Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Gov. Whitmer Says She Won't Be "Bullied" As Trump COVID Adviser Urges Michigan To "Rise Up" Against New Rules; Biden Transition Team To Meet With Pfizer, Drug Companies; States Scramble To Stop The Spread As The U.S. Surpasses 11 Million Cases Of COVID-19; Utah Governor Issues Statewide Mask Mandate, Other Restrictions; Obama: President Trump's False Election Fraud Claims Endanger Democracy; NASA And SpaceX Make History With Manned Mission Launch. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired November 15, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:40]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Hello, and welcome to this special edition of CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. And we begin the hour with a painful reminder of our grim coronavirus reality and how the President is making it clear he is focusing on conspiracy theories, not the survival of the American people.

Take a look at your screen right here. Eleven million cases reveals the depths of the U.S. failure to control the coronavirus. Tonight, Michigan is implementing new restrictions to avert a winter disaster. But already pushback from the President's preferred medical adviser Dr. Scott Atlas.

Also today, a revelation that underlines the scary truth of how little the President has been engaged in fighting COVID behind the scenes. Dr. Anthony Fauci told CNN this morning, it's been five months since the President met in person with the Coronavirus Task Force.

Now, look at the Presidential twitter feed and you will see a steady drumbeat of disinformation. It has been eight days since the election was called and the President still refuses to concede. But this morning, the President tweeted the quiet part out loud at least to him. "He won" are the first two words of the President's 7:47 a.m. tweet. He is Joe Biden. The rest is a hodgepodge of unsubstantiated allegations from an alternate universe.

The President later insisted the election is still up for grabs. It isn't. The consensus view is that a continued delay and formalizing the transition will derail the smooth running of government and create national security vulnerabilities. Former President Obama says it's past time for President Trump to bow to reality and for Republicans to quit playing along.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The President doesn't like to lose and never admits loss. I'm more troubled by the fact that other Republican officials who clearly know better are going along with this, are humoring him in this fashion. It is one more step in delegitimizing not just the incoming Biden administration but democracy generally. And that's a dangerous path.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Dangerous path.

Coming up soon, a look inside the inner workings of the Trump White House. Three former insiders give us their insight into what is happening right now in the West Wing. Will in the efforts to convince the President to concede work? And will a transition delay, jeopardize U.S. national security? Those are some of the key questions we're going to be asking them.

But, first, we are covering every angle of these critical days between the election and the inauguration. Jeremy Diamond is at the White House. Jessica Dean is covering the Biden transition. And we've got Dr. Celine Gounder who is on the President-elect's COVID advisory team standing by as well.

Let's start with CNN's Jeremy Diamond at the White House. A remarkable back and forth this evening, Jeremy, between the Governor of Michigan and the President's preferred medical adviser. What's going on?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. Well, first of all, this isn't the first time that the President and his team have singled out Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer. She has been a frequent target of the President's attacks as she has tried to get control of the coronavirus pandemic in her state.

In this evening, after she announced these new restrictions on daily life in the state of Michigan to try and rein in this exploding pandemic that is happening across the country, including in Michigan, the President's preferred medical adviser Dr. Scott Atlas, who we should point out, is not a public health expert, he is not an epidemiologist, he is a neuroradiologist who is a -- works on free market policy issues.

And he is tweeting, "The only way this stops is if people rise up. You get what you accept. #FreedomMatters #StepUp. And that was in direct response to these new measures from the Michigan Governor.

Now, it's especially notable because Governor Whitmer, she was the target of a kidnapping plot that was foiled by law enforcement officials last month. Dr. Atlas is now actually making clear in a follow up tweet that was just posted saying that he was never talking at all about violence, saying that people should peacefully protest these measures.

Now, the Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, she has responded this evening with, Wolf Blitzer. Listen to what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D), MICHIGAN: Well, we know that the White House likes to single us out here in Michigan, me out in particular.

[22:05:00] I'm not going to be bullied into not following reputable scientists and medical professionals. I listened to people that actually have studied and are well respected worldwide on these issues, not the -- not the individual that is doing the President's bidding on this one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DIAMOND: And the Michigan Governor making very clear that she's not going to be deterred in her actions to try and rein in this pandemic. The President, meanwhile, he isn't doing much at all to rein in this pandemic. He hasn't been talking about what Americans should be doing during this time. He hasn't been echoing the message of public health experts. Instead, he's been echoing misinformation, as he so frequently does on this pandemic. Pam?

BROWN: Just really quick on Dr. Atlas, he's claiming that he wasn't encouraging violence and that he didn't, you know, this wasn't in regards to the fact that she had been targeted in a kidnapping plot before for her prior COVID restriction she had enacted, What did he mean? Do we have any better understanding of what he meant by saying rise up? What was his overall message?

DIAMOND: Well, all he's saying, now I can read you the full tweet, he says, hey, I never was talking at all about violence. People vote, people peacefully protest, never would I endorse or incite violence. Never. And so, you know, you can read into his tweet as you will.

But, ultimately, what this is, is Dr. Scott Atlas, who has the presidency or who is his preferred medical adviser, he is going against the consensus of every public health expert, who you would hope that the President of the United States would be listening to. Instead, the President is listening to Dr. Scott Atlas, who is not an epidemiologist. Pam?

BROWN: That sums it up. Jeremy Diamond, thank you so much.

Let's turn to Jessica Dean now in Wilmington, Delaware. Jessica, word from the Biden camp tonight is that they plan to meet with drugmaker Pfizer this week after a potential breakthrough on their vaccine candidate, right?

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Pam. We heard from incoming Chief of Staff Ron Klain interview earlier today, he said they do plan to meet with Pfizer and other drug companies. This is they continue to push ahead in their transition. They formed that COVID-19 advisory board last week, and have been trying to do what they can while this transition, the formal transition remains in limbo. Because remember, the General Services Administration, the GSA has not signed off on this transition.

So, the formal transition hasn't been triggered yet, which means the Biden transition team is not legally allowed to formally reach out to federal agencies, to federal employee -- current federal employees. So, they're having to do a lot of this work where they can, with private companies, with local officials. Here's claim from earlier today. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RON KLAIN, INCOMING WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: We're going to have meetings between our top scientific advisers and the officials of these drug companies, not just Pfizer, but there are other promising vaccines as well. We're going to start those consultations this week. Well, you know, it's great to have a vaccine. But vaccines don't save lives, vaccinations save lives. And that means you got to get that vaccine --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

KLAIN: -- into people's arms all over this country. It's a giant logistical project.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: And the Biden team understands what an enormous undertaking this is going to be to distribute this vaccine. That's why they really want to get going on this. They want a seamless transition on January 20th. So, right now, for example, people at Health and Human Services are talking through how to distribute this vaccine, the Biden transition team not really able at all, to be talking with them, which makes this not an easy thing to do. And time is just taking away.

And Pam, another area where this is having a major effect is national security. Biden's still not getting those presidential daily briefings, which would be normal for President-elect at this point in the process. That means they're not able to follow the day to days, bulletin points of what's going on in the national security realm.

And people like John Kelly, the former Chief of Staff in the Trump administration has said this could be catastrophic for national security that Biden should be getting those. So, a number of things that that they still can't do that they would be getting normally in a normal transition process.

We should also know that in addition to keeping COVID front and center and expect to hear a lot more about that this week as they take these meetings on and more, they're also going to be focusing in on the economy. And we expect to see and hear from the President-elect and the Vice President-elect tomorrow afternoon, Pam.

They're going to be giving remarks on the economy about building back better. That was their slogan during the campaign. Now, they've got to talk about what actionable items they're going to take now that they know they're headed to office. Pam?

BROWN: All right, Jessica Dean, thank you so much.

Let's talk about the fallout of this stalemate, I guess, you can say with the transition. Joining me now Dr. Celine Gounder, CNN Medical Host -- CNN Medical Analyst, host of the epidemic podcast and medical adviser to the Biden transition team. First, I want to talk about what concern, Dr. Gounder, raises for you that the President's medical adviser on COVID, who is not an epidemiologist, is attacking the Governor of Michigan for implementing COVID restrictions during a surge.

[22:10:06]

DR. CELINE GOUNDER, MEMBER, BIDEN-HARRIS TRANSITION COVID ADVISORY BOARD: Pam, just to clarify, I am no longer CNN Medical Analyst.

BROWN: Thank you.

GOUNDER: But I think --

BROWN: We'll fix that.

GOUNDER: I think on this, Dr. Atlas, and I can agree, which is that the American people must rise, we must rise to the occasion. In the absence of leadership is really in our hands, to work with our state and local officials, to do what we need to do in terms of masking. This is a cheap, effective intervention that does not interfere with the economy. And it's highly effective.

And I think you're seeing great leadership from governors like Governor Whitmer, who are really following the science and you'll notice that she's implementing restrictions that are very targeted. I think of this as a dimmer switch versus what we saw in the spring with draconian lockdowns, which I think of as a on and off light switch.

So, for example, in terms of schools, it's not a full school shutdown, they're really targeting the older students who are more likely to transmit, they are targeting the closure of indoor dining, but leaving outdoor dining and takeout open. They are closing up group classes at gyms, but they're leaving individual gym workouts open. So, they're really trying to be very judicious in what they're closing up.

BROWN: So, with the Biden administration encourage other states to adopt similar types of mitigation efforts?

GOUNDER: I think this is exactly what we're looking at doing. We're talking about let's be geographically targeted by zip code. Let's be -- let's follow the science now that we understand better. What are the settings where transmission is more likely to occur? What are the populations, the age groups that are more likely to contribute to transmission?

Now that we understand that, we can be a bit more nuanced in our restrictions. But I think moving forward, we really do need to dramatically scale up testing because that information is what allows us to be more targeted. When you don't know where the virus is, and why it's spreading, it's much harder to do that.

BROWN: So let's talk about the practical impacts of what we're seeing with the transition stalled, right. I mean, how is it impacting the fight against COVID with the Biden transition, not -- how have you guys been directly impacted? The White House this evening is pushing back against reports that you guys have been blocked, divine team has been blocked. So, tell us what it's been like from your view, and what the practical concern is from your experience? GOUNDER: Well, we really need to have a much better understanding of the details. So, for example, how much PPE, you know, the masks and the face shields and the ventilators and all of the other necessary equipment is available, where is it? You know, how much of it do we have, how many hospital beds, how many ventilators. Some of this information is publicly available, but not all of it and not in real time the way we need it and --

BROWN: And so you've asked for that and they're not giving it to you, just to be clear?

GOUNDER: We're not getting any information.

BROWN: OK. So, you've asked for -- you've asked for that specific information. And you're getting stonewalled essentially, correct?

GOUNDER: Essentially, we're being given what is publicly accessible information.

BROWN: All right. Dr. Celine Gounder, thank you so much for coming on really important conversation.

Well, as President Trump refuses to concede and leaves the transfer of power at a standstill, America's adversaries are watching.

Coming up, I'll speak with three people who have worked in the Trump administration, and what they think the President will do next. And we have lift-off, four astronauts are heading to the International Space Station on a SpaceX capsule.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:17:36]

BROWN: Well, President Trump's time in office is coming to an end whether he accepts it or not. But the implications of his refusal to concede could be long lasting. This week, Trump's former Chief of Staff retired Marine General John Kelly put it bluntly, saying, "The delay and transitioning is increasing national security and health crisis.

The downside could be catastrophic to our people regardless of who they voted for". John Kelly is part of a long line of former Trump administration Cabinet officials who have spoken out against the President's leadership and his character.

It's a remarkable break and precedent and it's not a move that anyone makes lightly. Tonight, you're going to hear from three of them. They are Trump administration insiders who know how the President thinks and operates because they were a critical part of our government.

There's Olivia Troye, former Homeland Security Adviser to Vice President Mike Pence, who was also part of the White House Coronavirus Task Force. She was part of key meetings with the President, Vice President and other top administration officials. She resigned in July, saying she was fed up with the President's botched response to the pandemic.

Also Elizabeth Neumann, former Assistant Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security for Counterterrorism. She's one of 150 former national security officials who co-signed a letter warning of risks in the Biden transition delay. And John Mitnick, also co-signed that letter. He is the former General Counsel for the Department of Homeland Security, all three backed Joe Biden for President.

Well, thank you all for joining me. First and foremost, I really appreciate you taking the time, it's important to hear your perspective. And John, I first want to go to you. What is the President's refusal to concede this election doing to an already deeply divided country in your view, not just saying he's not going to concede, but also claiming the election was stolen from him?

JOHN MITNICK, FORMER GENERAL COUNSEL, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Pamela, first of all, thank you very much for having me on. And the country is already extremely polarized and the amount of distrust and discord and hatred out there is just at an extreme and this is just exacerbating it. And at the same time, the President is totally undermining the basis of our democracy and the peaceful transfer of power which of course is the hallmark of our democracy.

So, this is just making a situation that's grown virtually intolerable over the last several years even worse, and just so in distrust in our entire system of government. And I think it's also unfortunately designed to sow distrust in the incoming Biden administration.

[22:20:11]

BROWN: And you have to wonder if America's adversaries are looking at this, thinking this is exactly what they wanted. But, Elizabeth, you're now seeing not just former officials speaking out, but current officials. Chris Krebs, who runs the cyber arm of the Department of Homeland Security, retweeted an elections expert calling on people to ignore, quote, wild and baseless claims, even if they're made by the President. His agency released a statement saying, "There is no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes or was in any way compromised".

As a former DHS official, what is the significance of a current official who was just involved in election security and integrity, directly rebuking the President on this issue?

ELIZABETH NEUMANN, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY AT THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Look, this was the most secure election that we've ever had. The great men and women at CISA where Chris Krebs is, in the intelligence community, in the military community, worked for the last four years to make sure that every vote was going to be protected, and that we could have confidence in the election system. So, what you're seeing out of DHS, out of CISA is a continuation of that mission that they took on four years ago, to ensure that the American people have the facts.

And I think what you're saying is, public servants committed to making sure that Americans have the truth. But as John just mentioned, we're living in a very polarized time where people are operating from different sets of facts. And it's not exactly clear that by having a federal agency come out and say this, that the sides that are supporting Trump would actually believe it. So it's the right thing to do. It's hard to see if that's going to have much of an effect.

BROWN: And Olivia, for your perspective, six days ago, the U.S. are past 10 million cases of COVID. Today, we've surpassed 11 million. I mean, that's the fastest this country has added 1 million cases since this pandemic began. You work closely with Vice President Pence on the White House Coronavirus Task Force, how might the fact that Trump is blocking the transition impact the spiraling health crisis?

OLIVIA TROYE, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISER TO VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENECE: I think it has a significant impact because they need to be understanding really what's going on behind the scenes, the data, and we need to be looking forward. Because today, we have the highest case numbers right now happening. But those numbers are going to continue to increase and people are going to continue to die. And it is so upsetting especially for me who's watching my hometown of El Paso. I'm here right now (INAUDIBLE), and watching the White House continuously play politics over lives again and again and again, is just so upsetting.

And they should just do the right thing and support the Biden transition and get the experts, the information, get them all talking to each other so we can unite and actually do the patriotic thing to protect our American citizens because this virus is real and it's spreading. And we're in a really bad situation.

BROWN: Yes, I mean, that's just the reality. You look at the numbers. It's just the numbers that tells you the truth, where we are with this virus.

And, John, I kind of hinted at this before we were talking but, you know, it's not just the fact that Trump is refusing to concede to Joe Biden, he's also denying him access to classified briefings. Since Monday, four senior defense officials have been fired or resigned, including Defense Secretary Mark Esper, how does this make the United States vulnerable to national security threats?

MITNICK: Pamela, it's an absolutely outrageous situation as we discussed or as has been discussed. It's the obligation and authority of the administrator of General Services to ascertain quote unquote, the identity of the apparent successful candidates for President and Vice President. And apparent doesn't require absolute certainty as far as the plain meaning of the word.

And it is outrageous that the Biden administration has their agency review team setup and they are being completely denied access to information, which is bringing the transition essentially to a standstill.

And that that information is absolutely critical for the incoming administration to do what they need to do. They need the information, they need the resources, the office space and the access to the President's daily briefings and the classified information. And without that, our national security is absolutely impaired.

The 911 commission acknowledged that the Bush administration started off at a disadvantage because of the delay and the start of their transition. So this is, of course, resulted from the Florida issue. But the bottom line is this panel, every minute that the Biden-Harris transition is delayed, creates further risk to our national security. And administrator Emily Murphy must ascertain that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris are the President-elect and Vice President-elect respectively immediately.

[22:25:02]

BROWN: Actually, I want to go to you, Olivia, on that because the White House is saying tonight that, look we've handed -- you know, everything's publicly available. They're asking about the distribution plan for the vaccines. Well, it's all publicly available. What is your reaction to that?

TROYE: I think that's ludicrous. Because what really needs to be happening right now is that the Biden team needs to be briefed on what worked, what didn't work in the past. And they also have experts there. Look, I was on the task force, I know numerous situations that should have been implemented that weren't. And so, to those other experts on task force setting, they need to be talking to them and briefing them on plans that were never implemented, because the President and his circle of influence walk them from happening. And that is just mind blowing to me.

BROWN: Yes. And we know, we just interviewed Celine Gounder. She's a doctor advising the Biden task force who said they've been asking questions about PPE and so forth, and they're just not getting the answers.

Elizabeth, as we know, the President has a habit of dismissing former administration officials, labeling them as part of the swamp in an effort to discredit them. As a former administration official, what do you have to say in the face of 72 plus million Americans voting for the President? I mean, this election was hardly a rebuke of him. And this was after several officials, like you have spoken out against him. What do you say to that?

NEUMANN: You know, it's certainly going to be the topic of conversation that many virtual Thanksgiving dinners I think. It's really hard to understand the perspectives of many that don't reside in the opposite set of -- the opposite sphere of facts, if you will. So when you live in a red state, or red County, you're mostly encountering people that are Republican. And so, it's really hard for you to personally understand a perspective that's different than yours, and vice versa.

If you live in a blue state, or blue county, you tend to think, how can anybody vote for him? And the fact of the matter is that we have a lot of different perspectives in this country. There's a really good study out there that indicates that it's only about 14 percent of the country that's actively involved in politics. So, that gives me some hope that we have some 85 percent of the country that's only occasionally engaged, and they're living real lives. And so that tells me that they're not so entrenched in those viewpoints that we can't get out and start to better understand and recreate civil discourse.

But it really has to go back to -- we have to fix this polarized media problem that we have right now, where we have two completely different echo chambers and two completely different sets of facts that we're operating off of. And that's why I think you have 72 million people voting for him because he created a narrative that was based on lies, but nobody ever injected facts enough for them to discover the lies. So, I think, hopefully, on the other side of this circus, maybe some of those voters not all, but maybe some will come to realize the truth.

But I think we have to do that carefully and gently because it's not as if the other side hasn't also had challenges of their own. So this is a very delicate place that we find ourselves in and I'm grateful that Joe Biden will be the President to try to lead us through that unification process.

BROWN: No, and I do think you raise an important point that people are in echo chambers with the news that they want to receive. They can choose what they want to read and take in and that is something certainly to be examined moving forward.

All right, Olivia Troye, Elizabeth Neumann, John Mitnick, thank you so much.

TROYE: Thank you.

BROWN: Well, America's coronavirus crisis is spiraling out of control crossing 11 million cases and more than 246,000 deaths.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He called my mom kiddo, he called us all kiddo. But he said, kiddo, I'm not doing good. And she said Dad, I'm not either. And he said, Trey (ph), I'm dying and she said Dad, I am too. And he said, then I'll look for you in heaven.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Coming up, a heartbreaking story of one Utah family hit hard by coronavirus and what they want others to know.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:33:08]

BROWN: Well, the state of Utah has hit record highs and new COVID-19 cases deaths and hospitalizations. The governor has issued a statewide mass mandate and limited household social gatherings. But for some families, those measures come a little too late.

CNN Correspondent Lucy Kafanov shares the devastating toll of this pandemic on one family in Salt Lake City.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GOV. GARY HERBERT, (R) UTAH: I'm declaring a new state of emergency to address hospital overcrowding.

LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The crisis leading Governor Gary Herbert to issue a two week state of emergency ordering all Utahns to mask up despite previously resisting a mandate banning residents from socializing with people from different households, ramping up testing across the state even deploying more National Guard to help with testing and contact tracing.

LINDSAY WOOTTON, LOST MOTHER, GRANDFATHER TO COVID-19: It's crazy to think that this lady right here, this is what she is. It's just memories and it's heartbreaking.

This is one of the last photos taken of them together.

KAFANOV: But Lindsey Wooten says those measures are too little too late. Her grandfather died of COVID-19 last month. Days later, the woman she calls her best friend, her mom, also lost her life to COVID.

Her father battled the disease for 46 days in the hospital, now home recovering and mourning the love of his life.

WOOTTON: The whole day was probably one of the harder days of my life.

KAFANOV: She recalls when doctors broke the news her mom wasn't going to survive. Moments later, she learned her grandfather was about to pass.

WOOTTON: We called my grandpa and I put him on speakerphone so he could talk to my mom. He called my mom kiddo. He called us out kiddo.

[22:35:01]

But he said, kiddo, I'm not doing good. And she said, Dad, I'm not either. And he said, Trey, I'm dying and she said, Dad, I am too. And he said, then I'll look for you and heaven.

KAFANOV: She wants others to learn from her family's tragedy.

WOOTTON: It's frustrating that people brush it off, that it is just the flu. Because for some people, it's not. For some people, it costs their life. It took my mom and that's irreplaceable.

My kids don't get their grandma. My mom will never see my kids get married.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAFANOV: Now, dozens of people in Lindsay's family were affected by COVID. So much so that part of her mom's funeral had to be broadcast by zoom, so they could be a part of it too. Her story is unfortunately a microcosm of what's happening to families across the state of Utah as well as across the country.

Her message, this isn't political. If something as simple as wearing a mask could save even one life, please do so.

Lucy Kafanov, CNN, Salt Lake City, Utah.

BROWN: What a heartbreaking and important story that was Thank you, Lucy.

Well, in 11 days America celebrates Thanksgiving and I want to take -- I want you to take a look at these pictures right here. Lines and lines of cars at the North Texas Food Bank yesterday. An estimated 25,000 people hungry and in need of help receiving 600,000 pounds of food.

This is the richest nation in the world. And yet Americans as you see right here in this video, they are lining up by the thousands for their next meal. And this comes as members of Congress on both sides of the aisle are playing politics not agreeing to relief for millions of Americans suffering right now because of this pandemic.

Well, before you give things this year, think about giving to another family in need. You can find your local food bank at feedingamerica.org. And if your family needs help visit cnn.com/impact to learn more.

Well, as President Trump digs in at the White House, President Obama has a little advice for his successor, if you want to have a legacy of putting the country first then.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:41:06]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The President doesn't like to lose and never admits loss.

I'm more troubled by the fact that other Republican officials who clearly know better are going along with this, are humoring him in this fashion. It is one more step in delegitimizing not just the incoming Biden administration, but democracy generally. And that's a dangerous path.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: As I'm sure you likely know, that was former President Obama talking, talking about the stall transition of power in Washington.

Well, the race was called a week ago for President-elect Biden, but President Trump is still refusing to concede.

Joining me now Brian Stelter, CNN Chief Media Correspondent and host of "Reliable Sources."

Great to see you, Brian.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: You too. BROWN: The President's insistence that the election was stolen, brought thousands of his supporters to Washington D.C., even as there is no evidence to back up claims that fraud costs Trump the election, but it shows his base is still very much energized. They're believing this narrative. And they believe him even though Biden is the President-elect.

In his interview, President Obama seems to imply the media may be to blame for the fierce partisanship, take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: The media landscape has changed. And as a consequence, voters' perceptions have changed. So that I think Democratic and Republican voters have become much more partisan.

You already saw some of these trends taking place early in my presidency, but I do think they've kept on getting worse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So he was basically summing up that whether you're on the right or left are in these echo chambers of news misinformation. Right now we've spoken about this right wing supporters are leaving Twitter for Parler switching the channel from Fox News to Newsmax.

STELTER: Yes.

BROWN: What do you think is driving the changes we're seeing in the media landscape?

STELTER: Yes, this is the giant move from three channels to thousands of channels. And in every interview, Obama's giving about his new book, he is talking about these changes in the media ecosystem that are making it harder, he says, to govern and to have a functioning democracy.

I don't think anybody would want to turn back the clock 50 years and go back to a time before the internet, before mobile phones, at least most people wouldn't want to turn back the clock. But the consequence of this technology is it everybody's a member of the media, and these incendiary platforms with a hyper partisan content and lies and smears, they are able to get major traction.

Obama talks about this in the interviews that are going to be come out in the next few days. He is very critical of this disinformation world that now exists. But like everybody else, Pamela, he doesn't have any easy answers. He can identify the problems, and he's right about the problems. But there are no easy solutions to these problems.

BROWN: There weren't. I mean, we're probably going to see more apps like Parler popping up where you go. And if you're a conservative, that's a popular app among conservatives, and you really don't have anything challenging the view. Or on Facebook and Twitter we're now seeing more of an effort to say, you know, this is, inaccurate, or here's more information on election, integrity and so forth. But you're seeing these other applications pop up.

Also, President Obama discussed how different presidents bring different temperaments to office. And he acknowledged the criticism that he was too cautious and tempered at times. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Every president brings a certain temperament to office. I think, part of the reason I got elected was because I sent a message that fundamentally I believe the American people are good and decent, and that politics doesn't have to be some cage match in which everybody is going at each other's throats and that we can agree without being disagreeable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:45:03]

BROWN: So he talks about cage match. I'm curious what you think. Do you think the media kind of spurs that on, this idea that both sides have to be at each other's throats?

STELTER: Well, social media platforms certainly are anti-social in many ways, because they encourage that cage match algorithms, fuel, this idea that the people are each other's throats. When in fact, I think, their local level in the real world, our politics is actually not as broken as it appears nationally, but because everything has been nationalized, including, you know, local races, it's become more and more poisonous.

And in fact, Obama says he doesn't know if he would have received the same treatment now than he did 12 years ago when he was running in the primaries for the Democratic nomination for president.

I think that's why this book is so important, Pamela, a promised land comes out on Tuesday. It's going to be the biggest book of the year, 3 million copies already printed. And I hope that Obama can draw some people in and think about what our politics can be, not what they are today, but what our politics in America can be. This book may be inspirational for that reason.

BROWN: All right. Brian Stelter, thank you so much.

STELTER: Thanks.

BROWN: Well, one small step for SpaceX is one major step for the next generation of spaceflight. I'm going to speak to a former commander of the International Space Station about today's launch, up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:50:11]

BROWN: Well, just over three hours ago former astronauts aboard a SpaceX rocket made history.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Five, four, three, two one, zero --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And resilience rises. Not even gravity contains humanity when we explore as one for all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Well, they lifted off from the Kennedy Space Center and Florida at 7:27pm and they are now on their way to the International Space Station. Three American NASA astronauts and one Japanese astronaut are all traveling aboard the Crew Dragon spacecraft named Resilience. And they are part of the first fully operational mission on the space station where they will spend the next six months.

Joining me now to better understand the importance of the space mission is former Astronaut and retired Air Force Colonel Terry Virts.

Colonel Virts, thank you for coming on. Much appreciate it. Can't wait to hear your perspective on all of this.

Your career at NASA spans 16 years, you spent 213 days in space, conducted three spacewalks, piloted a space shuttle and were the commander of the International Space Station. You're also the author of "How to Astronaut; An Insider's Guide to Leaving Planet Earth." So I can't think of a better person to ask, why is this launch today so important and historic?

COL. TERRY VIRTS (RET.), FORMER NASA ASTRONAUT: Well, it's a big deal for NASA, because this commercial crew program that we've had for the last 10 years basically is finally into the operational phase. It was a test program.

We had that mission a few months ago that a lot of people followed. But now we're out of the test phase. And this is a routine launch to the space station, which is a big deal.

BROWN: So, but, I mean, people hear about, you know, launches to the space -- to the International Space Station, like why, why is this such a big deal?

VIRTS: Well, you need to have some way to get people to and from the station. And for the last 20 years of space station Ops, it's only been the Russian Soyuz, which has been great. They've been a great partner. That's how we've been -- that's how I went to the station on my last flight. But this gives NASA some redundancy. It's also something that's launching from America, which is important also.

BROWN: All right, wanted to make sure we hit on all that.

So you flew to the International Space Station aboard and aging Russian rocket, which cost $90 million per seat. You mentioned the rocket right now, Mike Hopkins, Victor Glover, Shannon Walker and Soichi Noguchi are aboard the state of the art Crew Dragon spaceship, how important is the step forward for NASA's continued space research? VIRTS: Well, like I said, if you can't get people to and from the station, you know, you can't have a space station. So, the ability to have a crew rotational rocket is necessary. And I think the -- more than that, there's SpaceX, there's also Boeing, which will be launching next year on their capsule. And it just gives the -- it gives the redundancy to get people up and down, which is something that you need.

The real mission isn't the launch. Kind of in the '60s, that was the big thing. Everybody focused on the launch.

Launching people to it from the station is just one of the logistical cogs in this giant wheel of a way to get people there. So they can do the mission which is science when they get there.

BROWN: Right. That's really interesting because you're right, we're also focused on this launch, we're glued to the T.V. watching this video.

VIRTS: Right.

BROWN: And you see in the video the rockets fully automated but the astronauts are wearing gloves that allowed them to use touchscreens. I just wondering as you watch this play out, how different is this experience compared to your trips into space?

VIRTS: It's very different. When I was on the space shuttle I was the pilot and I actually flew the shuttle in space, you know, with a control stick and maneuver the spaceship. And then when it was back in the air coming down for landing, I flew it like an airplane.

And so that's not at all what happens that you're basically along for the ride, SpaceX is 100 percent automated. And it's like an iPad. It's, you know, I want to go left and you push the left button and the spaceship maneuvers.

They shouldn't have to do that manually. But if you do, you control it with an iPad, which is pretty cool. It's kind of like the movie "2001," if you remember that, that were -- you just sat there and the robot took you to the space station. That's what's happening today.

BROWN: So, all right, let's talk about once they arrive at their destination, what are some of the more unusual things that these astronauts will have to adjust to while they're on the space station?

VIRTS: Well, three of them have flown before, but I - Glover, this is his first flight.

And one of the things that's really disorienting when you're in the capsule, it's really small. You know, there's a little bit of room you can move around but it's not that big of a volume. It's like you're in a small closet or something like that.

[22:55:00]

And then when you open the hatch, you're in this giant 747. And that can be disorienting. Some people have really had a hard time just like getting dizzy, plus, you're floating for the first time.

On my first mission I took two days, I had the worst headache I've ever had my life. Taken a lot of ibuprofen. And then it was like a light switch went on, my brain figured out what I was doing to it.

BROWN: What is going on.

VIRTS: It figured out zero G. when I went back, four years later, five years later, it remembered. And so, on my second flight, I didn't have any trouble at all. It was immediately OK.

So there's something in your brain. There's some neurons to get rewired that figure out weightlessness, but it takes a few days. Everybody has some type of headache, or it's not a lot of fun the first couple days.

BROWN: That's actually fascinating, though, that you went back and you were totally fine, because your brain remembered.

All right, Colonel Terry Virts --

VIRTS: I was wondering that. Yes.

BROWN: I mean, that's just anecdotally what your experience was. But I find that I find that really interesting.

All right, Terry Virts, thank you so much for coming on sharing your fascinating perspective. Given all the experience you have really interesting to hear what you had to say about this.

VIRTS: Yes, thanks for having me. And thanks for talking about "How to Astronauts," a fun book.

BROWN: Of course.

All right. Coming up, President Trump admits Biden won the election and spins more conspiracy theories about why he lost from his social media safe space.

I'll speak to a former conspiracy theorist about the misinformation virus that's taken root.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And top of the hour now I'm Pamela Brown in Washington.