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Aides Split on Whether Trump May Try to Pardon Self; Crack Widens as More and More Republicans Pushing Trump Toward the Door; Arizona Post-Election Audits Find No Evidence of Fraud; Chicago Mayor Issues Stay at Home Advisory. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired November 12, 2020 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Despite his refusal to admit it, President Trump's time in the White House is coming to an end. And that puts the issue of presidential pardons front and center. This afternoon we are getting the reporting on how the President might use this power on the way out, whether he might actually try to pardon himself.

Evan Perez has a scoop for us on this. And so what do you know about what the President could be thinking here?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, first, the President has to move to the acceptance part of his grief. He's got to work that out. But once he does, I mean, we're told he's already had conversations with people close to him, some of his aides, to look into this question of exactly how much of these pardons he can do.

Now the easy part for him is that he already has talked a lot on Twitter about some of the people who were involved in the Mueller investigation, people in his campaign who he believes were unfairly targeted simply because they were with him. And those people, of course, include Michael Flynn, his first National Security Adviser who is still in court trying to get out of his conviction, or rather his guilty plea. Paul Manafort, his former campaign chairman.

And of course, the big question is what does he do about his family and himself. Now that's a big question. The President on Twitter mused about this issue in 2018. He said that he believes he has the power to self-pardon. I'll tell you that the Justice Department looked at this question back in the Richard Nixon era in 1974 and they said, quote, under the fundamental rule that no one may be a judge in his own case, the President cannot pardon himself.

Now, there's a lot of disagreement constitutionally as to whether or not this would be legal. But there's another way for the President to take care of this. He could temporarily step down and Mike Pence could act as president and give him such a pardon before the President leaves office on January 20th. Of course, Brooke, the big thing here for the President, even if he gets a federal pardon, this does not solve all of his problems, his legal issues.

BALDWIN: New York state, right?

PEREZ: Right, New York state and other states could have investigations into his company. We know that those are looking as to whether or not -- looking into big questions of whether or not there was any tax crimes that were committed. So the President is not out of the wood even if gives himself a pardon before January 20th.

BALDWIN: Just when you think you had covered it all, Evan Perez.

PEREZ: Yes, not over.

BALDWIN: Not over. Evan, thank you. Let's talk about that. Garrett Graff is a CNN contributor, and Ana Navarro is a CNN political commentator, welcome, welcome to both of you. And Garrett, let's start on pardons. I mean the President potentially pardoning himself. What say you?

GARRETT GRAFF, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I agree with Evan that it does not seem that that is necessarily something that would hold up in court. One wrinkle, though, in this is a corporation pardon. We have never seen in U.S. history a corporation pardon before. But it does seem like Trump could potentially pardon the Trump Organization and that could hold up in court if you wanted to try to wipe away some of the legal challenges that might face his presidency and his business after he leaves office.

BALDWIN: OK. I'm going to put to be continued on that and we'll move on. Ana Navarro, Republicans, your party, you know, we are seeing a few Republicans emerging. Grassley -- Senators Grassley and Thune, you know, while saying on one hand, Joe Biden should receive the Presidential daily briefings. On the other, they stopped short of calling him President-elect. Is this creative semantics? What would you like to say to these members of your own party.

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Enough is enough. Look, they know. They absolutely know. There's no way you can tell me that Lindsey Graham does not know that Joe Biden is the President-elect and Donald Trump lost. Grassley knows it, Langford knows it. Everybody knows it. This is far from being Florida 2000, OK. We're talking about four states and we're talking about margins in the double digits of tens of thousands.

[15:35:00]

So knock it off, guys. You know, you cannot call yourself the national security party, you cannot call yourself the pro-military party and sit there in silence while you watch a demented, delusional man in denial just strip the Defense Department and strip the DHS department and get rid of everybody who doesn't go along with the idea that he's lost.

And at the same time, you know, not allowing Joe Biden to put a team together to have the intelligence necessary. This makes us vulnerable. And I know -- I know that they know, because, you know, I know Lindsey Graham. There's no way he can --

BALDWIN: Are you talking to them?

NAVARRO: Yes. Yes. Lindsey, you know, I mean, OK, it's one thing for Trump to be crazy. It's another thing to put the country in a threat, in a position of being vulnerable, in a position where an international foe can take advantage of this chaos and this lack of preparation. This is no joke. We have got to come together. We've got to make sure that Joe Biden has got his team in place and has got the intelligence necessary.

And listen, I mean it's time to unchain themselves from the albatross that has been Donald Trump around the neck of Republicans for the last four years. Not allowing them to have their own convictions.

BALDWIN: Well, stay tuned. Stay tuned because maybe in four more years, Garrett, sources are telling CNN that they expect Trump to tease this potential 2024 run when he does finally acknowledge the election results. These sources are telling us that they expect, you know, Trump to dismiss 2020 as fraudulent, but they expect him to hint that he's running again in four years. What do you think?

GRAFF: Yes, and I think you're right, Brooke, to look at his long-term influence on the party. Because if you look at it, if you're like Sarah Palin, who was also so polarizing and so inspirational to the Republicans, her peak influence in the party actually came in the 2010 midterms after she lost to Barack Obama and Joe Biden.

And I think there's a lot to auger and hint at the fact that the most MAGA-ish days of the Republican Party might actually come in 2022 or 2024. Because remember, even if Donald Trump ultimately decides not to run, there are other family members who have those aspirations.

I mean you could imagine for instance, Ivanka Trump running against AOC in the New York Senate race in 2022 or what if Don Jr., who in many ways has been the most popular Trump family surrogate decides that he wants to carry the MAGA banner forward in 2024.

BALDWIN: Ana Navarro, you hear all that Garrett's throwing out, not necessarily an impossibility, Ivanka, Don Jr., you know, drain the swampiness may not have seen its best heyday until, you know, the next couple of years. Is that possible? What are the Republicans you're talking to say?

NAVARRO: Look, I think there's no way that Donald Trump goes quietly into the good night. OK. He feeds off the rallies, he feeds off the crowds. And he's got a database of 70 million donors. And he's a marketer and a brand person at heart, and he's going to find a way to monetize that and to continue wielding influence and to continue feeding his ego with the rallies and the applause. Maybe ABC should just do us all a favor and cast him on "Dancing with The Stars" so he can do his macho man dance and still get votes.

BALDWIN: You really want to watch that?

NAVARRO: Well yes, no, I'm good with that. If they want to put all of them on there, put Ivanka, put Kayleigh, put them all on "Dancing With The Stars" so they can get their kicks and the can get their applause lines and they can be in the limelight and they get somebody voting for them, even if it's for who danced macho man or YMCA best.

But, you know, I don't think he's going away. And whether he runs or not in 2024, I can tell you he's going to continue teasing it and talking about it and keep it dangling in front of Republicans as a way to keep Republicans disciplined and in line and not rejecting him.

And also because he is going to find a way to make a buck out of this. Make no mistake about that. Whether it's a network or whether it's giving speeches and charging for rally attendance, whatever it is, believe me, this man is going to find a way to make a buck out of it. Because also, he's got debts. Let's not forget that little detail.

BALDWIN: Right, right. I'm still back on macho man, and you gave me a visual, Ana Navarro, that I'm not happy with. So thanks for that today. Ana Navarro, Garrett Graff, guys, thank you both for all of that and I think both of you are spot on.

Let's get you back to our breaking news now out of Arizona, where audits of ballots in the state's four biggest counties have found no voter fraud whatsoever. We have those new details coming in.

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[15:40:00]

BALDWIN: Breaking news out of Arizona, post-election audits completed just a short time ago find no evidence of fraud. More than half of all counties in the state have conducted these audits amid President Trump's baseless claims of systemic voter fraud. Arizona currently has the closest margin between Trump and President-elect Biden. CNN political director David Chalian at the magic wall with the latest on the vote count. So David, take us through where we stand right now.

[15:45:02]

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, let's start with what you were just reporting on, in Arizona. One of those states that we haven't yet called. There are three states, Brooke, that we haven't called yet. But that is a Joe Biden lead of 11,537 votes. It is a lead that has been shrinking. Ninety-nine percent though, of the estimated vote is now reporting.

We think 20 to 25,000 ballots outstanding, Donald Trump would need 75 percent of the outstanding vote to overtake Joe Biden. That's not what he's been winning when we've been getting these vote totals in. And in fact, down here in Pima County, which is 58.8 percent county for Joe Biden where the bulk of the outstanding vote is going to come in from. So this still looks like a tough, even though narrow margin, a tough margin for Donald Trump to overcome.

In North Carolina Donald Trump has got that 73,000 vote lead, very substantial. Today is the last day for votes that were cast and postmarked by election day. They could still be accepted up until today and counted. So we'll see if we get some last minute vote information from North Carolina. But it looks like Donald Trump will indeed be able to claim North Carolina as his. And then, of course, in Georgia, the third state we haven't called,

14,057 vote lead for Joe Biden, 49.5 percent to 49.2. We know that that state recount, hand recount is going to be under way. Tomorrow is the deadline for all the counties to report their certified totals to the state. So we'll see what we can learn from that -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Great. Inching closer. David, thank you.

CHALIAN: Yes.

BALDWIN: David Chalian for us in Washington at the magic wall. Want to pivot to breaking news now out of Chicago, where the mayor, Lori Lightfoot has just issued a stay-at-home order as cases are surging there. She's also telling people to cancel Thanksgiving. We have those details next.

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[15:50:00]

BALDWIN: Breaking news on Chicago here. U.S. cities are preparing for the worst as the nation deals with this unprecedented number of coronavirus cases. Chicago is now imposing some of the strictest measures in this country.

Mayor Lightfoot just tweeted this, quote, effective Monday I'm issuing a stay-at-home advisory asking all Chicagoans to only leave their homes for essential needs, including work and school.

Let's start there with Dr. Rod Davidson, He's an emergency room physician and Executive Director of the Committee to Protect Medicare. Dr. Rod Davidson, do you think what's happening in Chicago is just a sign of what's to come for the rest of us?

DR. ROD DAVIDSON, EMERGENCY ROOM PHYSICIAN: I think that Mayor Lightfoot is certainly within her bounds to do that. And I think many places should be doing that. I'm here in west Michigan where many hospitals are full.

I worked the other night and we had people waiting five to six hours to travel an hour, an hour and a half away. And every hospital in the city telling us they're also full. So if that's what she's trying to prevent in Chicago, I don't know their exact numbers or their capacity there, but, yes, she definitely is within her right and more people probably should be there.

BALDWIN: And she had said, and I'm hearing this from other, you know, doctors, saying, hey, cancel your Thanksgiving plans. But there's obviously that gray area of, all right, well, I want to get my family together. But can I have, you know, dinner outside? What's your advice to families?

DAVIDSON: Yes, I think we just have to reimagine what Thanksgiving should be this year. And I heard someone say the other day and I think it's the exact right message. If you want to be with your family next year or you want other people

to be with their families next year at Thanksgiving, maybe this year we can do it via video conference, Zoom, Skype, what have you , you know, something outside with extreme distancing, yes, I guess that's OK, but maybe just stick to your immediate family that you've been in your bubble with throughout and we can make sure we can all enjoy Thanksgiving together next year.

BALDWIN: Can you imagine all the iPads in the chairs of the would-be relatives Zooming? It's crazy but it is, it is our reality. How about New York City? You know, once the epicenter of this pandemic, they're putting new regulations in place starting tomorrow. There will be this 10 p.m. curfew for most bars and restaurants. Gatherings in homes will be limited to 10 people. And now there are reports that New York City could be on the brink of shutting down schools. Is that the right move?

DAVIDSON: Yes, I think they have been through this almost more than anybody else, and I think that's why the folks in New York are more prepared, I would think, on an earlier basis, to shut things down because they know how bad it can get.

I think the concern out here in rural parts of this country where I am, people didn't see it up close and personal, they saw it on TV in large part early on in this pandemic. And now we're paying the price for presidential rallies right in our backyard and for people not listening to mask, you know, mandates or suggestions and continuing to gather in large groups.

BALDWIN: Lastly, Dr. Davidson, again, you're in west Michigan. You are there on the front lines. What are you seeing in your hospital? What's concern number one for you?

DAVIDSON: Yes, concern number one is capacity. We see numbers all the time of how many hospital beds people have. And even if in your area you look at, you know, the dashboards and it looks like there are beds available, we have staff dropping like flies.

I know a system right near here in Muskegon, where the President had a rally three weeks ago, they have a hundred staff members out. And nurses working 16-hour shifts, normally 12, and it's even a long shift, people working that COVID floors at night, they're not used to working on. So we need to avoid that happening in as many places as possible. Because it definitely puts people at risk and we need to avoid putting people at unnecessary risk.

BALDWIN: Of course, especially as we go into this pandemic winter. Dr. Rob Davidson, thank you as always for all that you do. Good to see you.

DAVIDSON: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Thanks.

Our breaking news coverage continues here on CNN, as more Republicans suggest the transition to President-elect Biden should proceed, stay with us. You're watching CNN.

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[15:55:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. And we begin today with the 2020 LEAD. President-elect Joe Biden today heading to his beach house in Rehoboth, Delaware, with his family. No public events scheduled while outgoing President Trump is tweeting furiously not just falsehoods about the election but literally deranged and debunked conspiracy theories.