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Cracks Forming in Trump's GOP Wall of Support; U.S. Reporting Record Infections, Hospitalizations as Pandemic Rages. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired November 13, 2020 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: A very good morning to you. It is Friday. I'm Jim Sciutto.

Sadly, a virus is spiraling out of control in this country and a president is trying to stay in control. At a time we are seeing record-breaking numbers of infections and hospitalizations, the president notably silent on a dire health crisis. He is not, however, staying quiet about his post-election fight or attempted fight even as Republican support seems to be crumbling and his own Homeland Security officials appointed by this president say the election, contradicting Trump was, quote, the most secure in American history.

This election wasn't just secure, its results more decisive. CNN has now projected that President-elect Joe Biden will win Arizona, that, of course, a long time Republican stronghold.

We're going to begin though with John Harwood at the White House. John, what is the president up to and what is next?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN ANCHOR: Jim, it's kind of surreal. The president is shielding himself from the embarrassment of his defeat by not facing the cameras, as he typically does. We haven't seen him in more than a week. He is sending out aides to make preposterous claims on television. Peter Navarro, his economic adviser, was on Fox Business earlier today, he said we're here at the White House preparing for a second Trump term because, clearly, he won the election. Nuts.

But behind the scenes, the president is also trying to prepare how to turn this situation to his advantage, sending out fundraising emails that benefit his super PAC as well as some sort of legal defense fund. Obviously, the legal cases that he is mounting aren't going anywhere because he has no evidence for them. Judges are rapidly throwing them out of court. He is trying to figure out some segue out of this that doesn't require him gracefully conceding to Joe Biden, perhaps even announcing a 2024 presidential run, which would allow him to, in effect, continue the campaign.

What the president values, of course, is the theatrics, the reality show of all of this. Everyone is talking about him now wondering what he is going to do next. The problem, of course, is that he is the president of the United States for another two months. And his inattention to his job, to this pandemic that's raging across the country is having deadly consequences for the people who voted for him, as well as the people who didn't.

SCIUTTO: John Harwood, good to have you at the White House, thank you.

CNN's M.J. Lee, she is in Delaware following President-elect Joe Biden. So, M.J., so Biden is at his beach house this weekend. His new chief of staff making some news.

M.J. LEE, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: He is. Jim, President Trump may still be in denial, but President-elect Joe Biden is moving forward with his transition efforts. And you're right, his newly appointed White House chief of staff, Ron Klain, making some news in a new interview trying to detail the work that the team is already doing in trying to contain COVID-19. And in that interview, he revealed that Biden is going to have a so-called COVID coordinator that he works with day in and day out to try to contain the virus once he is actually in office.

And he also revealed that Biden has already had conversations with Republican-elected officials, though he did say there was one prominent Republican that he still has not connected with.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RON KLAIN, CHIEF OF STAFF TO PRESIDENT-ELECT BIDEN: Joe Biden has spoken to Republicans, he has spoken to some Republican senators, some Republican governors, I'm not going to into the names. He has not spoken though to Senator McConnell.

Look, I think Senator McConnell still seems to be insisting somehow that President Trump won the election. He didn't. There will be a time and a place for Joe Biden and Senator McConnell to talk. Obviously, need to no introduction.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEE: Now, Biden is here in Rehoboth Beach, where he has a beach house and he is slated to have more meetings today with transition advisers. Just to remind everyone, things he still does not have access to, the presidential daily briefings, transition funds and these messages from foreign leaders that are just sitting at the State Department. But when you talk to his transition team, they are saying they are not deterred and January 20th is the one date they are looking forward to, that is, of course, inauguration day. Jim?

SCIUTTO: They are moving forward. M.J. Lee, thanks very much.

Well, this morning a hand recount of the presidential race is now under way in the state of Georgia. All counties in the state now have until Wednesday to complete that hand recount.

CNN's Amara Walker joins us now from inside a recount center in Gwinnett County, Georgia. I believe it just started this morning, Amara. I mean, that is a lot of ballots to count, but I understand they believe they got the staff and they got the time to do it by Wednesday.

AMARA WALKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That is what they are saying. The staffing, they are still working on, at least according to Gwinnett County officials. The county hasn't begun yet. They started at 9:00. The election workers here did take an oath, they got a quick orientation.

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And, look, election officials are telling us, we are trying to figure things out as this thing goes along because, again, this has never been done before, a statewide hand audit of a presidential election.

I want to show you what is going on behind me and give you the lay of the land. First, I want to show you these boxes that have been opened. These are concealed containers that contain the ballots. There are 64 tables here, audit teams of two. Each of the team members will be going through these ballots from inside these concealed containers. They're going to check which presidential candidate was chosen and then place the ballot into a Donald Trump pile or a Joe Biden pile.

And then they're going to hand count these ballots and then the total will be entered into a laptop in a different area here.

Keep in mind, these election workers are only counting the ballots, they are not verifying any signatures. In this roped off area, that is where they're going to be. There is also going to be superintendents walking around, answering questions, helping with the audit. There will also be monitors of party appointees who will also be able to walk around, they won't able to talk to election workers or interfere in any way.

And then along the perimeter of these roped off areas, the public will be allowed to come in. Of course, they will be limited to a capacity, but election officials have been clear that they want this process to be as transparent as possible.

But as I was saying, Jim, election officials are saying, look, we're learning things as we go, we're still trying to recruit people to come in and hand count these ballots. And, overall, I mean, the expectations, even from the secretary of state, Brad Raffensperger, who is a Republican, they have been, look, it's unlike that this hand audit is going to change the outcome of the results. And they hope that this actually will basically reinstall, instill confidence into the Georgia voting system and that it was accurate and it was fair, but it remains to be seen.

Is this going to be running smoothly, will the counties be able to meet the deadline?

SCIUTTO: Just to be clear, how many pairs of eyes will look at each ballot to do this hand recount?

WALKER: So, 64 times two. I don't want to do the math on the air, but if you do 64 times because there're 64 tables, teams of two. So that is here at this particular location in Gwinnett County. In total, so Gwinnett County is the second largest county in the state of Georgia. We're talking about 416,000 ballots that will have to be examined by hand, and 124,000 of them absentee ballots. And election officials are saying at the county level that the process will be slow-going because the absentee ballots are the ones that are more complicated, they are human marked, there are bubbles filled in as opposed to being printed by a text. So that is where they're going to start.

Once they pull them out the ballots and start counting, we'll be able to let you know if things are running smoothly and if there are any signs of possible delays of meeting this deadline, which is six days away, Wednesday, it's a tall order.

SCIUTTO: Well, it's democracy in motion. Amara Walker, thanks very much.

Also this morning, in Pennsylvania, a law firm representing the Trump campaign's long shot attempt at blocking President-elect Joe Biden's win in the state is leaving the case now. The withdrawal came in an overnight filing to the judge, a firm saying new counsel may be brought in. A hearing on evidence for this particular case is set for next week.

With me now, Republican election lawyer Ben Ginsberg. Mr. Ginsberg, always good to have you on the program.

BEN GINSBERG, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks. Nice to be here.

SCIUTTO: All right. So let's begin. You have experience, of course, from the 2000 election dispute. There is no evidence of widespread fraud, DHS said it very clearly last night. Legally, are there any credible legal paths that remain to challenge the results of this election?

GINSBERG: The challenges so far brought by the Trump campaign have been very broad-based allegations of fraud. And so far in none of the states has there been evidence to back that up. What you do have in their court filings are complaints about process. We didn't get close enough to see. Unlikely that you would disenfranchise voters on those grounds.

SCIUTTO: Okay. Let's look ahead, because the president has apparently discussed in recent days the remarkable and somewhat alarming possibility that some electors would go rogue and, in effect, overrule the popular vote in their own state and select him as president. Legally, constitutionally, can that happen?

GINSBERG: Well, probably not. The U.S. Supreme Court issued a ruling on rogue electors last winter before this election. And they found that states could bind the electors to the popular vote.

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So the whole idea of rogue electors is unlikely this time.

I think the Trump campaign is probably trying more to get legislatures to step in if there are deadlocks in the states.

SCIUTTO: Okay. So, that possibility, you have Republican-controlled legislatures in state such as Pennsylvania. Could Republicans there who hold the majority say, forget what the popular vote is, we're going to swing our electoral votes to President Trump?

GINSBERG: So that is the theoretical possibility. In other words, if the certification process doesn't get done really before the December 8th Electoral College safe harbor, then there is a possibility in the law that legislators could step in and name a slate. But that could only be if there weren't certified results from that state.

And in this instance, you would be asking legislators to basically cast aside, pay no attention to voice of their own constituents. And that is a really big ask for a legislature.

SCIUTTO: Now, in the bizarre world that we now occupy, there have been surprises and this president does not appear willing to give up. Let's just hypothetically say if that were to happen, could that be overruled, for instance, could it be vetoed by the governor, Democratic governor, for instance, in Pennsylvania or how would the Supreme Court deal with this if it got there?

GINSBERG: Each state is a little bit different on the official role of the certification, so that you need to go state by state to determine that. And because we're dealing with a 100-year-old law that has never been litigated, I think the question of whether the governor could step in or not is -- would be a first time that we'd be dealing with that issue. But it is, again, unlikely that the will of the voters gets overruled.

SCIUTTO: Okay. So let's return to the real world that we occupy today. You maintain, although it is sometimes bizarre in very real circumstances, you maintain relationships in the Republican Party. We are seeing some public comments now saying it might be time to brief the president-elect, indicators there. How much longer do you believe this dispute goes?

GINSBERG: The president has made these charges about fraud. And now he has state processes to see whether he can make that case. And, you know, the process ends a little bit different in each state, but it is basically between November 20th and December 1st in all those states in contention. And I think Republicans will let the president play this out as much as he can, try and make the indicate he's been unable to make before about widespread fraud. But if he can't make that case and it comes down to the state certifying their results, I think Republicans -- I hope Republicans will stand in and say, you got to listen to the votes of the people.

SCIUTTO: Just very briefly, because there are still Americans nervous about this, about the popular will being overturned here, should they be?

GINSBERG: I believe in the institutions of our government. And the fact that what you saw there in the pictures from Gwinnett County are Americans on a very local level doing the best for the good of the order, and I think that that is the spirit with which we go through things. And I believe that that will prevail.

SCIUTTO: All right, your lips to God's ears. Ben Ginsberg, thanks very much.

GINSBERG: Thanks, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Let's hope he's listening.

Still to come this hour, COVID infections skyrocketing across the nation and so are hopes for a vaccine being widely available in the next few months. Ahead, I'm going to speak to Dr. Peter Salk. His father created the polio vaccine. He's an expert in his right. What he thinks of this race.

And pressure growing for President-elect Biden to receive as per normal intelligence briefings to keep this country safe. What is at stake if he doesn't get them? I'm going to speak to someone who actually briefed President Trump himself.

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SCIUTTO: Today, more people are now hospitalized with coronavirus in the U.S. than ever before, this as the U.S. tops its own world record for the most cases in a single day, not a record you want to have, recording more than 154,000 new infections nationwide on Thursday. Utah is one of 14 states that reported individual one-day records as intensive care beds reached capacity across the state.

Lucy Kafanov joins me now from Salt Lake City. Lucy, so how are hospitals managing to handle this?

LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, the numbers across the entire U.S. are bad, ten straight days of 100,000 cases or more. Yesterday, the worst day ever, 153,000 cases, and those numbers are reflected here in Utah. Hospitals are strained. Yesterday saw nearly 4,000 new cases reported, the positivity rate now surpassing 23 percent.

And doctors are extremely worried. We spoke to one doctor yesterday in an ICU ward who says it takes just a few weeks for those new case numbers to translate to hospitalizations. They are bracing for the worst.

And one of the things that we sometimes tend to lose in these statistics is the human impact. We spoke to one woman here in Utah, Lindsay Wootton. She tragically lost her mother and grandfather to COVID-19 last month.

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She describes the worst day of her life. Minutes after doctors told her that her mom wouldn't survive, she got a phone call saying that her grandpa was also going to die. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINDSAY WOOTTON, LOST MOTHER AND GRANDFATHER TO COVID-19: We called my grandpa and I put him on speakerphone so he could talk to my mom. He called my mom, kiddo. He called us all kiddo. But he said, kiddo, I'm not doing good, and she said, dad, I'm not either. And he said, Trey (ph), I'm dying, and she said, dad, I am too. And he said, then I'll look for you in heaven.

So it is frustrating that people blush it off because it is just the flu because for some people, it is not. For some people, it costs their life. It took my mom that's irreplaceable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAFANOV: And this story, this example, her pain, it is just a microcosm of what is happening all across the state of Utah and all across America. So many families dealing with the tragic aftermath of what COVID-19 can do, it can claim lives. Lindsay's message is that this isn't about politics, if something as simple as wearing a mask could save even one life, why wouldn't you do that? It is about human decency, it is about saving lives. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Yes. Sadly, it has been politicized despite the facts. Lucy Kafanov, thanks very much.

Well, joining me now is Dr. Peter Salk. He is an infectious disease expert. He is president as well of the of The Jonas Salk Legacy Foundation. The late Dr. Jonas Salk was Peter's father. He invented the polio vaccine back in the 1950s. As a result, and he saved so many lives. Peter and his brother were actually among the first to be vaccinated.

Doctor, so good to have you on this morning.

DR. PETER SALK, PRESIDENT, THE JONAS SALK LEGACY FOUNDATION: Thank you very much, Jim. It's a pleasure to be here.

SCIUTTO: So let's begin, if I can, with the current outbreak. You have warned against any attempt to rush a coronavirus vaccine. You did so back in the spring, encouraged a cautious approach. I wonder based on what you've seen now, has this nation taken a cautious approach? Are you concerned that they are rushing this?

SALK: I think there was a period when there was a lot of concern when politics was wrapped in the whole picture. But I do think that we're taking meaningful steps. And the news that came out on Monday absolutely bowled me over, the results from the Pfizer BioNTech trial, the interim results, which are suggesting that that vaccine may be as much as 92 percent effective, I mean, that just had an enormous impact on me.

SCIUTTO: You -- well, your father -- this nation owes a debt -- the world owes a debt to your father but also to you because your father gave the polio vaccine to you and your siblings early on in the testing stages here. I wonder, when you look at the vaccine for coronavirus, based on what you know now and as an expert yourself, will you get the vaccine once it is made available?

SALK: I want to see what the results look like and the safety profile, but I think, absolutely, there is very little doubt in my mind that we're going to end up you with a vaccine that will be effective and I think it's very likely that we'll end up with a vaccine -- with not just one vaccine, many vaccines that will be effective and also safe.

SCIUTTO: Sad fact about where we are right now is that significant portions of the country say they don't trust a vaccine. Most recent CNN polling, it's about 50 percent of the population have said that they will take it. Of course, that is well below what you need to successfully protect the population, what can scientists, medical experts, but also, crucially, the president-elect do once he takes office to encourage people to get over that fear or those questions?

SALK: I think some people are ready to step up immediately. Others want to wait and see to be sure that what is taking place seems to be safe, seems to be being effective. And my personal view is that there is no need to try and pressure people at this point to take the vaccine. You're quite right, the larger percentage of people in the population that will become vaccinated, and if the vaccine works, that will protect other people that won't be vaccinated, the so-called herd effect.

But the vaccines will be rolled out slowly. We can't rush that and that is going to give people time to take a look and see and feel for themselves that, okay, now it is time for me to get the vaccine as well.

SCIUTTO: There are enormous logistical challenges with this. I mean, we're a country of more than 300 million people, but particularly, for instance, with the Pfizer vaccine because that one requires being refrigerated well below freezing. That is a lot of refrigerators out there to get around.

SALK: Yes.

SCIUTTO: In your view, from what you've seen, does the U.S. have a plan at this point to do that effectively?

[10:25:03]

SALK: You know, I don't actually have an answer to that. There has been a lot of attention put on it. But I don't know frankly where things stand. I would expect that there will be facilities in place, that the techniques and technologies and support systems will be there to get the vaccine out as rapidly as is necessary once the supply is available.

SCIUTTO: Final question, if I can, because the polio vaccine not only saved lives and horrible disabilities in this country but around the world. I wonder how important it is for the United States going forward with coronavirus vaccines, because it looks like there will be more than one, but to prioritize distribution not just here but around the world. SALK: Yes, it is a really important question. A lot of attention has been put on the questions of making access to the vaccine available to the populations, the segments of the populations, the communities that need it the most. And there is a good plan in place as far as that is concerned.

I'm afraid the United States has been lagging a bit behind in terms of its overt expression of responsibility for the rest of the world. And I would hope that in the coming months, that will change and that the United States will rejoin the World Health Organization and rejoin the programs that will help to make sure that this vaccine is available all around the world, because the entire world needs to be protected if we're going to get rid of this infection.

SCIUTTO: And doing things like joining -- rejoining the WHO, I should say, appears to be on the president-elect's list.

Well, Dr. Peter Salk, it is a true honor, a pleasure to speak to you given your history and all you and your family have done for this country and the world.

SALK: Thank you very much, Jim. I'm glad to be here.

SCIUTTO: Well, could denying President-elect Biden the presidential daily intelligence briefing have lasting national security impacts to this country? To our safety? I'm going to ask a former top intelligence official who briefed not only President Obama but President Trump.

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