busy this ICU ward is.

DR. IAN STANLEY, CONSULTANT ANESTHETIST, ROYAL BLACKBURN HOSPITAL: On Sunday afternoon it was literally patient in, stabilized. It was almost doing traffic control to make sure that they weren't banging into each other when they came in.

WALSH (voice over): The pandemic never really eased for some here.

[09:35:00]

They're exhausted by only two weeks since March without a COVID patient.

STANLEY: And it's when I see those very senior, experienced nurses, it's when I see them crying, it's when I don't really have an answer, but it's when they say, yes, but when? When's it going to end? When are we going to get back to some degree of normality?

WALSH: But they are also exhausted by a general public disobeying and angry at the rules.

GREGSON: You know we've given absolutely everything and yet we're being called liars and we're being abused on the phone and there's nurses withdrawing treatments on patients and doing end of life on a Zoom call and having a wife or a husband or a daughter on the other side of that camera crying and saying, please, will you hold my dad's hands, please, will you do whatever. And then the next telephone conversation, that is someone here (INAUDIBLE) stay on the phone with them.

Unfortunately, on several occasions, we've had to stop the Zoom calls because there's been numerous relatives in a room not social distancing. The other day there was at least 45 in a room, so we had to stop it.

WALSH: Better treatments keep the patience conscious now, able to talk clearly of how dangerous the disease is. Retired carpenter Jack has no idea where he got it or why people insist on breaking the rules.

JACK RATCLIFFE, PATIENT: Ridiculous. I just -- I don't understand why they do it. They have -- they have no idea what the consequences are, you know?

DR. BETHAN GAY, ROYAL BLACKBURN HOSPITAL: It really does wear you down when patients and work are really unwell, dying, and dying in a very specific way and yet there's people who know nothing about the virus saying that it's not real and it doesn't exist.

Yes, last weekend on my nights, as soon as I arrived here, a lady had come to the ward and, unfortunately, passed away almost immediately, you know, giving some relatives a bag and a stick of a lady who has passed away in the bed in front of them, it's quite difficult. It's difficult for them and it's difficult for us as well.

WALSH: While outside may seem to want to be less aware of the disease, inside they grow more aware of its victims suffering and its stark random viciousness.

WALSH (on camera): Is there one thing that you've learned about this disease in the last seven or eight months?

GREGSON: You can't read (ph) it and I hate it. From the pit of my stomach hate it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALSH: Startling here really because the summer months have led many in the U.K. to begin to debate how serious the virus will be in the secondary wave. There's absolutely no doubt behind me here how grave, how serious it is. This is the worst the pandemic has been for this particular part of England. No doubt about that.

And also, too, despite the staff in there growing to know more about how this disease works, some of the improvement in the treatments you saw there actually lead the patients to be conscious and so the bond between them and their carers is a lot stronger. And then, sadly, if patients do take a turn for the sudden worse, which it seems here is still as possible as it was many months ago, that often leaves the emotional toll on their carers a lot higher as well.

It is remarkable here, Jim and Poppy, so much of the debate about whether social distancing should occur, still occurs even in Britain's major newspapers on what the best strategy going forward in here, as I say, in there, the absolutely stark reality is terrifying, frankly. And I haven't seen sort of six -- I saw six ICUs since the pandemic began here and in Brazil. I've never seen one quite so busy.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

WALSH: Back to you.

SCIUTTO: Listen, two modern countries, right, the U.K. and the U.S., and disinformation rules for a large portion of the population. It's just incredible.

Nick Paton Walsh, good to have you there.

Well, President Trump, again, takes a jab at one of his favorite targets, Michigan's Democratic governor. This time -- and listen to this, folks -- he seems to give a public pass to suspects accused of plotting to kidnap her. You have to hear these words. It's important.

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[09:43:29]

SCIUTTO: President Trump took his attacks on Michigan's Democratic governor a step further, perhaps it's worse than that. The commander in chief refusing to condemn a terrorist plot. He dismissed it yesterday. A domestic terrorism plot to kidnap, with weapons, Gretchen Whitmer.

Have a listen to these comments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Your governor, I don't think she likes me too much. Hey. Hey, hey, hey, I'm the one -- it was our people that helped her out with her problem. I mean we'll have to see if it's a problem, right? People are entitled to say maybe it was a problem, maybe it wasn't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: What is he talking about there? He's talking about a plot to kidnap the governor. And there are videos, by the way, of them training with firearms.

Miles Taylor joins me now to discuss. He's a CNN contributor. He served as under the Homeland Security Department as chief of staff in the Trump administration.

Miles, good to have you on this morning.

MILES TAYLOR, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks for having me, Jim. Appreciate it.

SCIUTTO: I know that comments from this president can get lost in the mix because there are so many that seem out there or perhaps damaging. You served in the DHS under Trump. You know, as the facts show, that domestic terrorism, particularly from white supremacist groups, is the number one terror threat in this country today. Tell me your reaction to the president, his words yesterday, seeming to give a free pass, saying, you know, maybe it was a problem, maybe it wasn't.

TAYLOR: Jim, it's as simple as this.

[09:45:01]

When the president gives a pass to domestic terrorists, it actually puts American lives in danger. Now, I'm sure, during his remarks, you know, Governor Whitmer was insulted that the president repeatedly attacked her. But when he dismissed a plot against her life, that was more than just insulting to the governor, that's a national security and law enforcement concern because he's dismissing this out of hand.

Now, we saw this when I was chief of staff at DHS and moments like this, domestic terrorists celebrate the president's comments.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

TAYLOR: And whether it's right or not, they view his comments as a license to kill. And I would add, Jim, that the president is missing a huge opportunity here. When there's a case like this, he has the opportunity to highlight for the country the scourge of violent extremism sweeping the United States to call attention to it so people are more aware and can get after the problem.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

I do want to further highlight that point because this is not the first time that the president has seemed to give a free pass. And, by the way, he's very smart. He knows how these words are received by these groups. You'll remember The Proud Boys comment, stand by, they were making t-shirts about that within hours after the comments. So you're saying groups hear those words and they take it as tacit approval. Why is that?

TAYLOR: Unquestionably, because the president ends up parroting their rhetoric. And what these ultimately come down to, these movements come down to, ideology. And that's how terrorism spreads. It spreads through networks by shared ideology and radicalization. And when someone with a microphone like the president, instead of dismissing that ideology, gives a pass to it or, in some cases, says things that support it, it actually fans the flames of that radicalization.

And I'll tell you, Jim, I've been doing counterterrorism for most of my career and the most important thing when it comes to counterterrorism is community awareness because communities are your front line trip wire to find out if there is a plot.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

TAYLOR: In fact, when we had ISIS plots sweeping the country and more than half of them, the reason they first came on our radar was because someone in the community called out the plot. That's why the president needs to make folks aware of this threat so that communities can report these plots before people actually get killed.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

TAYLOR: Instead, by dismissing it, he's making Americans think they should be indifferent.

SCIUTTO: Listen, we're used to that phrase, if you see something, say something in the wake of 9/11.

I just want to ask you this, because I have imagined these same words being uttered by a sitting U.S. president, maybe it was a problem, maybe it wasn't, about, say, a foiled ISIS plot. As with so many Trump comments, I haven't heard a peep of criticism from Republicans, right?

What do you say to GOP lawmakers who here once again are remaining silent about some -- again, you're not speaking out -- you came from DHS, from the department whose job it is to protect the homeland from threats exactly like this. What do you say to folks who might be listening, GOP lawmakers, others who once again sitting on the sidelines not commenting about this?

TAYLOR: Well, and, Jim, I know a lot of these lawmakers. I spent years working them -- working with them as a national security aide on Capitol Hill. And if Barack Obama had ever dismissed a terrorist plot like this, we would have been apoplectic. We would have been on TV every single day talking about how the president needed to call out the threat and stop ignoring it.

So I would urge my Republican colleagues, including those back in Congress, that this is one of those moments. They have to stand up. American lives are actually in danger because of this threat and they need to tell the president it's time to stop with the indifferent rhetoric and get focused on the real problem and draw attention to it so we can thwart these plots before they get carried out.

SCIUTTO: Miles Taylor, thanks for speaking from experience. We appreciate it.

TAYLOR: Thank you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: And we'll be right back.

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[09:53:44]

SCIUTTO: Unrest on the streets of Philadelphia for another night. This after police shot and killed a 27-year-old black man. Residents across some parts of the city are now being asked to stay indoors for their own safety.

HARLOW: So, last night, one group marched peacefully for much of the evening. They were chanting the name Walter Wallace Jr., of course the man who was shot and killed by police earlier this week. But the protests turned violent at parts near a police precinct and some businesses were also broken into last night. Officers shot and killed Wallace on Monday as they say that he was walking towards them with a knife.

There is a lot that has developed here. Brynn Gingras joins us in Philadelphia this morning.

Brynn, let's begin with more on what you know about last night.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Poppy and Jim, we were there alongside those peaceful protests. And just as you said, about 9:30 at night we were there as well when there was really a lot of agitators that came out in this area, the 52nd corridor as they call it here in west Philadelphia.

I want to show you how some of the violence led to looting. You can see community members now trying to clean up. We're at a Footlocker here which was looted not only last night but the night before as well. Businesses damaged.

And I can tell you, we were alongside protesters, again agitators mixed in, and police officers when there were bottles, when there were light bulbs, when things were thrown at officers, fireworks being set off, a lot of tires being slashed, a lot happening all around this city, not just here in west Philadelphia, across town as well. [09:55:10]

And because of the unrest and the expectation there will be continued unrest, we know that the National Guard is also expected to come in soon, Jim and Poppy.

SCIUTTO: So the family is saying that Wallace was experiencing a mental health crisis. According to their lawyer, they placed three calls to authorities that day. The first was for an ambulance. What are we learning about the investigation into the ultimate shooting, the fatal shooting of Wallace?

GINGRAS: Yes, that's right. According to the attorney, they called multiple times and asked for an ambulance to arrive at that scene where, again, we saw in that video, Walter Wallace was holding a knife. And it was those two officers, police officers, that there came to the scene.

What we've learned is, even as the family was calling for de- escalation, shots were fired, of course. And we know that there were seven shots fired by each officer. We also learned, because there's been a lot of calls from this community about why a Taser wasn't used. Well, both of those officers weren't holding a Taser according to the police commissioner, which is still baffling to a lot of people in this community.

We know that they both were wearing body camera video. So, listen, that's going to be a big part of this investigation, right? And there are two investigations going on right now, one with the district attorney's office and then separately within the piece department.

Those two officers are on desk duty right now, which is also something that is angering this community, but still a lot of questions need to be answered about this case.

Guys.

SCIUTTO: Brynn Gingras, good to have you there. Thanks very much.

And still ahead, new coronavirus infections are increasing now in 40 states. This as more than a dozen states are actually seeing record hospitalizations. That, of course, meaning people getting very sick from the virus. We're going to have a live update on all of this, next.

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