Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Interview With Former Education Secretary Arne Duncan; Obama Weighs in on Trump Refusing to Concede, What Worries Him Most on America's Democracy; Trump Rushes to Auction Arctic Refuge Oil & Gas Drilling Rights Before Biden Can Block; Trump to Attempt to Box Biden Administration on China Policies; Soon, Biden & Harris Expected to Speak on Economy as Pandemic Worsens. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired November 16, 2020 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:31:35]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: More than 11 million people in this country have contracted coronavirus, and that includes former education secretary, Arne Duncan, and his family.

He's now sharing his story with the world. He has a very important message that's very timely about Thanksgiving plans. And he's with us now.

Secretary, thank you so much for being here.

I really want to talk to you about this message. It seems like all anyone is talking about is what their Thanksgiving Day plans are and they're trying to work it out with their family and friends.

First, can you tell us, how are you doing? How is your wife and son doing?

ARNE DUNCAN, FORMER EDUCATION SECRETARY: Sure. We're very, very fortunate. We're headed the right direction. We're getting better.

As we know, that often is not the case for families. This has been zero fun. I wouldn't wish this on anybody. But we are fortunate. I absolutely appreciate that.

KEILAR: You say it was mild, but it flattened you guys.

DUNCAN: Yes, the best way to describe it, honestly, is like being hit by a truck. We are all athletic. We all work out. We're in good shape. And it hits you, it just levels you. It does flatten you. It humbles you.

Working through it will be a process. It's not something you bounce back the next day on.

KEILAR: So, look, we're at this point in time where Thanksgiving is upon us, very soon Christmas and Hanukkah to follow. And people are missing their families as we're in the middle of this huge surge in coronavirus.

You want to tell people something.

DUNCAN: Yes. It's not my goal it life to become Scrooge.

KEILAR: Yes.

DUNCAN: But as you said, seeing things are spiking across the country, seeing the rates seeming to go exponentially, it terrifies me.

The truth is it doesn't matter who got it first, my wife, my son. The truth is one of us got it, brought it home. And we were all pretty sick within a day. And I don't want to wish that on anybody.

So I really strongly urge folks -- again, they may disagree, I understand that -- but really urging people to stay home. If you care about your friends and families and loved ones, this is not the time to be mixing.

I hate to say that. I know how much we're missing -- people are missing -- my 85-year-old mother with Alzheimer's. I haven't been able to be with her for about six months. There's nothing fun or easy about this.

But there's nothing worse than having, you know, people you care about contract this virus.

So it gives a hard message. It's not one I feel great about. But I feel compelled to try and challenge people to stay home Christmas -- Thanksgiving. We'll see about Christmas when we get there. Just to try to keep their loved ones and the broader community safe.

We have to get our hands around this virus. Right now, it's winning, and we're not.

KEILAR: You talk a bit about, you know, you were being pretty careful, but you still contracted it.

You were doing the things that the CDC says you should do, wearing masks, washing your hands, socially distancing.

Do you have any idea how your family got this?

DUNCAN: We really don't. We were checked very quickly on the contact tracing and thank goodness nobody we were in contact with seems to have become positive. So we're very, very thankful on that.

But, yes, for six months, we've been honestly extraordinarily disciplined. We wear masks, haven't had people in the house. We don't go to other people's houses. We don't go to large crowds. We maintain social distancing.

[14:35:01]

I just think that the rate of infection now is so high that, even if you think you're doing everything right, you may not be doing enough. So we truly don't know which one of us contracted it or how. We were

trying to be as good as we could, not just recently, but for a long time. It honestly wasn't quite good enough.

KEILAR: You know, I wonder what you think, because I know this is anecdotal, but what I've heard from people I know is, a lot of times, it is parents, sometimes elderly parents who want to get together for the holidays.

They're obviously lonely. They want to have the family gathering like they've always had.

What do you say to people who are -- they're being pressured by family members to get together?

DUNCAN: Yes. It's the right question. I just think if you love people, you have to do the right thing. The right thing may not be the easy thing.

And we're all doing that. We're just all missing our loved ones and friends and family. So that's very, very real.

As I said, nobody, nobody wants to give something like this to the people they love. That's not something that you'll ever forget or ever fully recover from.

So it's sort of an act of love sometimes to do something that's a little more difficult, things that you may not want to do, your family may not want to do.

But if you truly care about people, you'll do the right thing.

Unfortunately, right now, in our country, because this has not been dealt with at the federal level, because there's been absence of leadership, because the virus is winning, we have to do some things out of love that are a bit harder.

But they are absolutely acts of love and compassion. I can't overstate that.

KEILAR: Secretary Duncan, thank you so much for being with us. We're glad to see you're feeling better. Our best to your family as you recover as well.

DUNCAN: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

KEILAR: Moments from now, President-Elect Joe Biden and Vice President-Elect Harris will speak live as the pandemic worsens. These are live pictures from Wilmington, Delaware.

And the president still refusing to start the transition process. We're going to bring that to you as soon as it gets going.

Plus, former President Obama weighing in on President Trump's refusal to concede and what he says worries him the most about America's democracy. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:41:24]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When your time is up, then it is your job to put the country first and think beyond your own ego and your own interests and your own disappointments.

My advice to President Trump is, if you want, at this late-stage in- the-game, to be remembered as somebody who put country first, it's time for you to do the same thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: All right. I want to bring in Gloria Borger and Abby Phillip to talk about this.

Gloria, I think hearing the former president say that, I think that's something any former president would say.

It's not a partisan thing, right? It's sort of a personal thing that most presidents seem to share about putting the country first, especially, they get to this point, thinking about their legacy.

I wonder if this will fall on deaf ears.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Do you?

(LAUGHTER)

KEILAR: Very much.

BORGER: Well, I think this will fall on deaf ears. Donald Trump is not thinking about his legacy. I don't think that's the way he thinks.

I think he's thinking next steps. Does he run for office again? Does he run for the presidency again in 2024?

How does he monetize this presidency after he leaves? How can he -- should he have a TV show? Should he go around giving speeches for money? Hold rallies for money?

I don't think he's thinking about his place in history right now.

He's already told us how he is thinking about himself historically. He's the greatest president for African-Americans since Abraham Lincoln, for example. We know that, of course, not to be true.

I think his mindset is a little different from most presidents we're used to hearing.

KEILAR: I wonder, Abby, if you think -- I mean, President Trump must be thinking about his legacy. It just seems that it's so different from the way anyone else is thinks about the legacy of a president. ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Honestly, the way that I

think about this, and the way that I believe President Trump thinks about this, is you know that odd adage that history is written by the victors.

I think President Trump is thinking about, what is the scenario in which his allies can have the most political power, even though he is not in office. And how will that frame how he is viewed in sort of a retrospective way by history.

Now, he could be wrong about that. But I think that's how he sees it, is that, you know, if he sort of just gives in to this idea that he has to step off the stage, he will certainly be reflected on in history in a negative way.

But the fight that you are seeing here put up is about the president not wanting to cede power.

And wanting to make sure that everything that comes after this moment, the Republican Party relies on him, his supporters. And he's having, by any measure, a great amount of success in that.

Look at Ted Cruz. You just went through the tape on Ted Cruz and how he was the subject of President Trump's lies about elections. And now he's backing the president up in something that's completely made up.

So, look, President Trump is playing a hardball game, hoping, at the end of the day, his supporters will be the ones framing history.

We'll just have to see how that turns out. But I think that is the framing by which he looks at this whole situation.

[14:45:03]

BORGER: So if he can't be the king, he wants to be the king maker. I agree with Abby on that 100 percent.

But I also think there's something else there in Donald Trump's psyche, which is that he still wants to command attention. He needs the adulation, and the stage.

PHILLIP: Yes.

BORGER: He's just trying to figure out what that stage. And he's just trying to figure out what that stage should be if he is not president of the United States.

I think that is what we are seeing now, because he will never give up his insatiable need to be adored and be the center of attention. Never.

PHILLIP: That's right.

KEILAR: Energized by the attention. Clearly energized by the chaos as well.

BORGER: Yes.

KEILAR: So where does that take him? We shall see.

Gloria, Abby, thank you so much.

You know, we told you about the military being told to prepare for a drawdown in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Trump administration is making moves behind the scenes in other ways before the Biden administration can block them. We'll have new reporting next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:50:34]

KEILAR: With his days numbered in the White house, President Trump is rushing to auction off oil and gas drilling rights in the Arctic National Refuge in Alaska.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond is at the White House.

Jeremy, what is the president trying to do with this last-minute attempt to auction off these leases?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, it seems like the president is trying to lock in the drilling rights for this Arctic National Wildlife Refuge before President-Elect Joe Biden takes office in 65 days.

What the Trump administration did today is they started the process of leasing off tracts of land in that wildlife refuge known as ANWR, asking drillers to essentially pick tracts of land where they would like to drill on.

That sets off a 30-day clock before a sale date is actually announced. So environmental groups are saying this is an attempt to rush this process through and get it done before President-Elect Joe Biden takes office.

And let me read you a statement from one of those environmental groups that is leading the fight against this. This is from Earthjustice's deputy managing attorney, Eric Grafe.

He says, quote, "This is the Trump administration's midnight effort to sell off irreplaceable lands in the refuge before a new day dawns. We are already in court challenging the administration's decision to open the whole coastal plains to leasing and will hold the line against this rush attempt to implement the unlawful program."

Now, Brianna, Congress actually authorized the drilling on this land back in 2017 as part of the Trump administration's tax bill.

But this is something that's been controversial for many years and something that Republicans and oil companies have been trying to get done for years now. And they've only been able to get it under the Trump administration. And so the question is: If they are able to get this, it seems like

this is a clock that's going to be much more difficult to unwind if, indeed, those leasing rights are granted.

Democrats, of course, including President-Elect Biden, have long opposed drilling on these lands.

So we'll just have to see whether or not they are able to get this done in time and how the Biden administration is going to react -- Brianna?

KEILAR: Jeremy, thank you for bringing that report to us from the White House.

CNN has learned that President Trump also plans to step up his hardline policies toward China in the final weeks in office.

The China hawks in the administration believe the tough approach could back the Biden administration into a corner with China.

We have CNN national security correspondent, kylie Atwood, with more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: I'm Kylie Atwood at the State Department.

Administration officials tell CNN the Trump administration plans to continue carrying out its hardline China policies over the last two months of their administration.

The newly installed acting secretary of defense has been told to focus on cyber and irregular warfare, particularly with regard to China.

China hawks in the Trump administration believe this may be an opportunity to box in the incoming Biden team on China. Because if they roll back these policies, they may be viewed as being easy on China or appeasing China.

President-Elect Joe Biden has said he will focus on competing with China. But he's also said that in places where necessary, they will work with China, issues such as North Korea and climate change.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KEILAR: Kylie Atwood, thank you so much.

As we await word from President-Elect Joe Biden and Vice President- Elect Kamala Harris, I want to bring in Julia Chatterley to talk about what we're hearing today.

Julie, we expect the president-elect to be talking about the economy. What are you looking for?

JULIE CHATTERLEY, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR, "FIRST MOVE": Well, there is a few things here, I have to say, when we're focusing in on what will say today.

He's made noises about trying to get the pandemic under control. That is the pathway to providing economic support and resurrecting and recovering the ten million jobs that were still lost.

So this is the first thing, the short-term impact.

What's interesting is the number of people that he's surrounded himself by today to get advice from.

He's really focusing on labor and recovering those jobs. We're talking about the heads of some of the biggest labor unions in the country, the CEO of General Motors, for example, the CEO of Gap.

He understands this is a consumer-driven economy and we need to focus on jobs.

Beyond that, of course, you've got the healing for the bigger economy and what we can do to achieve that.

And that comes down to far bigger issues. The inequality gaps in this country that have been exacerbated by the epidemic, and what he can do about education. There's lots of different angles they can take here.

[14:55:01]

And of course, it comes down to the politics of what's possible.

Will he reflect on the fact that he's looking ahead towards divided government here, potentially, because that's going to tie his hands for some really big changes?

But at least in the short term it's about tackling the virus and trying to reach some kind of deal in Congress to get cash to desperate people, and that's long overdue.

KEILAR: Part of this is going to be -- there was a way to do something more economically than President Trump has been able to do.

And that would have required doing best practices when it came to health, right? We've seen other countries have better success with this. These are two things that go hand in hand.

So part of this, for Biden, is going to be, you know, how do you link these two things together and convince Americans, many of whom, Julia, really are resisting just scientific stuff, scientific fact on what they need to do in order to get the economy back on the right track.

CHATTERLEY: There are so many pieces to this. The first thing, and you're absolutely right, Brianna, dump the science skepticism. Get on board with basic things like mask wearing. Don't deny this virus is a problem. Don't downplay the impact of this virus that it's having.

That will make a material difference. And it's all connected. Then we can start the criticism with Congress over not providing support.

But you're absolutely right. On the basic level, the economy can be managed. People's health can be improved.

And the risk of them catching this virus can be improved by not denying that the virus exists or isn't as bad as, perhaps, one assumes.

So these are immediate changes that can take place. And already, Joe Biden is making these noises and all he's got to do is emphasize.

You know, Brianna, we can talk about all the optimism that we're seeing out there about a vaccine.

One of the other big challenges that Joe Biden is going to inherit is, while he's building a bridge to get us to the point where we can take a vaccine, is tackling some of the skepticism about this, too, and the people that are fearful of taking a vaccine in this country.

Because that's an additional challenge that we're not talking about amid the broader enthusiasm about the future vaccine and the light at the end of the tunnel that we're seeing.

So very short term, dump the science skepticism. Two, provide economic support and hopefully get Congress on board. And, three, then we can talk about vaccines coming in the not-too-distant future.

He's got a lot of work to do.

KEILAR: It does.

And Congress is huge in this, Julia. They have been stymied in coming to coming to the rescue of Americans who really need them.

CHATTERLEY: They have. And you can look at the response and the approach by both sides here and criticize the Democrats, perhaps, delaying in the runup to the election. The Republicans for not providing the sheer quantity of support.

Unfortunately, what we've seen is a lack of ability to control this virus. And, of course, that in the last few weeks has got worse and worse and worse.

It means, in the absence of a concerted plan, you have to buy the recovery.

And even if the Republicans continue to have control of the Senate, they need to get with the program here and recognize that $500 billion is not going to be enough in the absence of a broader plan to control the virus.

We have 10 million people in America that lost jobs as a result of the pandemic and still not recovered them. And 21 million Americans claiming some form of jobless benefit.

Many millions of those have those specific pandemic benefits running out at the end of January. We've got an estimated 11 to 13 million people that face eviction beyond the beginning of next year. Brianna, I am throwing facts and statistics at you, but we are in

economic crisis. And there's no time to lose. And Congress needs to step up. And that's been due for months.

KEILAR: Julia, thank you so much for putting all of that into perspective for us.

We are standing by right now to hear from President-Elect Joe Biden and Vice President-Elect Kamala Harris on the economy. These are live pictures from Delaware.

We are back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:00:00]