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U.S. Military Told to Plan For Middle East Troop Drawdown; Trump Claims He Won Election; Second COVID-19 Vaccine Found Effective. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired November 16, 2020 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

VIVIAN SALAMA, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: And while he may be helping troops right now, later on we really could be putting ourselves back into another conundrum.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST, NEWSROOM: Yes, that's exactly right. Do you accept a certain but small level of risk right now, or are you creating a situation where then there is much more risk, and actually there are more lives at stake?

And to that point, General Hertling, I wonder, is this the Trump administration putting a potential disaster really right into the lap of an incoming administration? And in doing so, you know, sort of playing potentially with the lives of U.S. troops?

MARK HERTLING, FORMER COMMANDING GENERAL, U.S. ARMY EUROPE AND 7TH ARMY: It is my assessment that it is, Brianna. It's not only playing with the lives of U.S. troops, but it's undercutting the early stages of a formation of an Afghan government. They are not going to be able to hold against the Taliban. We have seen Taliban actions pushing against the Afghan government, we have seen the tenuous nature of the Iraqi government right now.

So, yes, it's not only putting troops in harm's way, it's also putting nations in harm's way and I think that's also something he's laying on the lap of President-elect Biden.

KEILAR: So what happens, Vivian, if the Afghan government is destabilized -- is destabilized by this and here in the coming months?

SALAMA: The Afghan government has been struggling all along, and the U.S. and other allies have really been trying to prop it up and get it on its feet so that it could kind of return to some level of normalcy.

But when you have countries like the U.S. withdrawing, a lot of other allies will start to question their own role in Afghanistan. And when countries start pulling out, then the Afghans are left to their own devices. They may not be able to solely control the Taliban, you also have pockets of ISIS around the country that are starting to grow and become out of control.

And you basically reverse so much of the hard work and effort that's been put into the past couple of years: the peace process and everything else. At this point (ph) when nobody is holding the Taliban and ISIS accountable, and the Afghan government for that matter, when no one is holding -- there to hold them accountable, they're left to their own devices and we may just backtrack so much of the effort and progress that's been made over the past, you know, almost two decades that we've been there.

HERTLING: Brianna, if I may, too --

KEILAR: Yes.

HERTLING: -- I think Vivian brings up a very good point. And that is about a third of the forces in Afghanistan also come from partners in Europe, our NATO partners. And has (ph) the coordination taken place, or is this just a unilateral issue with U.S. forces that will put several nations in Europe that are contributing a great many forces to Afghanistan, at risk themselves and further damage the transatlantic relationship as part of this entire action?

KEILAR: General, Vivian, thank you so much, really appreciate your analysis here of this breaking news.

President-elect Joe Biden, set to speak moments from now as CNN is learning that the U.S. military has been told to plan for a U.S. troop drawdown in Afghanistan and Iraq in the final days of the Trump administration.

Now, keep in mind, President Trump has yet to concede the election, he has yet to acknowledge that he lost and he is refusing to start the normal transition of power with the Biden team.

I want to go to Kaitlan Collins at the White House -- Kaitlan.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Brianna, you're right that we are still, and many days of the president refusing to concede this election and of course formally acknowledge that Joe Biden has won this election. But this comes as we are now learning that U.S. military commanders are preparing to get a formal order from President Trump, wanting this drawdown of troops in Afghanistan and in Iraq.

Now, what they've done basically is sent this warning to their subordinates, saying prepare for this, start preparing for this drawdown. It would be about a thousand troops in both Afghanistan and Iraq. And they say prepare for this to happen before January, when the president is expected to leave office -- by January 15th, actually, is what my colleague Barbara Starr is reporting.

And so this is long something that we've known, Brianna, that the president has wanted to do. He's been frustrated that it hasn't happened yet, but of course he has been president all of this time, and it hasn't happened yet under his watch, we should note. And now of course that he's got two months left on the job, this is when we are starting to see this.

And we're expecting this order could come as soon as this week. My colleague Barbara Starr notes it could come as soon as within the next 48 hours, so that would be significant.

And of course, you've got to look at what's happening here, because it's not just that Joe Biden is about to take office in two months, it's also that there has been a total clearing of the deck at the Pentagon, where the president fired his defense secretary last Monday, and of course we saw several other top officials at the Pentagon then leave their posts either because they were fired or they resigned from those jobs.

So it's basically an entirely new set of leadership at the Pentagon that the president is dealing with, with of course Chris Miller is now the acting defense secretary. And so the question is not only how quickly does this happen and why is the president doing it now, now that he's only got two months left in office, but of course what effect does it have on the Biden administration once they come into office and what they are going to do going forward.

[14:05:16]

Because this is something that is going to have a lasting effect. We know the president has been wanting to make several other major moves since, in these last days in his time in office, potentially firing the CIA director is one of those. But this is something that would have a lasting impact on the Biden administration as soon as they start in January.

KEILAR: No, it certainly would. And I'm glad you point that out, Kaitlan.

I want to bring in our CNN chief political analyst Gloria Borger and our CNN political correspondent Abby Phillip to talk about this.

Gloria, to Kaitlan's point there, I mean, who does this? Who drops something like this in the lap of an incoming president?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: No one other than Donald Trump. I think what he's trying to do is go through his bucket list, quite honestly, and saying, you know, he promised to get out of these wars and he was going to do it, and Jake Tapper was --

KEILAR: OK, can I -- but Gloria, can we just be clear on that? He's not getting out of these wars. I mean, he's --

BORGER: That's right, that's right. He's just withdrawing -- that's right.

KEILAR: -- it's not like he's ending it, he's just handicapping the next guy who has to deal with it.

BORGER: Well, and that's part of his -- you know, that's part of his calculation, if there is a calculation behind it other than saying, this is what I said I was going to do, we weren't going to fight, quote, "endless wars," that's what I mean. And he believes this is doing that. And handing Joe Biden a problem.

And as Jake Tapper was reporting last week, there were -- there was a lot of talk that that was why Esper and company were being pushed out, the former defense secretary, because they disagreed with the president doing this.

But this is a president, as we've all been watching over the last couple of weeks, who is desperate and who understands that he's going to have to leave, and wants to do what he can to, quote, "cement," unquote his legacy, whatever that might be, and he wants this to be a part of it. I think it's just as simple as that.

KEILAR: Abby, what do you think?

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, I do think that there's probably an element of this that is about weakening Joe Biden as much as possible for purely political reasons, because this is a president who is going to be leaving the White House while also seeding the ground for a potential second run for office.

And he's also trying to build a foundation upon which Republicans can continue to succeed with Trumpism. And in order to do that, he has to be able to say, you know, I promised to get us out of these foreign wars. And the Democrats want to keep us in these foreign wars.

So a lot of this is about being able to have a rhetorical platform for the president. But again, as you point out, there are obviously real- life consequences. And I think the most important part of this that sticks out to me that we can't forget is that the president just spend the last two weeks purging the civilian leadership of the Pentagon.

We have to ask real questions about why that happened and what was the endgame? Why would the president try to do that, was the question that we had all along. And maybe now we're seeing one of the main reasons --

BORGER: Yes.

PHILLIP: -- why. And that should really be an alarming thing for a lot of people in Washington.

KEILAR: And, Gloria, I mean, if he's, you know, doing this to weaken Joe Biden, he's doing this at the expense of the safety of American troops.

BORGER: Absolutely, absolutely.

KEILAR: To do something this quickly -- I mean, not that we should be particularly surprised. We're also watching him stand idly by while Americans die, and he doesn't really seem to give a damn that they're dying of coronavirus, he hasn't changed his tune, he just pretends it doesn't exist. And here he is doing something that really could put at risk American troops.

BORGER: Right, absolutely. And I think what he -- you know, what he wants to do, as Abby is saying, is drop a problem in Joe Biden's lap. And if you know the history of Joe Biden, he has not been one who is for robust military intervention in any way, shape or form. So he can drop this problem on Biden, and if Biden believes he needs

to put these troops back, he would do it because if he believes and his Pentagon brass believe that is in -- it is in the safety of American troops and in the national security interests of this country.

But that is not what this president is talking about or thinking. I think what we need to hear right now are from some of the military brass who may be out, who can perhaps talk about what this means for the safety of our troops in the region.

PHILLIP: And, Brianna, I just want to be clear that, you know, presidents can make decisions about troop levels, that's their job. They are the commander in chief, they're responsible for deciding where we are and how many American troops are in harm's way.

[14:10:05]

The problem is how it's being done, and whether there is a strategy behind it or whether it is all political. I think that's the biggest question here --

KEILAR: Totally.

PHILLIP: -- is not so much does the president have the authority to do this? He absolutely does. The question is, if the Pentagon did in fact push back, what was the reasoning behind that? Could it be because they believe that that is not, from a strategic perspective, in the best interest of American national security.

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: And this wouldn't be --

KEILAR: Troops put themselves at risk for strategic --

BORGER: Yes.

KEILAR: -- they -- that's something they do, they -- that's why they sign up. You know, if there is a strategic reason to do something, they accept that, they follow orders, they do what people above them say even if maybe it doesn't make sense to them.

But in this case, Abby, you bring up a really good point. Is this strategic? Maybe -- it doesn't really, you know, appear to be, it appears to be political -- and does it put troops at risk? Very possibly.

I'm going to have you guys stand -- oh sorry, Gloria, quick final word here, please.

BORGER: No, I just want to say, this -- again, this is his bucket list, this is stuff he's checking off that he wants to do before he leaves office. There is really no grand strategy here because he's not listening to any other voice other than his own.

KEILAR: All right, Gloria, Abby, if you can stand by for me.

The president's refusal to accept the results of the election could have grave consequences for the country. Not only does it delay any healing for the nation after the contentious campaigns, it could also delay action on the economy. And more importantly, delay action against the deadly coronavirus.

And yet there's the president tweeting this, "I WON THE ELECTION!" Like if he tweets it in all caps, it will make it true. Well it doesn't, and that seems to be sinking in some places. Here's national security adviser Robert O'Brien from earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT O'BRIEN, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: If after (ph) the Biden- Harris ticket is determined to be the winner, and it's -- you know, obviously things look that way now -- we'll have a very professional transition from the National Security Council, there's no question about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: And here's what we heard a short time ago from Maryland's Republican governor, Larry Hogan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. LARRY HOGAN (R-MD): The president is tweeting all day and night about beating Joe Biden instead of focused on let's have a really successful next couple of months and focusing on these problems.

ROGER ZAKHEIM, DIRECTOR, REAGAN FOUNDATION: So you're saying focus on transition? And when is the right time to accept this outcome and concede?

HOGAN: I mean, tomorrow it will be two weeks since we haven't seen anything. It's -- the time has come. I mean, more and more people, very close supporters and friends of the president, are all giving him that advice. He's just not listening.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Now, regardless of the president's complaining and spinning of unfounded conspiracy theories, it is simple: Joe Biden got 5.5 million more votes, and he exceeded the number of electoral votes needed to be president.

Gloria, I want to bring you back in to talk about this. What's Trump up to with these denials? What is his endgame?

BORGER: Look, I -- at this point, the answer to what is his endgame? His endgame is the way that he can leave thinking that he has convinced the American public that he didn't lose, that the election was rigged and that somehow, somewhere he has a way back into American political life if he wants it. I don't think it's anything more complicated than trying to figure out a way to deal with his own ego.

And don't forget, Brianna, this is the way Donald Trump has dealt with everything in his life. You know, when he ran casinos in Atlantic City, he never paid his bills, he litigated and litigated and litigated until people just kind of gave up. And I think that's what he's doing now, he's kind of litigating, if you will, until people kind of shrug and it becomes January 20th and that's it and he goes.

KEILAR: And I wonder, Abby, you know, it's like with each day that passes, this becomes a bigger issue. It was a problem that he didn't -- whatever, if he wants to concede. But the issue of does the president set in place the machinery that allows a Joe Biden transition to come in and set up and do what it needs to do to get off to a good start for the best of the country?

You know, he's not -- he's not doing that. How does this get compounded with each day that passes where the president is just in denial?

PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, look, the delay in and of itself is a real problem, but I do suspect that at a certain point, the law is going to step in here. These election results will be certified, and this process is going to move forward whether the president is backing it up or not.

I suspect that even after the Biden transition maybe gets the funding that they're looking for, maybe gets some of the more kind of mechanical parts of the transition that they need like cooperation on classified information or issues like having secure facilities to conduct their work on national security issues, there will be political appointees within the administration that will not try to really hand over the core knowledge of these agencies. That's going to be a problem.

[14:15:11]

And, yes, it does -- given the -- I mean, we've been discussing, there's the coronavirus pandemic, there's the economy and now there are -- you know, obviously urgent national security issues. It would be, I think, unprecedented for this administration to wait until January 20th to have full and complete cooperation at all levels of government with the transition. But that will be part of President Trump's legacy if that is the road that they decide to go down.

BORGER: Can I point out, though, that it is a crime not to hand over the work of government to the next administration, or to destroy, for example, the work of government and not hand it over to the next administration. So people ought to keep that in mind.

KEILAR: Yes, we'll be watching. Gloria, thank you so much. Abby, thank you so much to you.

And stand by because moments from now -- and we are looking at some live pictures here of what will be this event -- President-elect Joe Biden and Vice President-elect Kamala Harris are going to speak on the economy as we get news about troop drawdowns in Iraq and Afghanistan. And we are watching this pandemic worsen. We're going to bring that to you, live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:20:40]

KEILAR: The cavalry is coming, that is the quote from top health officials responding to today's news of the second major vaccine breakthrough in just the last two weeks, much-needed hope during the darkest time so far in the pandemic.

Moderna's vaccine candidate is nearly 95 percent effective against the coronavirus. This is according to initial trial data -- we're still awaiting much more information here. But these results are coming just days after Pfizer released highly promising information about its vaccines.

Now, these companies still need to submit those detailed reports that I was just talking about, to the FDA in the coming weeks. That is going to give us a lot of information about these vaccines that we don't have. But these early trial results exceed the expectations of government scientists and health officials like the head of the National Institutes of Health.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

FRANCIS COLLINS, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH (via telephone): This really is a significant milestone, two Monday mornings in a row, with remarkable results to report of interim analyses of COVID-19 vaccine trials in a circumstance that really outstrips the expectations that most of us had in terms of the level of efficacy. As Tony Fauci has said, that means the cavalry is coming.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

KEILAR: Now, developments on these vaccines, that is good news. But we do not expect to see them widely available until the spring and on from there.

Right now, coronavirus is spreading at an unprecedented rate. You just look at the map here, you can see, it is not good and it's actually going to get worse before it gets better.

For the 13th day in a row now, the U.S. has reported more than 100,000 new infections in a day. And that means that coronavirus has infected more than a million people in the past week. And since it hit the U.S., coronavirus has infected more than a million children, according to just-released details from the American Academy of Pediatrics.

Testing lines, they are once again hours long -- you can see this scene here, this is of cars queuing up in Illinois for testing, drive- through testing there.

The nation's surgeon general is describing the state of the crisis this way, quote, "We are truly at war with this virus. Our frontline troops are weary, and the enemy has us surrounded." Joining me now is our CNN senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen. And this is -- look, this is the exciting news about Moderna's initial results. We should stress this is the -- these are initial results, but we're also listening to scientific voices and they seem downright elated. So how well did this vaccine work?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: This vaccine was 94.5 percent effective at keeping people from getting sick with coronavirus. Now, this is very similar to Pfizer's number, theirs was more than 90 percent. That is not a coincidence, both vaccines used the same kind of technology.

So seeing these results, and also seeing that there weren't safety issues, Brianna. Nobody got very, very sick -- people had headaches or had body aches, but nothing really severe. So not only did the Moderna vaccine prevent people -- prevent most people, almost everybody -- from getting COVID-19, but when they got the vaccine, none of them got severely ill with COVID-19.

Now, many people in this trial, they got a placebo, they got a shot of saline that does absolutely nothing. And some of those people did become severely ill with COVID-19. I spoke yesterday with Dr. Tal Zaks, he's the chief medical officer at Moderna. Let's take a listen at what he had to say about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAL ZAKS, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, MODERNA: We had unfortunately 11 participants in this trial, out of the 30,000 that we've been treating, that came down with severe disease. These are people who either have low oxygen level in their blood, severe respiratory decompensation or need to go to the hospital. All of these cases occurred only on the placebo arm, we did not see a single case of severe disease on the people who were vaccinated with our mRNA vaccine against COVID.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: Now, Brianna, two things to make clear here. The way that this clinical trial worked is that people were given either the vaccine or the placebo, and they then just went out and lived their lives. And they followed them for months to see who got COVID. No one intentionally infected them with coronavirus, they just happened to get coronavirus because there is so much of it around in the U.S.

Also, this is a vaccine that you may have to get every year. The thinking is, is that this is not a vaccine for a lifetime -- Brianna.

KEILAR: OK. And you know, one of the most interesting things I know you can tell us is, you compare Pfizer's to the Moderna vaccine, there are some differences here. Will you also tell us if that's going to mean that one would necessarily be distributed over the other? Because I would expect that as there's this great demand for vaccines, any vaccine is going to be desired and bought and purchased and used.

[14:25:21] COHEN: Yes, for sure. I mean, right now we need both of them, and they're both -- they seem to be almost identical in terms of how well they work, how well they protect people and also in terms of how safe they are, that people didn't -- they didn't make anybody sick.

But there is one huge difference between Moderna and Pfizer. So let's take a look at that. So Pfizer has to be kept at minus-103 degrees Fahrenheit, it's even hard to sort of contemplate how cold that is. So doctor's offices and pharmacies, they do not have freezers that go anywhere near that low. And here's another thing, once it's taken out of that cold temperature, it can only be in the fridge for five days before you would have to throw it out if you don't use it.

Moderna, on the other hand, is minus-four degrees Fahrenheit. The doctor's offices and pharmacies do have freezers that go to that temperature -- as a matter of fact, they use them all the time. And once you take it out of the freezer, you have 30 days to use it while it's in the refrigerator. That is a big difference.

Now, Pfizer may be able to change their vaccine in the coming months, year or two to make it so that it's not quite so fragile. But right now, Moderna's is definitely easier to use. But as you said, Brianna, we don't have enough of either. So we, at this point, need both.

KEILAR: Need both. Get those super-duper freezers ready. All right, Elizabeth Cohen --

COHEN: Right.

KEILAR: -- thank you so much.

COHEN: Thanks.

KEILAR: And you know, President Trump likes to claim that we are rounding the turn on coronavirus, but like many of his past claims that just doesn't line up with reality. We will roll the tape.

Plus more on our breaking news, CNN learning the U.S. military has been told to plan for a troop drawdown in Afghanistan and Iraq.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)