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Chaos in Government Amid Election Turmoil; Tony Schwartz is Interviewed about President Trump; Newark's Mayor is Interviewed about New Restrictions; China Congratulates Biden. Aired 9:30-10a

Aired November 13, 2020 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

MIKE ROGERS, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY COMMENTATOR: Part of America on a good day. And so all of this chaos they'll use to sow doubt about American's leadership in the world, that our democracy isn't really a democracy, that kind of thing. Same with Russia TV, Russia's social media propaganda campaigns. The same kind of thing they did in 2016, tried to do more in 2020. So they'll continue to ramp those up.

And then you get the North Koreas, the Irans, wondering, you know, what can I get away with in the next few months where I don't think people are paying quite attention that they might. That kind of thing worries you a little bit. Something that we're going to have to watch. That's why you want to send this signal, guess what, I may be leaving on the 20th, but the next team is standing by and ready to go. And, matter of fact, we're going through this transition. When you halt that all, it just sends the wrong message.

Remember, there's a pretty talented group that's assembling now to try to get through this. They've got some experience, hands on the till, so they'll have a better sense. But the message that it send to the rest of the world is just -- it's terrible.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. You know you mentioned foreign disinformation. The trouble is, at this point, a lot of that disinformation is coming from inside the country, right? I mean the president talking about a stolen election where the DHS says, no, this was the fairest -- well, the most secure U.S. election in history.

The sad fact is a lot of voters buy it. They buy the disinformation. And I wonder, President Obama talked about this in his book, I wonder, do you agree that this is causing damage?

ROGERS: Listen, I have family members getting in my grill because they think this thing was stolen. And so if let's -- if we can be fair about this, that whole resistance movement was a movement designed to try to take down the legitimacy of a Trump presidency. OK, I got it. I thought that was wrong. I've said it was wrong. But -- but we've never --

SCIUTTO: Though Democrats appointed -- I mean the difference, as you know, right, is that Democrats, Hillary Clinton conceded the election days afterwards, right, didn't have this long process.

ROGERS: No, no, I gotcha. The second part of that sentence, Jim, was, I've quite seen it where the chief executive --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

ROGERS: Runs into that crowd, you know, into that mosh pit, if you will, and that is not helpful. And it does serve to weaken institutions. And I get losing is never easy in politics. But this kind of lashing out is not helpful.

If you have some evidence, if you want to get up and be statesman-like and say, listen, I'm going to allow the transition to begin, right, so that they're prepared if they win, well, go ahead and have that speech. But this is something different and I think it's very corrosive. And it's going to further divide Americans. I mean this Thanksgiving, I think you better take helmets to your Thanksgiving dinner. You might actually need them. I mean I've never seen people so angry, so divided.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

Final question, your name has been floated about potentially joining a Biden administration. Would you take a position if asked?

ROGERS: Well, A, they've not reached out to me directly. But I will say that, listen, if Trump had reached out and said will you help me play a role in the national security of the United States, pretty hard to say no to a president of the United States.

SCIUTTO: Mike Rogers, thanks so much for joining this morning. We wish you the best of luck.

ROGERS: Thanks for having me. Thanks, Jim.

SCIUTTO: If at first you don't concede, run, run again? A look at what President Trump might, his closest advisers say, do next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:37:56]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back.

Well, this morning, the president is still not conceding an election he lost and is, in fact, saying he might run again in 2024. "The New York Times" reporting he is talking seriously about announcing a 2024 bid.

Joining me now to discuss is Tony Schwartz. He spent many hours with President Trump when he co-authored Trump's book "The Art of the Deal." He has a new book of his own. It is called "Dealing with the Devil: My Mother, Trump and Me."

Tony Schwartz, good to have you on this morning. TONY SCHWARTZ, CO-AUTHOR OF DONALD TRUMP'S BOOK "THE ART OF THE DEAL":

Good to be with you.

SCIUTTO: You know the current president well and you wrote in "The Washington Post" the following, Trump will continue to insist that he won by a lot until bad people took it away from him. Once Joe Biden is sworn in as president in January, Trump will race around making speeches to earn big fees and feel relevant above all to keep up his doomed effort to prove his worthiness to himself.

What do you believe his end goal is here?

SCHWARTZ: I don't believe Trump actually ever has an end goal. It's -- he lives literally in each moment. And I think Maggie Haberman's "New York Times" piece makes that case this morning very well, which is that he is just trying to stay on -- in our -- in our attention and to seem both to himself and to us powerful. And that's what's driving him in every moment. What can keep me from feeling the deep emptiness and weakness that is actually underneath all of this bluster?

SCIUTTO: There's a lot of talk beyond -- and I want to get to the possibility of how credible this is of a 2024 run, but setting up to start if not a media empire, maybe media -- certainly media appearances but maybe a Trump TV or a Trump radio. Credible? Where do you think he takes that? Because that's certainly one way to keep yourself in the news.

SCHWARTZ: Yes. I mean, I think that's so critical to him that I think it is a viable possibility. I think he is deeply lazy and he is getting older.

[09:40:02]

He has lost more than one step. And so the idea that he could mobilize that effort by himself, that's inconceivable.

But, on the other hand, he has a lot of people around him in the Republican Party and, you know, in allied outside the party that could help him put him -- for example, I keep thinking that he might take over for Rush Limbaugh. That would be a nice perch for him. I don't see him starting a new media network. In fact, I think it's more likely that he makes up with Fox because they both want to make a lot of money and he gets a show on Fox or some other way to continue his visibility there.

SCIUTTO: Is a run in 2024 credible, a real thing, or a way to continue to occupy that space and suck up the oxygen?

SCHWARTZ: It's both, Jim. There is no question that he has the, you know, rabid support of nearly half the country. You know, not -- I mean we're now seeing that the -- it wasn't -- the vote wasn't as close as we thought it would be. But he still has enormous support and it's very emotional, it's very passionate. And, yes, I think he could run.

I also think four years is like 400 years was 50 years ago -- SCIUTTO: Yes.

SCHWARTZ: Meaning that so many things can and will happen over the next four years that even the sense of distress and anxiety that I'm feeling right now, and I think many Americans are, you know, could change in a moment when Biden comes in.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

SCHWARTZ: What's most depressing about Trump is that he has really changed the norms and democracy was saved by Biden's election, but it teeters still and will continue to teeter and certainly so long as Trump is around to make it do so.

SCIUTTO: You already knew him pretty well, haven written this book with him and spent a lot of time with him. What have you learned from him? What didn't you know that you've learned in these past weeks and months?

SCHWARTZ: Well, I have never learned something from Trump that I didn't know after two weeks of being around him. He's the most predictable of all men. Nothing he has done surprises me. It's just when he is up against the wall, he always doubles down.

And what I do think is that it's turned out that he does, in fact, have one genius. I've been asked tons of times over the last four years, what's Trump's strength and what -- can you tell me what actually is good about him?

I cannot tell you what's good about him but I can tell you that I've come to believe that he is a brilliant propagandist. He is a natural autocrat. He would have successfully become an autocratic leader in his second term had he won. And that's what's so frightening, so terrifying, so distressing about his continued relevance.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Yes, and the number of folks willing to enable that.

Tony Schwartz, good to have you on. I'm sure we'll be talking about this for some time to come.

SCHWARTZ: Thank you.

Well, as cases go up, the city of Newark, New Jersey, is cracking down. The mayor joins us next on his plans to get the outbreak under control in his city.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:47:52]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back.

The city of Newark, New Jersey, is implementing tough new restrictions as new coronavirus infections surge there. The city, the largest in the state, saw one of every five coronavirus tests come back positive last week. That's a 20 percent -- nearly 20 percent positivity rate. Joining me now is the mayor of Newark, Ras Baraka.

Mayor, thanks so much for taking the time this morning.

MAYOR RAS BARAKA (D), NEWARK, NEW JERSEY: Thanks for having me.

SCIUTTO: So communities in the northeast, they seem to have had a handle on the outbreak by taking early, swift action. Hospitalizations up, infections up. What happened, in your view?

BARAKA: Well, I just think a little COVID fatigue and people began to relax because we were doing so well. We were at a 68 percent in April and we got all the way down below 2 percent, down to 1 percent. And, you know, people began to take it easy.

We began opening up indoors, gyms, barber shops, beauty parlors, restaurants, everything began opening up. And I think people got a little -- -- they -- they -- they lost track of where we were. The more asymptomatic people are getting infected an they're infecting their entire families. So we had whole families that are getting sick now.

SCIUTTO: OK. SO you've taken some steps, curfew in three zip codes, limit on sporting events, limits on group sizes, not a broader lockdown. Are you thinking that it may be necessary to at least ask people, right, to stay at home entirely for longer periods of time or do you think that targeted efforts like this can work?

BARAKA: I think that we have more information now and that the doctors have more information that we're clear, the epidemiologists, disease investigators are able to identify where it's coming from. So targeting things can be helpful.

But I do think it is -- it is also helpful to tell people to stay inside and come out when they absolutely have to, when it's necessary, because if all else fails, we know that that works because it's been proven to work. It worked in our city. It worked in the state of New Jersey. When things get out of hand, we should continue to do that again.

SCIUTTO: Schools are of particular concern. Of course, to parents, to children.

[09:50:02]

Do you believe schools can remain open safely?

BARAKA: At this point, no. And, you know, with the -- we were just preparing to open up our schools in Newark. You know, at least in a hybrid way. But right now, as the cases are increasing, I don't think it's safe for us to do that at this point.

SCIUTTO: All right. And I know parents hear that, that will be disappointing words for them.

BARAKA: Yes. SCIUTTO: Tell us about bridging the gap now, right, because here we are in November. There's great hope about vaccines. But, still, got to wait a few months for those to be widely available nationally.

How do you get the city of Newark and the people of Newark from where we are today to that -- to that point?

BARAKA: Well, I think, you know, I've been telling people this is the last quarter. We have to play defense through this final leg of it. You know, we -- we have to be as careful and cautious as we can to make sure the virus doesn't spread and the infection rate doesn't continue to grow, that it goes in the opposite direction.

Then we have to have kind of educational, informational opportunities for the people in our community about what this vaccine is, how to take it, you know, where -- where it will be available at, how it will help reduce the spread of this virus. We have to have information out to our communities. The same way we're doing with the -- the -- COVID, telling people about COVID and how it's transmitted and how to protect yourself. So education and information has been widely successful for us in the city and we'll continue that way.

SCIUTTO: One of the people now advising President-elect Biden, Michael Osterholm, has brought up the idea of a national temporary lockdown. Though I spoke with Symone Sanders a short time ago. She has said that's not in the cards as moving forward they believe more targeted.

How would you react if there was a -- imposition of some sort of national shutdown ban (ph) or do you think that's not necessary?

BARAKA: Well, I think it would have been -- when we first started this, I think that that would have been incredibly important and necessary to do a national shutdown, at least for two weeks for everybody and take into consideration that the businesses were closed and have the resources available for them so they could last through these two weeks. I mean completely shut everything down. I think that that would have been very helpful.

Right now, in the middle of this thing, I think that we can target specific areas and places because we have more information now than we did before.

But I do believe if things get out of control, more so than they are now, that we do need to contemplate a national shutdown.

SCIUTTO: Well, listen, Mayor Baraka, we wish you and the people of Newark the best of luck as we go forward.

BARAKA: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, nearly a week after Joe Biden and Kamala Harris made their victory speeches, a major U.S. rival is now finally acknowledging their win before many lawmakers in this country. We'll have an update.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [09:57:09]

SCIUTTO: Well, despite President Trump's refusal to acknowledges the true outcome of the election, along with many members of his party, messages to President-elect Biden are pouring in from around the world. China the latest country to issue congratulations to the president-elect, saying in a statement that they, quote, respect the choice of the American people.

Ivan Watson is in Hong Kong.

Ivan, what else does China have to say and are they looking forward to a warmer relationship?

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good question. The Chinese foreign ministry, in its statement, it went on to say, Jim, quote, we extend congratulations to Mr. Biden and Ms. Harris. Meanwhile, we understand the results of the U.S. election will be determined according to U.S. laws and procedures.

Where do relations stand now? Well, I think they're at the worst that we've even in decades between Beijing and Washington. That same foreign ministry spokesperson, in his same -- in the same briefing was slamming Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, accusing him of fabricated lies when he asserted that Taiwan is not part of China. You've had a trade war, tit for tat, consulate closures and just this week President Trump signed an executive order banning investment into companies that are believed to be owned by the Chinese military.

Jim.

SCIUTTO: Is there any concern about what China might do during the transition period? Transitions normally dicey. This one in particular because you have a dispute within the company about the results of this.

WATSON: Well, you've got a number of flash points. The issue of Taiwan, where you've had the Taiwanese air force and Chinese warplanes flying in close proximity in recent months. The South China Sea, where the U.S. Navy and Chinese warships are in close proximity to each other and accidents can happen.

The question of also what the Trump administration might do. Clearly President Trump is getting in some parting shots and he and his top aides have talked about getting revenge on China, even though at the end of the last Month, when he's believed to have had his last direct communication with Chinese (INAUDIBLE) Xi Jinping by phone, President Trump ended a tweet after that call about the coronavirus pandemic saying, quote, we are working closely together, much respect, exclamation point.

Chinese state media commentators are not anticipating a dramatic improvement in ties under a Biden administration. They are predicting that at the very least communication will get more professional and not be subject to misspelled presidential tweets.

SCIUTTO: That would be a step.

Ivan Watson in Hong Kong, thanks very much.

[10:00:03]

A very good Friday morning to you. It is Friday. I'm Jim Sciutto.

Sadly, a virus is spiraling out of control