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Thirteen Days Of 100,000-Plus COVID-19 Cases In U.S.; WH Denies Blocking Biden Team From Vaccine Distribution Plan; Biden Transition Team To Meet With Pfizer, Drug Companies; Texas Surpasses One Million Cases, Hospitals Overwhelmed; Former Trump Officials On The Damage He's Doing To America; Trump Admits Biden Won, Refuses To Concede, Blames Loss On String Of Conspiracy. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired November 15, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:00:05]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: And top of the hour now, I'm Pamela Brown in Washington and you're watching a special edition of CNN NEWSROOM. Great to have you along with us.

Thirteen days, 13 consecutive days of 100,000 plus new cases. But the White House tonight is arguing against science and one advisor had a shocking tweet that Michigan should quote rise up against its governor and her new COVID restrictions.

Complicit the former President Barack Obama says Republicans are leading the country down a dangerous path by letting the current president play out his 2020 charade.

And like a spirit in the night SpaceX lifts off for a history making trip and to borrow from Mission Control. One heck of a ride.

A busy hour ahead on the Sunday, but first a new argument tonight and the President's preferred medical advisor rebelled against restrictions designed to save lives. The U.S. just crossed the 11 million case threshold cases are trending the wrong way and 45 of 50 states. This country is staring down a dire moment right now as we speak. Experts say more action is required to slow the spread, not less.

That is exactly what Michigan is doing tonight, putting more mitigation efforts in place. But the White House as it has for months, finds itself arguing against mitigation, against science, quote, rise up is what Dr. Scott Atlas urges Michigan residents to do to define new measures put in place by Governor Gretchen Whitmer.

You may recall Whitmer was a frequent target of the President's campaign trail rhetoric and she was an actual target of a domestic terror plot by an anti-government group to kidnap and assassinate her for COVID restrictions she had put in place earlier this year.

Well, Dr. Atlas insists in a follow up tweet that he would never advocate violence. With more tonight, with a simple message. She won't be intimidated.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D-MI): Well, we know that the White House likes to single us out here in Michigan me out in particular, I'm not going to be bullied into not following reputable scientists and medical professionals. I listened to people that actually have studied and are well respected worldwide on these issues, not the individual that is doing the President's bidding on this one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Well, the Biden agenda starts with the coronavirus fight both the science and the economics of recovery. And this week, the Biden transition team plans a meeting with drug maker Pfizer, and then tomorrow, a big economic speech on how the Biden team plans to put the pandemic economy back together.

Let's go straight to CNN's Jessica Dean in Wilmington, Delaware a consequential week ahead for Team Biden Jessica.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. Pam. You mentioned they're going to start with the economy tomorrow but coronavirus of course, staying front and center for them as their very top priority really seeing the economy attached to that as well and national security all things. We're expecting to hear from the Biden transition team as we set off on this new week.

We did get confirmation earlier today from incoming Chief of Staff Ron Klain, he was interviewed and he did confirm that his team will be meeting with various drug makers, including Pfizer on a potential vaccine distribution plan. They're continuing to do this sort of outreach, including kind of we're learning back channeling to local officials and to others in the medical community, because they also can't get any access to the federal officials who are managing this.

So they're doing these other things that they can do, but because the General Services Administration, that federal office that signs off on the formal transition process has not done that so far. That means that the Biden transition team still does not have access to federal agencies, still does not have access to the White House Coronavirus Task Force. So they are doing what they can, meeting with drugmakers and more. Here's Ron Klain from earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RON KLAIN, INCOMING WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: We're going to have meetings between our top scientific advisors and the officials of these drug companies not just Pfizer, but their other promising vaccines as well. We're going to start those consultations this week.

Well, you know, it's great to have a vaccine, but vaccines don't save lives. vaccinations save lives. And that means you got to get that vaccine into people's arms all over this country. It's a giant logistical project.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: And Klain really making the point there that getting the vaccine is of course an incredible undertaking, but getting it to all Americans is also going to be a giant undertaking. Remember, it could be needed to be stored at a certain temperature. There could be multiple doses, there all of these things they're having to take into consideration.

And the people at the federal level who are playing for this are not allowed to talk to the Biden transition team right now and vice versa. So it's hard to coordinate what they're hoping will be a seamless transition. It's hard enough to make that transition then add in a pandemic and something as massive as a vaccine distribution plan. And you can see what they're up against.

[23:05:18]

This slowdown, this inability to get any sort of sign off on -- from the GSA on this transition process is also impacting national security. We know that Biden is not getting those presidential daily briefings which run down the daily points on national intelligence, that keep them abreast of what's going on day to day within that realm. Typically, by now the president-elect would be getting that and someone like John Kelly, even coming out the former chief of staff to the Trump administration to President Trump saying this could be catastrophic for national security for this transition.

So Pam, again, it's important to note that here we are on Sunday going into this next week, the Biden transition team still doesn't have formal access. This is outside the norms. This is not typical when we're in the situation. So we'll see what Monday brings.

We do expect to see the president-elect and vice president-elect tomorrow when they give those remarks on the economy and building back better. Of course, that was their campaign plan. We'll see what they have in store for action now that they know they'll be taking office January 20th. Pam.

BROWN: We shall see. Jessica Dean, thank you for laying it all out for us. We appreciate it.

Well, perhaps it was a Freudian slip from the president followed by a disinformation deluge. In a morning tweet, the President started by saying Joe Biden won the election. But the President spent the rest of the day peddling election conspiracy theories and he has still not formally started the transition as Jessica just laid out there. So what does all of that mean?

Joining me now, CNN senior political analyst and chief Washington correspondent for Politico, Ryan Lizza and CNN historian Doug Brinkley. Great to see you both, lots of discuss. Ryan, first to you. I just quickly want to take a step back because the President is still trying to fight this and he has now put Rudy Giuliani in charge of his legal matters. Does that tell you this is more about PR than an actual legal battle at this point? RYAN LIZZA, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, it is completely about PR. And if you paid close attention to the legal battles, the last few days have been pretty dismal for the Trump campaign, they've suffered setback after setback in a number of lawsuits. There is not a single lawsuit that I'm familiar with that or other, you know, outside of the courtroom, recount or anything else that will overturn or change the results of a single state.

And, you know, Joe Biden at 306 electoral votes, you know, that's 36 more than he needs to get to 270. And there's just, this is just an exercise in futility. For the for the Trump people, there's no conceivable way that any states are going to change the results that have already been projected.

So yes, to answer your question, it is about PR. And I guess the question is, to what end? Why, why --

BROWN: Right, to what end?

LIZZA: In Washington this weekend, you know, we saw these protests and, you know, late last night, they devolved into, you know, some skirmishes and some violence, the President has been celebrating those, encouraging them. What's going to happen next weekend, and the weekend after that, as we get, you know, we have, you know, two months till the inaugural and I don't see Trump or his people backing down, or grappling with reality.

And I think we're on a bit of a knife's edge in terms of which way this goes, I think it could be nothing and, you know, he'll leave or if what happened in Washington this weekend becomes something that happens around the country with presidential support. I think that's, you know, very curious to hear what Doug thinks about this. I think that's a little worrisome.

BROWN: It absolutely is worrisome. Doug, what do you think about it?

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: I am worried about it. I think President Trump's of spewing out conspiracy theories right and left. I'm reminded of April 19th 1995, when we had the Oklahoma City bombing, meaning when you ratchet up this sort of hateful behavior, saying that the 2020 election was rigged to fraud. I'm the real winner. And you're going to get groups militia groups, so people that are just going to get riled up because they have their Trump deranged. And the President seems to be --

BROWN: And it's not just Trump supporters to be clear getting riled up. Right. I just want to be clear on that. It's not just the Trump supporters.

[23:10:00]

BRINKLEY: No, it's just it's creating a kind of civil unrest for no reason we should be celebrating the fact that we did this really great election in 2020. But it's just a count till January 20th. Everything Donald Trump does is sort of a stunt. But it could cost lives and certainly his lack of COVID-19 responses cost lives. And now we're seeing the tension between the State of Michigan versus the Trump White House, this could get replicated as we go into Thanksgiving and Christmas. And the numbers of COVID-19 are going upwards.

BROWN: I mean, that's what we're seeing. It's just remarkable if we take a step back and think, OK, it's been eight days since the race was called for Joe Biden. And the President is still tweeting disinformation about the election, saying it was stolen from him. And it's just remarkable in the transition hasn't even been able to start for Joe Biden. I mean, that's really the question here. What does this mean, for the country? How much of a danger is this for the country? And how complicit our fellow Republicans, allies of the president who aren't speaking out about this?

That's for you Doug.

(CROSSTALK)

BRINKLEY: OK. You know, I think that Donald Trump is obviously plotting his ex-presidency right now. And it very well may be at Mar- a-Lago next to Rush Limbaugh, and maybe he'll take over the Rush Limbaugh radio world, or maybe his friends at Newsmax, who's located in Palm Beach will work as a new network with Donald Trump. But this is not an ex-president that's going to raise money for a library and write a memoir, only.

He sees himself as a revolutionary force of nature. He's trying to convince people this was rigged, the more people protesting in the streets, the happier he is. And so he's creating what would be normally a constitutional crisis right now. But after four years of Trumpism people just say his tweets are blather we hardly even carry them on CNN, it's because his megaphone is vile, it's filled with conspiracy theories, and a lot of people just are watching NFL football today and not watching Trump's tweeting antics.

BROWN: Well, and look, you're right, there's Trump's tweeting antics. But now, Ryan, as we were just talking about, and I really want to hear what you have to say about this. Republican allies of the President on Capitol Hill, are, you know, see any behind him?

I mean, President Barack Obama tonight said that Republicans are complicit and allowing the president to continue to deny the clear results of the election that Joe Biden won. What at this point, Ryan will push Republicans to abandon this alternate reality?

LIZZA: Well, this is the dynamic at play here that I think a lot of people are not talking about is Georgia. The reason that a lot of Republicans on Capitol Hill are not stepping forward and declaring the Trump era over as some of them might, in the current circumstances, is because they want to win those two Senate seats in Georgia.

And they fear angering the President when more importantly, angering his supporters by looking like they're selling Trump out. And that playing in to a backlash against the Republican candidates in Georgia. And I think that is an issue that's going to get a lot more attention over the over the next couple of weeks. But that is what some of the cowardice among Republicans, especially among Republican senators is about. And you know, he might say that's ridiculous. This is, you know, the President is fomenting protests in the streets based on a lie that he won the election or that it was rigged. How could Republicans think, oh, we can't call that out, because we need those two Senate seats? But I think that's like the basic dynamic, right, we're seeing the final, you know, the final Trump era clash between the silent Republicans and Trumpism.

BROWN: Right.

LIZZA: Yes.

BROWN: And I know for my reporting, the President has lashed out at GOP allies early on when he felt like they weren't coming to his defense enough, and he has dangled that the Georgia special elections out there because he knows Republicans want -- need his support. But, I mean, this is the kind of politics that people hate, right? Like these republicans who are staying silent are literally putting their party in themselves before the country in that -- and what you just laid out there, and there's really just no excuse for it.

All right, Ryan Lizza Douglas Brinkley, thank you so much. We're going to see you again a little later in the hour.

BRINKLEY: OK.

BROWN: And still to come. Texas has surpassed 1 million COVID-19 cases and hospitals are on the brink of capacity. The president of the Texas College of Emergency Physicians joins us on what he has seen inside these hospitals.

[23:15:01]

And as I mentioned a moment ago, former President Obama is offering President Trump advice on his term -- as his term comes to an end. Put the country first. We hear from the former president coming up.

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BROWN: Well health experts say the entire country as a hotspot of coronavirus infection, the entire country. This comes as the country surpassed 11 million cases today. At least 45 states have reported more new cases this past week compared to the previous week. Hospitals are at the worst point ever in this pandemic. Health experts say if hospitals get overwhelmed, state officials might order some places to shut down again. Some states have already started issuing drastic restrictions to curb the spread.

And we are seeing a staggering surge in coronavirus cases and hospitalizations in Texas. Last week, Dallas County hit a new daily hive infections recording more than 1,400 cases. Health experts are predicting the Dallas County will set more records in the days leading up to Thanksgiving. Hospitals are bracing for a new wave of patients and funeral homes are preparing extra refrigerated storage space. Just to put it in perspective where we are right now in this crisis. Joining me now is Dr. Robert Hancock. He is the president of the Texas College of Emergency Physicians and he practices in Dallas Fort Worth, Oklahoma, and Amarillo. Thank you for coming on.

[23:20:05]

What are you seeing inside hospitals right now?

ROBERT HANCOCK, EMERGENCY MEDICINE SPECIALIST: So currently, what we're seeing is this dramatic increase in hospitalizations. As we get that, and more patients get admitted to the hospital, the first thing you start to see is ICU bed capacity decrease. And that's really the critical part here, once the ICU beds and the facility are gone, there's nowhere to put these patients.

And historically, during these kind of issues, we would just transfer them to another facility that had ICU beds. Well, we're now at a point where nobody has ICU beds. And a lot of places don't have inpatient beds period. So you're kind of stuck with whatever these patients are a lot of them being COVID patients, among other things in the NICU.

And they wind up staying in the emergency department for days on end sometimes. And that obviously stresses the system, if there's nowhere for him to go, and more patients are coming in, then we're kind of stuck.

And now, I'm having to function is both a critical care doctor and an ER doctor and my ER nurses are having two functions, both ER nurses and ICU nurses. And it gets overwhelming pretty quick, especially for the nursing staff who are having to manage, you know, often six to eight patients, a lot of them very sick.

BROWN: So, clearly there isn't enough staff to handle this influx, this surge that we're seeing, we're eight months into this pandemic. Why not? Like why are hospitals at this point in dealing with this pandemic still, like having running out of beds not having enough staff, I mean, it's just horrible what you just laid out there?

HANCOCK: Well, there are a lot of factors to that. Part of it is that there's this limited space period, there's only so many beds you can have. Unfortunately, during the previous shutdown, a lot of hospitals had to lay off staff because volumes dropped so low, there weren't any elective cases, other things.

And I think everybody is trying to help staff at this point, create new beds, create new bed capacity. And I think that's happening now in real time. The problem is, if you're creating more capacity, but the number of patients you're bringing in, is still exceeding that capacity, then you get a few new beds for a few days, and then those are full.

And so, it really creates an issue. And the big thing people have to understand about COVID is when these patients go to the ICU, they're often there for 10 days plus. And typically that doesn't happen. ICU patients with other conditions. Usually there are two to three days. So, when he has my occupying that bed so long, it just yes, it doesn't take long when you keep adding more patients, and there's nowhere for him to go.

BROWN: Yes, I think that's a really important point. And now we're hearing some health experts say that hospitals may have to ration care. What does that even look like? What does that mean? Some people will not receive care at all. What does that mean?

HANCOCK: Well, that's the most stressful thing for myself and for all emergency physicians is when this happens, and the system gets overwhelmed, and you have all these critical care patients that take up a lot of time.

And now my time is split between all these admitted patients plus what I'm taking care of in the emergency department plus new patients, you know, the concern is, are we going from a situation where I'm able to provide optimal care, which is what we all want, that's what we all trained to do, to just trying to make sure we're providing adequate care, as that happens, and that's, that stresses all of us and it stresses all the nurses and other staff, because none of us want to see that. We want to give the best care to every patient. And as this gets more and more overwhelming, you know, we have to kind of redefine that.

BROWN: I cannot imagine having to make those decisions day in, day out like you have had to and your staff. It's just remarkable, what you have to do on the front lines and the difficult decisions you have to make.

And when you look back to where this started, and where we are now, how would you classify where we are in this pandemic right now? I mean, is it is it a five-alarm fire right now? Where are we?

HANCOCK: I would say we're getting really close to that level. There's still some capacity left, especially in some of the bigger cities with very robust health care systems. As time goes on, we're going to have to get more creative and look at other places to put patients honestly, and that's when we're really going to be you know, at the worst.

What we're seeing right now is I believe the worst we've seen, and I believe we're only at the first of it. I think it's going to get far worse as we get through the holidays. I think we're we were looking for a pretty long haul for the next three months or so. We're going to have to make some tough decisions, we're going to have to get creative.

[23:25:04]

Fortunately for emergency physicians, we're really good at getting creative and making things work. So we're going to all work together and do the best we can.

BROWN: I mean, you think about OK, it could get worse and that you're laid out. You guys are struggling to find beds and you don't have enough staff and I just, I have so much respect for you and the other medical professionals again, who are dealing with this.

Dr. Robert Hancock, thank you so much for all of your work.

HANCOCK: Thank you very much.

BROWN: And still to come. What is it like to be on the inside of the Trump administration? One former White House Coronavirus Task Force member says it's upsetting to watch her former colleagues play politics.

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BROWN: Last hour, three former Trump officials talk to us about President Trump and his refusal to concede the election to Joe Biden. Each of them played a key role in our government. And they have unique insights into how the President thinks and operates. They deliver insights on what long term impacts this could have on the country.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN (on-camera): Olivia (ph) for your perspective six days ago, the U.S. are past 10 million cases of COVID. Today we've surpassed 11 million. I mean that's the fastest this country has added 1 million cases since this pandemic began. You work closely with Vice President Pence on the White House Coronavirus Task Force. How might the facts The Trump is blocking the transition impact that the spiraling health crisis.

[23:30:06]

OLIVIA TROYE, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISER TO VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: I think it has a significant impact because they need to be understanding really what's going on behind the scenes, the data, and we need to be looking forward. Because today, we have the highest case numbers right now happening. But those numbers are going to continue to increase and people are going to continue to die.

And it is so upsetting, especially for me who's watching my hometown of El Paso. I'm here right now. It's gotten here. And watching the White House continuously play politics over lives again, and again, and again, is just so upsetting. And they should just do the right thing and support the Biden transition.

And get the experts the information, get them all talking to each other so we can unite and actually do the patriotic thing to protect our American citizens because this virus is real, and it's spreading, and we are in a really bad situation.

BROWN: Yes, I mean, that's just the reality. You look at the numbers. It's just the numbers. That tells you the truth, where we are with this virus.

And John, I kind of hinted at this before we were talking. But you know, it's not just the fact that Trump is refusing to concede to Joe Biden, he's also denying him access to classified briefings.

Since Monday four senior defense officials have been fired or resigned, including Defense Secretary Mark Esper, how does this make the United States vulnerable to national security threats?

JOHN MITNICK, FORMER GENERAL COUNSEL, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Pamela, it's an absolutely outrageous situation of as we discussed or as has been discussed. It's the obligation and authority of the administrator of General Services to ascertain, "the identity" of the apparent successful candidates for president and vice president.

And apparent doesn't require absolute certainty, as far as the plain meaning of the word. And it is outrageous that the Biden administration has their agency review team setup and they are being completely denied access information, which is put which is bringing the transition essentially to a standstill.

And that that information is absolutely critical for the incoming administration to do what they need to do. They need the information, need the resources, the office space, and the access to the President's daily briefings and declassified information. And without that, our national security is absolutely impaired.

The 9/11 commission acknowledged that the Bush administration started off at a disadvantage because of the delay and the start of their transitions for this course resulted from the Florida issue.

But the bottom line is this, Pamela, every minute that the Biden- Harris transition is delayed creates further risk to our national security. And Administrator Emily Murphy must ascertain that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, are the president-elect and vice-president elect respectively immediately.

BROWN: Actually, I want to go to you, Olivia, on that, because the White House is saying tonight that look, we've handed, you know, everything's publicly available. They're asking about the distribution plan for the vaccines, well, it's all publicly available. What is your reaction to that?

TROYE: I think that's ludicrous. Because what really needs to be happening right now is that the Biden team needs to be briefed on what worked, what didn't work in the past. And they also have experts there.

Look, I was on the taskforce, I know numerous situations that should have been implemented that weren't. And so to those other experts on the task force. And they need to be talking to them and briefing them on plans that were never implemented because the President and his circle of influence blocked them from happening. And that is just mind blowing to me.

BROWN: Yes. I mean - And coming up, former President Obama is opening up about his final days in the White House, the recent election and advice he would give to President Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When your time is up, then it is your job to put the country first and think beyond your own ego. (END VIDEO CLIP)

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[23:37:41]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: A president is a public servant. They are temporary occupants of the office by design. And when your time is up, then it is your job to put the country first and think beyond your own ego and your own interests and your own disappointments.

My advice to President Trump is if you want at this late stage in the game to be remembered as somebody who put country first, it's time for you to do the same thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Well, President Obama is weighing in on the uncertainty cloud in Washington. As you heard there, President Trump has yet to concede and more importantly, he is holding up the transition.

Let's bring back in CNN Presidential Historian Douglas Brinkley, good to see you again.

So, some argue President Trump's political rise came with his spread at the birtherism conspiracy about Obama. Tonight, the former president said the Trump campaign election fraud allegations are an attempt to delegitimize the Biden presidency and is threatening democracy. Just put it in perspective, how damaging is this to democracy? Why should everyone at home watching right now care about what's playing out?

BRINKLEY: Because our great export in the United States are free and fair elections. So we do them globally. We often are the country monitoring elections.

In here we have after all -- all we had to do to fix 2016 with Russian interference, our country pulled together, states did well. We have historic record turnout. Joe Biden won the biggest presidential election popular vote in U.S. history. And Donald Trump's playing a sore loser, unable to be showed the generosity of spirit to admit that he came up short in the end. So he's -- that he's behaving quite selfishly.

And in his memoir, and I got a chance incidentally, Pam, to read all of a promised land. I had signed a nondisclosure agreement, but now we can talk about it and it's amazing at the end of the book when Obama takes on birtherism and what that means to him, the belittling of our first African American president.

[23:40:04]

And here it is. He started at birtherism. And he's going out of spewing to these conspiracy theories and making our democracy weaker not stronger by being unable to accept the -- a normal transition.

BROWN: And the irony of that is a black woman is now going to be the vice president with Joe Biden.

So let's look a little bit deeper into what's at play here. I last check, "The Washington Post" says the President has made false or misleading claims more than 22,000 times since taking office. Tonight, President Obama talked about how blatant dishonesty has polluted politics.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: What we've seen is what some people call truth decay, something that's been accelerated by outgoing President Trump, this sense that not only do we not have to tell the truth, but the truth doesn't even matter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: I mean, it is very true that it seems as though people increasingly don't care about the truth. I mean, how did the political parties find common ground when truthfulness seems to be a liability?

BRINKLEY: Well that's, you know, we had the bipartisan spirit. I'm writing on the 1960s and '70s now. And in the Senate, you make your career as being a senator. But we've had the, you know, and standing up for things, but that's gone right now. We're in the middle of cultural and political warfare.

And what President Obama was bemoaning on 60 Minutes, but also in his new book, is how a balkanized media is having people going in into tribes, and we have no sense of what it means to be united as Americans.

We do pulled together in recent years when 9/11 happened for a few weeks. And, you know, there are these moments where we all pull together, but the amount of hatred between the right and the left in this country right now is -- it's epic and it's disturbing. And President Trump's says it really was born out of the beginnings of cable television, and then moving into, you know, the social media environment that were in.

BROWN: Yes, echo chambers. Well, I can, certainly say, you know, we did see the country pull together after 9/11. But we have not seen the country pull together during this pandemic.

I mean, on our screen right here, it shows you more than 11 million cases, their mass squaring has been politicized, even though doctors say if you were a mass, you could save so many lives.

President Obama also described what it was like to leave after eight years in the nation's top job. Let's take a listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: On that last day, the emotions really focus on the team that you've been working on. And it's very rare outside of maybe wartime where you get a collection of people working together in a sustained way under that kind of pressure and stress. And so there's a melancholy to it.

There was also though, and I write about this, a satisfaction in knowing that I had finished the job, I had run my stretch of the race. And I could say unequivocally, despite regrets and disappointments about some things not getting done, the country was better off when I left than when I got there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: What do you think about that?

BRINKLEY: Well, I think the country was better off once Obama left. I mean, after all, we forget what that great recession was like and how, you know, how bad the economy was. And you had Obama bailout General Motors start an economic stimulus.

And then there are in the book, there's the story of Osama bin Laden, who we have the great manhunt for. And then you have operation Neptune spear when Admiral McRaven and the Navy SEALs go in and get the number one outlaw of the world and that's how they Obama book ends.

But it's sad because, you know, we saw -- here was -- Barack Obama left, Donald Trump came in gave a kind of crazy American Carnage inaugural, and then started saying that his crowds, inaugural crowd was bigger than Barack Obama's, which it wasn't. And ever since that it's been four years of just Donald Trump trying to erase any touch, anything Obama did that Trump's trying to do away with. So it's kind of ironic.

Trump's loss, Biden's in, that's Obama's vice President. Barack Obama has just released what will be the number one book maybe of all time. This is - It's going to go like Michelle Obama's memoir date. It's going to be unbelievable.

[23:45:01]

And so there's like a triumph of Biden and Obama and Kamala Harris and kind of the American way. But Donald Trump won't get out of the way. And that's what's sort of sad.

COVID should have been an opportunity for our country to pull together. Instead now we're more divided than ever. And it's sad that you have a president who made his symbol not wearing a mask as he ran for re-election and the winner was the mask wearing Joe Biden.

BROWN: Yes, that is a fact.

Douglas Brinkley, thank you so much.

BRINKLEY: Thank you.

BROWN: Coming up, a false reality spilling out into the streets of Washington. Thousands of the President's supporters embracing claims of a stolen election.

Our next guest says she understands why conspiracy thinking is incredibly compelling because she was once a conspiracy theorist herself. You'll want to hear her story up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: So Washington was the site of a large rally for Trump supporters on Saturday, thousands took to the streets for the "stop the steal" rally to challenge the election results and President Trump's loss. Members have far right groups such as the Proud Boys, conspiracy theorists such as Alex Jones, and some GOP members of Congress were among the many demonstrators.

[23:50:09]

My colleague Sara Sidner, spoke to one of yesterday's attendees.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You don't believe anyone that says this is a free and fair election? You think -

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely not.

SIDNER: Were 2016 a free and fair election?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was probably fraud then too. This swamp has gotten -

SIDNER: Do you think that Donald Trump won legitimately?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that the swamp is so deep that there's probably been fraud and cheating that have gone on for decades now.

SIDNER: So why weren't you out here in 2016? Why weren't you out here in 2016, if you thought there was fraud, and when Donald Trump won?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I there's been some fraud and all of the elections.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So this is just one example of how some Trump supporters are entrenched in believing conspiracy theories that have been amplified by the President and rallies and tweets.

Joining me now, Ellen Cushing, Special Projects Editor for the Atlantic.

You and the Atlantic have reported extensively about the misinformation coming from the President and also from the many groups supporting him. And yesterday, President Trump's motorcade drove past this rally, which got the crowds attention, as you can see in the highlighted part right there. What is your reaction to this, Ellen? ELLEN CUSHING, SPECIAL PROJECTS EDITOR, THE ATLANTIC: You know, it's deeply troubling to see a very large portion of the electorate rejecting a legitimate election. We have no signs that there was any fraud to see this many people out in the street saying that there was rejecting the truth is a problem. It's very troubling.

BROWN: So, I want to make clear the reason we have you want to talk about this is because you have real insight into how and why some people readily believe conspiracies. You wrote about this and may where you admit that you are a teenage conspiracy theorist, and you explain why this is such a compelling phenomenon.

You write in this article, "It posits a world where nothing happens by accident, where morality is playing, where every piece of information has divine meaning and every person has agency and makes a puzzle out of the conspiracy and a prestige drama hero out of the conspiracist."

It seems like you're saying it the appeal is more on the emotional level than an intellectual one.

CUSHING: That's exactly right. You know, if throwing pure facts that conspiracy theorists work, we would have eradicated conspiracy thinking. Debunking is only part of the issue here.

You know, conspiracy theories help you make sense of things that are unexplainable, or feel unexplainable. They give you certainty in an uncertain world, they make you feel like you're part of a community. So much of what we're seeing is a community of conspiracy theorists that are coming together and feeling like they're part of something.

And so I think that's what a lot of people misunderstand about this problem is that it's not just an information problem, it's a deeper problem about people's, you know, societal and psychological needs.

BROWN: Yes, it's interesting you say in the article that it starts with your worldview, and then the details come. But I mean, what happened with you, you were once a conspiracy theorists and now you're not, I'm assuming. How did you step out of it?

CUSHING: That's correct.

You know, I became a conspiracy theorist as a young teenager, I was about 14. And I think this happens to a lot of people. I just kind of grew out of it. I think that it was sort of a trolley teenage thing to some degree and as I got older.

And also importantly as conspiracy theories started to become darker and grimmer, you know, like, pizza gate. You know, there have been mass murders committed because of conspiracy theories. The whole environment became much scarier. And I matured, and I learned things about myself and I learned things about the world, and I just sort of grew out of it. But nobody -

BROWN: And did you even realize this is a conspiracy theory, like this is a whole -- did that ever dawn on you or no? CUSHING: Yes. I think I knew -- you know, I knew that it was -- when I first learned about -- I learned about the Illuminati in school from a somewhat wacky teacher. And at the time, I absolutely thought it was true.

It made a lot of sense to me, you know, when you're 14, you're just coming to understand how power structures work, you're just coming to understand how wealth and influence, you know, work in the world. And having something as simple as a shadowy cabal of people who control everything, it makes sense, like, it's an easy explanation for a really complicated thing.

BROWN: You can put everything in that box and think --

CUSHING: And so at the time I thought it was --

BROWN: -- OK, this is it, you know, it's in the box.

CUSHING: Totally. It's like, oh, that explains it, like, great.

BROWN: Right. Yes, exactly.

CUSHING: It's so easy.

BROWN: I could go on and on with you, Ellen.

CUSHING: Yes.

BROWN: Well, go ahead.

[23:55:01]

CUSHING: I was just going to say that I then, you know, I sort of started to realize that this was not a common thing that people believed in and I started to, you know, do more reading and meet more people and come to understand that this was not actually true and in fact that the answer was much more complicated than what I had been taught.

BROWN: Right.

All right. Well, I'm glad that you're no longer thinking that way. And thanks for coming on.

CUSHING: Thank you.

BROWN: It's really, really interesting to hear your insight in all of this. So thanks, Ellen. Appreciate it.

CUSHING: Thank you.

BROWN: Well, just over three hours ago, four astronauts aboard a SpaceX rocket made history

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Five, four, three, two one, zero --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And resilience rises. Not even gravity contains humanity when we explore as one for all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: They lifted off from the Kennedy Space Center in Florida at 7:27pm and they are now on their way to the International Space Station. They're expected to dock at the ISS in about four hours.

Three American NASA astronauts and one Japanese astronaut are traveling aboard the Crew Dragon spacecraft named Resilience and they are part of the first fully operational mission at the space station where they will spend the next six months.

Well thank you so much for joining me tonight. I'm Pamela Brown, "State of the Union" with Jake Tapper starts after the break.

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