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Trump Missing in Action as COVID Crisis Explodes in America; More and More Republicans Pushing Trump Toward the Door. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired November 12, 2020 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

JOHN KING, CNN INSIDE POLITICS: I appreciate it the excellent, the great reporting, Pete.

Thanks for joining us today and spending some time with us. Don't go anywhere though, a busy news day. Pamela Brown picks up our coverage right now. Have a good day.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN RIGHT NOW: Well, good afternoon. I am Pamela Brown in for my colleague, Brianna Keilar. I want to welcome our viewers here in the United States and around the world.

Let's first talk about what's happening in this country right now. America is shattering coronavirus records. Get this, yesterday, more than 1,600 deaths with coronavirus, each day worse than the last. More than 144,000 new cases were reported yesterday, the highest number we have seen yet. And over 65,000 Americans are hospitalized right now, again, that is a record.

And in the midst of the crisis, where is the president? He hasn't spoken publicly about this. The American people have not heard from him directly in a week. And yet, he is still tweeting. This time, he's tweeting about threats, he's talking about the election outcome and talking about Fox News. He has not been tweeting about the pandemic, as far as we can see.

We can tell you what he is not doing right now, allowing the president-elect to briefings and funding he is entitled to during this transition period and obstructing all access to Biden's transition team.

And also, I'm told by sources, me and my colleague, Jamie Gangel and Evan Perez, were told by sources one item that is on his agenda before his tenure ends is pardons. Who will he pardon? That is a question. A list of presidential pardons may be on the horizon and the names on that list include the highest echelons of the president's inner circle, family members, perhaps even Trump himself.

I want to bring in CNN Special Correspondent Jamie Gangel. She is here with us now. Jamie, we have been digging on this, our team has been. Tell us who is on this list. If the president tries to pardon himself, is that something that's a realistic possibility, something that you've heard from your sources he might actually want to do?

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: They think that it is a possibility. Look, it takes a village to do this reporting. You did some of it, Evan, Jeremy Herb. What we are hearing is that administration officials are split in the end on whether he would do it, but I have spoken to several former administration officials, senior Republicans who think that it is possible that he would do it.

I think one of the things we need to do is -- you know, he is still in fight mode so I don't know whether he has focused on presidential pardons yet, but what we do know is that if you just look at his Twitter feed for the last couple of years, there are people around him who he may very well pardon. Just looking at some of the people who were targeted in the Mueller investigation, Michael Flynn, George Papadopoulos, Paul Manafort, Allen Weisselberg, he is the accountant, Rudy Giuliani, Roger Stone, and also a name that's been mentioned a lot is Jared Kushner's father, Charlie Kushner.

But, as you said, Pamela, the real question is will he, in the end, take a serious look at pardoning himself. There are a couple of things to keep in mind. He can only do that theoretically, it has never been tested, for federal crimes, not for state crimes.

But I want to read to you what a former administration official told CNN, that Trump has been asking about pardons since 2017, and here is a quote. Once he learned about it, he was obsessed with the power of pardons and used to ask about it all the time. He loved the notion of having power and doing favors.

Some people have said to us, of course, he will, some administration officials have said he won't do it because it will make him look guilty. But let's keep in mind that a lot of the things we heard from Donald Trump over the last three years have to do with feeling like a victim, that he is the target of a witch hunt, a hoax. He may use that kind of language if, if, big if, if he does this as a kind of cover to say, I've got to pardon myself because people are after me. It is a way to protect myself.

And I just want to read you one other quote. This was from a former senior administration official who said that Trump was always fascinated by pardons because he could do it unilaterally, that he loved the notion of, quote, extraordinary power, and this source said, I always thought he liked it because it was a way to do a favor which was typical of his life in the real estate business.

[13:05:07]

It was, quote, a way to benefit friends and harm enemies. Pamela?

BROWN: And just to be clear, are we expecting anything imminently? It seems as though right now, the president is pretty focused on the election outcome, right?

GANGEL: I think he is still fighting and I think we have seen that until he comes to terms with the fact that President-elect Biden is President-elect Biden and these court cases go away or the election is certified in all these states, I don't think he is looking at this yet. But he is so enamored with the presidential pardon that I think quite shortly this is going to come up to the top of his checklist of things to do between now and January 20th.

BROWN: And it wouldn't be surprising either, because a lot of the former presidents, we have seen the same from them. What is unique here, as you point out, is the pardon list, who he is looking at to possibly pardon. Jamie Gangel, thank you so much. Great working with you on this story.

And let's get more reaction and analysis on this. Let's bring in Elliot Williams, CNN Legal Analyst and former Deputy Assistant Attorney General and former Federal Prosecutor.

So let's break this down. Can the president pardon himself? How would that work if you look at the DOJ OLC memo that Jamie discussed?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. So, one thing that Jamie had noted is that I think a Trump insider said it might make him look guilty. It is not just that, a pardon is actually, in effect, acknowledgment that wrongdoing or chargeable crime has happened. So he wouldn't just be looking guilty, he would be acknowledging that he committed an offense. And so that's something that I don't know if this president is going to want to do.

Now, the question that you ask, could he pardon himself legally? Well, we have never seen it before. And like so many things with the president we've seen, he is welcome to try. Now, most scholars who have looked at this have found the question of a president pardoning himself to be legally suspect or questionable just because there's a principle in the law that you can't act as the judge in your own case. So, in effect, pardoning himself for an offense would essentially be adjudicating the offense himself and that can't really happen in the law.

Now, again, it has never come up before, so we'd have to see how it would play out now.

BROWN: But under the OLC memo, it seems to suggest that he could potentially -- I mean, this is all hypothetical, we want to be clear, we have no indication that he is actually going to do this. He has just shown interest in it. People I have spoken to have said it is unrealistic because they don't think that he will admit guilt, because that's essentially what it would do. But there's certainly a divide from those close to Trump about what he is going to do.

But then that OLC memo, it seemed to suggest that he could put the vice president forward, he could step down, put the vice president forward, who then could give him a pardon. Is that the more realistic scenario if this were to play out?

WILLIAMS: It is. What you're talking about is this 1974 Office of Legal Council memorandum. It's this office in the Justice Department that makes just legal opinions. Now, again, they're not official decisions, you can't rely on them in the law, but they're just interpretations of the law.

And what they've said is that, in fact, during the time of Richard Nixon, a president can't pardon himself. Now under, the 25th Amendment, what the president could is temporarily step down from the presidency, saying he is incapable of carrying out the duties of office, have the vice president take over, step in, pardon him.

Another thing he could do is just resign outright. He could resign the presidency and hand that over to mike Pence, who could have an opportunity to pardon him, sort of as Ford did with Nixon. The problem is it is fraught with peril, politically, for Mike Pence, because, ultimately, he would be stepping into a political time bomb in a way that was not the case in 1974. To some extent, many people believed that Ford had to pardon Nixon to unite the country. That's just not the case here.

And more importantly, there would be open question if Pence were to then pardon Trump as to the federal bribery statute. Did Pence receive something of value, quote, unquote, the presidency, in exchange for taking a legal action, pardoning his predecessor? So, yes, he could. And OLC does pretty clearly say that the vice president could, but that's legally.

There's a whole political set of questions for the vice president to consider, someone who we know probably thinks about his own future and potentially running for president. It would be very risky for him to do that.

BROWN: All right. Elliot, thanks so much for coming on, providing your analysis.

And I want to go back to what's happening behind the scenes at the White House right now as we speak. Sources are telling CNN that the president is, quote, dejected and waffling on what to do next. Dana Bash joins me now.

Dana, we have been speaking to sources within the administration, and behind the scenes, we're told that, look, the president is pretty erratic. And what more are you learning about the president's plan moving forward?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, one of the things that I was told by a source familiar with the president's thinking is that November 20th is a date to circle on the calendar. Why is that? Because that is the date that, by Georgia law, that state has to finish its recount, which they began this week.

And so the source said it is very unlikely that the president is going to give any indication that he is accepting the reality of what is in front of us, which is that Joe Biden is going to be the next president of the United States and he will be a one-term president, won't do that until he feels that that line in Georgia is exhausted.

Now, having said that, and, Pam, I would love to hear your thoughts on this, we all know, particularly after covering Donald Trump for five years but, you know, especially in moments like this, just because he is saying that that is something that he is looking at now, doesn't mean he can't and won't change his mind if something else comes up, right?

BROWN: Yes, exactly. I mean, like I said, this as we're getting and talking to sources as, he has been erratic. One moment, he could be calm, accept where things are, and then the next minute, it's, I want to fight this out. And so, as of today, we should circle that date. But you're right, Dana. It is pretty fluid behind the scenes.

But right now, what is the sense you're getting from your sources in terms of the president's thinking? From what you've heard, has he come to terms with his loss? And then there's always the question of should we expect another run from 2024?

BASH: Well, on the first, I think it depends on the moment about whether or not he's accepted and come to terms with his loss. In his head, there is little question that he understands what happened. This is according to multiple sources that I'm talking to, that he gets it.

He feels like he is sort of compelled to fight for the 70-plus million people that did vote for him and are believing what he is telling them falsely that this was rigged and stolen and fraud and all the things that he is saying which is just there's no evidence that that is true. But this is a world and a reality that he has created, therefore, he feels that he needs to live up to it.

And even when we get to the point where the president somehow -- I shouldn't say when -- if we get to the point when the president somehow acknowledges this reality, I would not expect concession, don't expect anything close to that. Mostly, it's going to be a marker that this is just the latest in the fight that he has waged against all of the people who are against him and that he is not going anywhere, he still has these voters, he still has these followers, and you haven't seen the last of me. I'm sure you're hearing similar.

BROWN: Absolutely. And there's this idea that he feels his presidency was never acknowledged and he has this grudge against Hillary Clinton thinking that she never really acknowledged him as president and would go out there and say that the Russians interfered or Comey, that's why I didn't win. And so what I'm hearing from sources is that that's also playing into this. He doesn't want to give Biden the legitimacy that he feels like he didn't get in this presidency.

So, we'll have to see how this plays out. Dana, I know you're keeping track of it minute by minute, hour by hour. Stand by, Dana, there is more to discuss, because there are more Republicans starting to push President Trump to the door, including Karl Rove.

Plus, a Biden coronavirus adviser joins me how one member of her team is calling for the U.S. to be on lockdown for four to six weeks, this amid another disturbing day in the crisis, record hospitalizations and nearly 2,000 Americans losing their lives in one day.

This is CNN's special live coverage.

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BROWN: Well, President Trump and his allies are refusing to accept the outcome of the election and they're lying to the American people because they're making baseless allegations of widespread fraud and saying that this could still turn in their favor.

Well, now, a growing list of Republicans are urging the president to accept his fate and move forward for the good of the country. Among them, Republican strategist and Fox News Contributor Karl Rove, who writes in The Wall Street Journal, quote, the president's efforts are unlikely to move a single state from Mr. Biden's column and certainly they're not enough to change the final outcome. To win, Mr. Trump must prove systemic fraud with illegal votes in the tens of thousands. There is no evidence of that so far.

Even Geraldo Rivera, a friend of the president, is urging him to throw in the towel. Tweeting in part, quote, you came so close. Time coming soon to say goodbye with grace and dignity, leaving chin high in a week or so when your court fights no longer present a realistic, long shot chance to overturn the election.

And Republican Senator James Lankford goes a step further, telling a local radio station he will, quote, intervene if President-elect Biden does not start getting briefings by tomorrow.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JAMES LANKFORD (R-OK): There's nothing wrong with Vice President Biden getting the briefings to be able to prepare himself and so that he can be ready.

There is no loss from him getting the briefings and to be able to do that. And if that's not occurring by Friday, I will step in as well to be able to push saying them and say, this needs to occur, so that regardless of the outcome of the election, whichever way it goes, people can be ready for the actual task.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[13:20:08]

BROWN: And my colleague, Manu Raju, is on Capitol Hill. And you have some breaking news, Manu. What are you hearing from Republicans about these briefings?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. More and more Republicans are siding with what James Lankford there said in that they believe that Joe Biden should get access to those classified intelligence briefings, raising concerns about national security preparedness if Joe Biden, the president-elect, does not get access to sensitive security information.

These are very senior and influential members of the Republican Party. Chuck Grassley, who is president pro tem, which is the most senior member, Republican member, said to me that, absolutely, they said, yes, the president-elect, he said, Joe Biden should get access to those briefings. Also John Thune, who is the number two Republican, said the same thing.

And even the president, some of his closest allies, like Lindsey Graham, who is fighting alongside the president, along this court fight against this election result, said that the president should get access to those briefings, in addition, other people who advice the Republican leadership, like Rob Portman, you're hearing more and more Republicans say that that is the very least that should happen.

Also, some are saying that there should be a release of those funds that would allow for the transition process to occur officially from the General Services Administration. One Republican, Kevin Cramer, who is close to the president, told me that those funds should be released.

And other Republicans don't believe that the president has much of a chance of winning this legal challenge. They're willing to give him some space to mount those legal fights but believe that the chances are very, very slim to overturn these results, including Senator John Barrasso, a member of the Republican leadership. I've been just told moments ago that the president is on a, quote, very narrow road to succeed in court. And Shelley Moore Capito, the West Virginia Republican, told me, the president has a difficult mountain to climb.

So you're hearing more and more skepticism that the president can succeed while they're siding with him at the moment. They recognize his chances of overturning the results are slim and many are eager for the transition period to begin because of their concerns about the country not being prepared on national security grounds.

But, Pam, the big question, of course, is what if the president loses these court cases, still refuses to concede, does not allow for the presidential daily briefings to occur for Joe Biden, does not release those funds for an official transition, what do these Republicans say then? That's a big question, because, at the moment, they believe the president will listen to the court results. We'll see if he does though. Pam?

BROWN: Well, it's interesting too. I mean, this is no surprise how this is playing out, Manu. The president basically forecasted this is how he was going to act. And it seems like now, Republicans are trying to figure out how to respond to this.

Manu, thank you for your excellent reporting there on Capitol Hill. We appreciate it.

And now, let's bring in Jamie Gangel and Dana Bash with us. Ladies, great to see you again.

Dana, what do you make of Manu's reporting?

BASH: Well, I was seeing the emails coming in from Manu and from Ted Barrett about all of the Republicans starting to take baby steps. And when I say baby steps, I really mean the baby-est of baby steps towards trying to pull the president towards reality.

And those steps are starting with the basics, which are national security implications, as you would expect it to be from any elected official, but particularly Republicans. The notion that if the incoming president isn't, you know, up to speed on the very real threats that could be coming down the pike to America when he is actually in charge is very dangerous. And all you have to do is be familiar with the 9/11 report, which says part of the reason America was caught flatfooted on 9/11, 2001, is because the transition was slow because of the 2000 recount.

And it also speaks to what I have been hearing from Republican and Democratic sources inside the Biden transition, Pam, which is they believe that the president's island will get smaller and smaller, and you're starting to see that happen.

BROWN: But, Jamie, to the point I made to Manu, should Republicans have been more prepared for what is playing out right now? Because, again, the president said before the election, he wouldn't commit to a peaceful transfer of power. He said the election would be rigged if he lost. I mean, this really isn't surprising. And yet you are hearing these different sort of reactions in the GOP and you're seeing these baby steps, as Dana put so perfectly.

Should they have been more prepared or more united in how to respond to this moment right now?

GANGEL: Isn't that what we have been saying for the last four years? Could have, should have, would have. I think there's no question that we would have hoped by this time, especially with election results that they would not want to be contributing to undermining the democratic process.

[13:25:11]

But I just want to circle back to that Karl Rove piece in The Wall Street Journal yesterday, especially the headline, which you couldn't miss. The election results won't be overturned. That was not an accident. For people who don't know who Karl Rove is, he was the political strategist behind former President George W. Bush's career and he has been very close to the Trump campaign. He has been giving them advice. He talks to Jared Kushner.

The fact that that piece was written with that headline last night, I do not think, was an accident. I think Karl would not have done that without Jared Kushner knowing he was going to do it. And I think it may have been an attempt to, in effect, take the hammer, break the glass, and as we have seen to Dana's point about baby steps, but we have seen Republican after Republican put a toe in the water. I think Karl Rove played a critical role in moving that forward with the article.

BROWN: Yes, go ahead.

BASH: And can I just take a stab at answering the first part of your question to Jamie about where have Republicans been. We all knew. Anybody who knows how to read and listen to television, watch television knows that the president was going to do exactly this. But what Republicans weren't sure of was how he would do in the election. And, yes, he lost. He certainly lost the popular vote, but he did get, because turnout was so incredibly high, 72 million or so votes. That's a huge number.

And the Republicans who didn't stand up to the president for all these years didn't do it because his voters are their voters, and what that result showed was that is still the case and it probably will be for some time.

BROWN: So it is really interesting though, because it is clear when you're seeing from senators like Ted Cruz and Graham, Dana, they have really been -- had the president's back, supporting his claims, baseless claims of widespread fraud. And it is like taking it a step further than a lot of the other senators we have seen. And you have to look at the numbers and wonder how much of that was a motivation, looking at all the people that voted for Trump, more than 72 million. So, really, important perspective there.

Dana Bash, Jamie Gangel, thank you so much, much appreciated.

Well, a war suddenly erupting between the president and Fox News as reports indicate he is looking to build an empire.

Plus, hospitals across America are hitting capacity and running out of beds at the worst time.

And Biden, a Biden coronavirus adviser joins me live on how one member of the team is calling for the U.S. to be on lockdown for four to six weeks.

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