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Biden Briefed By National Security Experts But Not By Government; Fulton County, NY, Sheriff Richard Giardino Discusses Why He Will Not Enforce NY Governor's Mandate To Police Thanksgiving Gatherings; Trump's Scorched-Earth Plans Clearer As Term Expires; Interview With Brett Bruen, Former Director Of Global Engagement; GOP Election Chief Says Graham Asked About Tossing Votes. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired November 17, 2020 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

ANDREW KIRTZMAN, AUTHOR: So this is just one more example of how, you know, it's in his best interests to try to keep the Trump presidency alive no matter how just distant the possibility of that is.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Pamela, let's talk about what the president is trying to do here. Because even people close to him I don't think believe he's going to change the outcome of this election. He's not going to.

So what does he want?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I think it's pretty clear that what he wants now, Brianna, he knows he's not going to change the outcome but wants to sow doubt in the election results.

He's OK with a portion of the country thinking the election was stolen from him, which it wasn't. He wants to sow conspiracy theories. He wants to delegitimize Joe Biden's presidency.

And I'm told by sources he's also nursing an old grievance with all of this.

He felt, rightly or wrongly, Brianna, President Obama and Hillary Clinton never recognized him as a legitimate president, because they talked about the fact that Russia interfered in the 2016 election, which is accurate.

Hillary Clinton conceded to the president. The transition was able to begin right away. But nonetheless, the president feels like he was never really given a fair shot and was never recognized.

So in a sense, that is what he's doing right now. These legal efforts are more of an effort to sow chaos and doubt. It appears to be more of a P.R. effort than anything -- Brianna?

KEILAR: Pamela, thank you.

Andrew Kirtzman, thank you for joining us and sharing your extensive knowledge about Rudy Giuliani. We appreciate it.

One New York sheriff will not enforce the governor's mandate to police Thanksgiving gatherings. He will join me next.

President Trump working to undermine Joe Biden's legitimacy by instituting big policy changes on his way out the door.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:36:23]

KEILAR: All right. You're looking at pictures moments ago out of Wilmington, Delaware. President-Elect Joe Biden is receiving a national security briefing, meeting with national security experts.

And this is interesting, right? It isn't normally what you see the president-elect doing.

I want to bring in Jessica Dean covering the transition to talk about this.

Normally, what you would see, or might not see, would be a president- elect who is talking behind the scenes with, yes, some national security advisers, but maybe also getting that information from the outgoing administration.

This is happening in lieu of that because President Trump has not started the transition.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: That's exactly right, Brianna. What we are looking at is this kind of de facto security briefing that the transition team has put together, full of people who have been both already advising the president and others.

People like Anthony Blinken, who he's come to rely on, counseling him during the campaign. Former ambassador to U.N., Samantha Power, taking part in this. General Stanley McChrystal is taking part in this. And a number of other experts in their field.

To your point, Brianna, typically, this sort of information would be coming from the intelligence officials and outgoing officials that Joe Biden would be getting as president-elect, these presidential daily briefings, which are top lines of all the most important threads happening in regard to national security.

That's not happening, because the General Services Administration, that federal office responsible for signing off on the formal transition, has yet to do so. President Trump is not conceding.

But Brianna, interesting to note we have heard some Republicans, like former chief of staff, John Kelly, saying that Vice President-Elect -- President-Elect Joe Biden should be receiving these or it could be catastrophic to national security.

He is incoming president and should know what's going on. But instead, he's meeting with experts in their fields but also not privy to the classified information he would typically get -- Brianna?

KEILAR: It's important he get that and he's not.

Jessica, thank you, live from Wilmington, Delaware.

New York's governor is not only fighting the virus but counties law enforcement in parts his state.

After Governor Cuomo issued a new order that would limiting private parties to 10 people, the sheriff in Fulton County took to social media declaring he would not enforce it.

Fulton County is in Upstate New York. And its sheriff, Richard Giardino, is one of at least three New York State sheriffs now saying they're not going to enforce the governor's order.

Sheriff Giardino joins me now to talk about this.

Sheriff, I'm glad you're with us.

I imagine enforcing an order like this is something that would pose some challenges. But also you, of course, have critics saying you should be doing it.

You say you're not going to enforce the order limiting gathering to ten people. Tell us why?

RICHARD GIARDINO, SHERIFF, FULTON COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT: I say I can't enforce the order because I think it's unconstitutional.

To explain why I think it's unconstitutional, I have to take a second to explain what it do.

The Constitution of Bill of Rights allows a balancing act for safety of society and limiting individuals' liberty.

For example, you can't yell fire in a crowded movie theater if there's not a fire. The government can limit your First Amendment freedom of speech rights.

Under case law and the Constitution, the governor absolutely has a right to limit how many people can go a bar or a restaurant, wearing a face mask in public buildings, private businesses. He can also limit what time they must close.

[14:40:03]

That's because he's got administrative agencies like the State Liquor Authority, the -- the Health Department. Those agencies issue licenses and have control over private and public institutions and businesses.

So he's allowed to do that, especially with a coronavirus, the CV-19 virus, which we know is deadly. I don't minimize the loss of people or those that get sick.

But under the Constitution, the order is vague. It says 10 or less the most you can have in your private residence.

I don't think that the Constitution allows for the infringement of your own number of -- the number of people you have in your own home. I start at that position.

So he has authority to do a lot, but not to tell us law enforcement to go into people's houses and do a count.

To get into a house, you need probable cause for a search warrant, permission or an emergency purpose. None exists.

The other thing, the government has authority under the Constitution and case law to quarantine individuals into their own homes. If they don't stay, get a court order to quarantine them at other locations.

So I wanted to lay the land out a little bit because my position as sheriff, I took the same oath the government did to support and defend the Constitution of the United States in the state of New York and to vigorously defend that Constitution.

I don't take any issue with the governor's intent. I believe the governor's intent is to do what he thinks is best under the circumstances.

But as a constitutionally -- constitutional officer, I have an obligation to my constituents in my county to following the law.

KEILAR: I think you feel earnestly about that.

I want to playing devil's advocate here.

GIARDINO: Fine.

KEILAR: Someone looks at this and will say you have a lot of people in a home, then you're causing community spread beyond that home. You wouldn't expect, if you were in your home and harming somebody, to be able to get legal protection.

You know, what would you say to an argument like that? You're not allowed, not permitted under law, just because it's in the home, to harm someone or do a number of things causing danger to people beyond your home?

GIARDINO: I like your argument, but you have to remember a couple things going on.

First of all, limited to 10 or fewer people. A lot of people in various countries and in our state, areas of the country, that may have an extended family living with them, grandparents, daughters and sons, boyfriends and girlfriends, parents.

What if you have a household with 11 people who live their year around? You have to kick one of those people out, Brianna? Makes no sense logically. And it's indefensible in court.

The other component you mention that's interesting is this. You pick a number of 10. What's the difference between 10 and 11? One person. Does one more person make it any more deadly, the virus?

For instance, if there's 11 people and nobody has it and nobody's asymptomatic, they're not going to spread it. If four people, one has it, he or she may spread it to the other three.

So the numbers are sort of arbitrary and random.

What I'm saying is, that I think that it sends a chill to the public and people in my community. They think law enforcement's going to knock on their door, count the number of family members and arrest them. We don't have arrest authority under the executive order.

KEILAR: Yes.

GIARDINO: So I think that -- I have to tell you why I posted it. I bumped into a veteran. Veteran baseball cap on.

He said to me outside of a convenience store, Sheriff, my wife and I are arguing about going to the family dinner at my son's house, 14 of us, including my grandchild we haven't met.

He said, my wife is afraid police will come and ticket my son, create a problem for him at work and fine him.

I said we're not going to do that. Under the executive order, I don't have authority, nor does anyone else, to fine somebody for having more than 10 in your home, or to arrest them.

But it makes it heavy-handed instead of asking people to comply.

KEILAR: Sure. But you're not taking issue with the fact you start getting multiple units - look, I don't think that the spirit of the law is to tackle families where there are 11 people living under a roof. Right?

It' about maybe larger groups of people gathering from multiple households.

Look, Sheriff Giardino, I really, really appreciate the conversation. Thank you for coming on and discussing this with us.

GIARDINO: Thank you for having me, Brianna. Appreciate it very much.

KEILAR: All right. Good luck. It is a busy time, sir.

President Trump working to undermine Joe Biden's legitimacy by instituting big policy changes on his way out the door.

[14:44:56]

Plus, the Republican in charge of Georgia elections says Senator Lindsey Graham suggested that he throw out legal votes. Now critics are calling that criminal.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KEILAR: President Trump may be trying to cement his legacy with controversial actions during his last two months in office. But those actions may also be designed to put President-Elect Joe Biden behind the eight ball even before he officially moves into the White House.

To be clear, the president has checked out on the biggest threat to the country, the coronavirus pandemic.

But here are some of the things he is paying attention to.

A drawdown of American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. U.S. military commanders being given their orders moments ago.

Acting defense secretary, Christopher Miller, majority of troops pulled out just five days before Joe Biden is inaugurated. The decision, still 2,500 troops in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

The decision from President Trump comes despite warnings from military leaders like recently removed defense secretary, Mark Esper, that conditions haven't been met there for withdrawal.

"The New York Times" reports that President Trump is considering a military strike against Iran before he leaves office.

The report says Trump asked senior staffers about hitting Iran's top nuclear site but was waived off the idea by Vice President Mike Pence and chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Mark Milley, among others. Not surprisingly.

The worried a strike could escalate into a major confrontation in the final days of the Trump presidency.

Trump is also reacting to Iran increasing their stockpile of uranium in the wake of Trump pulling out of the U.S. - pulling the U.S. out of the Iran nuclear deal.

While the president may have been talked out of that strike he is said to still be considering other smaller strikes against Iran.

The White House also is trying to set up energy companies in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge before time runs out.

They are starting the bidding and leasing process for oil and gas drilling sites inside of ANWR. They are trying to get it in under the wire since President-Elect Biden has promised to block the drilling.

[14:50:04]

The Trump administration may also try to launch new actions against China in the final weeks. "Axios" reports that this could create further sanctions against China companies, maybe greater restrictions on trade as well.

Actions like those would be hard for a Biden administration to just rescind and they would make strains with China before Biden takes office. What is making these moves more of a possibility than a pipe dream is

the purge of the Pentagon.

First, President Trump fired Defense Secretary Mark Esper. Esper had disagreed with Trump on Afghanistan.

So with Esper out of the way, the White House started forcing others out of the Pentagon, replacing much of its civilian leadership with Trump loyalists.

All of this coming from a lame-duck president and his compliant administration, which is becoming more compliant by the day as he removes people.

As President Trump makes major foreign policy moves in the final weeks of his administration, he is shutting the president-elect out of getting classified briefings.

Joe Biden can't engage with government experts on the global pandemic. He is being blocked from accessing State Department resources like messages from foreign leaders that would be congratulating him on winning the election.

Joining me now is Brett Bruen. He is a former director of global engagement for the Obama White House.

Thank you so much for being with us.

Tell us how this lack of cooperation from the State Department affects the transition.

BRETT BRUEN, FORMER WHITE HOUSE DIRECTOR, GLOBAL ENGAGEMENT: Yes, we're really in a diplomatic danger zone right now, because diplomats around the world, our ambassadors, those on the front lines in Afghanistan and Iraq are not being told anything.

It is radio silence from Washington. And so they have messages of congratulations piling up in these consulates and embassies.

But at the same time, they don't have authorization to engage with foreign leaders, most of whom have already recognized Joe Biden as the winner of this election.

And our diplomates are in this very awkward position right now. And it is dangerous at a time when advocates like China and Russia are trying to take advantage of the confusion here in the U.S.

KEILAR: What message does it send to allies or to enemies overseas?

We just heard, you know, certainly some -- it was sort of a concern that was raised by the acting defense secretary where he warned, you know, destabilizing forces from taking advantage of what's happening.

What do you think could happen?

BRUEN: It's very interesting, because, on the one hand, he's talking about a smooth exit from Iraq and Afghanistan.

I was on a provincial reconstruction team outside of Tikrit last time we drew down our forces and we had over a year to do it. This is really reckless and risky.

On top of that, you're not sharing information with the incoming administration. So the likelihood that something could go wrong is very, very high.

And I'm concerned at this hour for our troops and for our diplomats posted in Kabul and Baghdad.

KEILAR: Explain that, because when you're talking about -- you know, I think -- look, I think a lot of Americans -- and Americans are war weary, I think we all understand that.

But they look at this situation and they think, a lot of them, OK, troops out of these places, these wars have gone on for years and years and years, this can only be a good thing.

But there's such a thing about being more methodical about the removal of troops.

Explain, really, what your concerns are when you're talking about a drawdown that, you know, won't be done until January 15th.

BRUEN: Well, the key piece is winning the peace. And we didn't do it in Iraq.

I worked for President Obama, but I'm critical of how it was handled last time. And this time, we've accelerated even further.

And what it doesn't do is allow us enough time to ensure, as the acting defense secretary was saying, that the Afghan and Iraqi troops we've been training are ready, that civil society, that the government itself can stand up.

It just is reckless.

KEILAR: Brett, thank you so much for being with us. Brett Bruen joining us to discuss this very important topic today.

Republican Senator Ted Cruz calling one of his colleagues a "complete ass" because that colleague asked another to mask up.

[14:54:29]

Plus, former President Barack Obama speaking with Oprah about Republicans, Sarah Palin, and about how norms are being broken in society. We'll have that ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina is on defense. He's facing tough questions after he reportedly called up Georgia's secretary of state and asked him to toss out legal ballots. The chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee insists he has done

nothing wrong. But he admits he talked to election officials in Arizona and Nevada, two other states, that went for Biden.

Georgia is wrapping up its hand recount of the presidential race. They're expected to be done tomorrow.

And the runoff elections there in January are going to decide control of the Senate. So there's a whole lot at stake here.

Senator Graham just spoke with Manu Raju on Capitol Hill, and Manu joins me now.

This is key, because he insists, Manu, that he didn't say this to the Georgia secretary of state. But there was also a witness on that call contradicting Graham.

What did Graham say to you?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Graham said to me he did not threaten the Georgia secretary of state in any way or suggest that legally cast ballots should be tossed out.

He said he was simply questioning mail-in voting, how it is occurring in Georgia, and how those signatures are verified.

And he also revealed to me that he was asking about how this would go down because he said he was concerned about the Senate runoffs in Georgia and whether or not those rules could be tightened before the elections occur that would determine the next Senate majority.

Of course, this is not what the Georgia secretary of state said. He said he believed the message was implicit, that Graham was concerned about how these ballots were cast in the presidential race.

But, nevertheless, I asked Lindsey Graham whether it was appropriate for him to use his perch to question state officials and he defended his actions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I want to make sure that we're taking the precautions necessary with valid signatures like we do when they show up on Election Day.

RAJU: What do you say to critics that say you, as a Trump ally, you are overreaching, getting involved in a state election?

GRAHAM: What I'm very concerned about is, if you're going to continue to vote by mail, that we need to know what systems work and what don't. It's up to the people of Georgia.

RAJU: He thinks it's an implicit threat --

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: No, I -- I categorically reject that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: He said he categorically rejects what the Georgia state secretary said, that it was an implicit threat to get rid of those legally cast ballots.

But he also revealed, Brianna, that he spoke with election officials in Nevada and he said he also said he spoke to the Arizona governor. Those two states, close states that went to Joe Biden.

He said it's all part of his efforts to ask how mail-in votes are conducted.

I just asked the Senate majority leader about Lindsey Graham's efforts, and he said he praises how states conduct their elections across all 50 states.

And he said, about Lindsey Graham, you can ask Graham about his actions -- Brianna?

KEILAR: We should be clear, the secretary of state in Georgia was indicating it seemed to him that perhaps Graham was fishing for some ideas for a legal challenge as well. So I'll just put that out there before I say goodbye.

Manu, thank you so much for bringing us that interview you did with Lindsey Graham.

Our special coverage will continue now with Brooke Baldwin.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Thank you, Brianna.

Hi, there. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for being with me.

[14:59:56]

This country is continuing to shatter its own coronavirus records. Every day is worse than the last. You see the map here. More than 73,000 Americans are hospitalized with COVID just today. That is the highest total ever.