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U.S. Deaths Soar Past 250,000, Trump Hunkers Down in White House Tweeting Conspiracy Theories on Election Fraud; Food Banks Face Unprecedented Demand as Unemployment Claims Rise & Federal Benefits Could End Before Christmas; Denise Turner Roth Discusses the Importance of the Presidential Transition, How It's Being Politicized as Trump Refuses to Concede. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired November 19, 2020 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. I've spoken with sources who say that, up until this day, this president remains in his bunker convinced that or convinced himself, we are not sure, that this was a rigged election and that he should remain as president.

And that's why we saw Rudy Giuliani and his conspiracy theater, which the president adheres to at all times.

And so he's not thinking about COVID. He's not thinking about 250,000 deaths. He is thinking about his own political future, Brianna. That's what he wants to talk. That's what he cares about.

And if he can't stay in the White House, he wants to know what he can do with those 70 million-plus voter who voted for him and how he can take that either into 2024 or how he can monetize it at some point for himself.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: You know, Tim, as you watch this, it's sort of -- it is clearly unprecedented to have a president have such lack of value in American lives that the president -- the president's unencumbered by another term.

He has time on his hands and we are looking at how he's spending it and it is not on Americans and they're dying.

TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Yes. Well, and we saw this in the campaign when the president insisted on having rallies. He continued wanting rallies even after one his supporters, Herman Cain, likely as a result of attending an indoor rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

The president put his campaign first. And he should have altered the way in which he campaigned in a pandemic election but he didn't.

So his behavior on that score hasn't changed at all. It's been very consistent. He always put his political needs ahead of our needs as a people in dealing with a pandemic.

There's something else that's unprecedented here. And that's that he is not the first presidential nominee to claim there was fraud after an election.

But he was the first presidential nominee to assume there would be fraud and talk publicly about it before the election.

And that's what makes -- made for many people, not enough I would say, but for many people, the claims of fraud on election day and the day after, not credible.

Because he had assumed there was fraud even before all the votes were in, let alone counted.

KEILAR: Gloria, listen to something that House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy said today. He said there's no room for the two administrations to work on the virus at the same time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): You have one president at a time. We have the military putting through and planning this ahead of time. So I want to follow through.

And if we can get people the vaccine next month, let's do it. That is what's going to save lives. Playing politics with this is wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Gloria, what do you think?

BORGER: Is he accusing Joe Biden of playing politics here? And not Donald Trump who's the president of the United States? Who should be out there --

KEILAR: Yes.

BORGER: -- every day?

Yes. Out there every day saying, I want to make sure that the vaccines get to the American people.

It doesn't matter whether he concedes. He doesn't matter what conspiracy nonsense is lurking in his head. He should worry about what happens to the American people.

And the enablers on Capitol Hill, like Kevin McCarthy, who some of them whispering privately, oh yes, yes, yes, Biden will be president, and afraid to say it publicly or playing this game publicly.

I don't know what's in Kevin McCarthy's head. Maybe he believes this conspiracy nonsense. I have no idea.

But those who are giving fist bumps to Kamala Harris and then egging the president on because they're afraid of his political power, it's ridiculous.

History is recording this. History will not look kindly upon these people. These people are cowards. KEILAR: Just our luck that we are here with Tim who's our presidential

historian.

BORGER: Right.

KEILAR: Sometimes it's I think hard, Tim, to know how history is going to judge a moment. And sometimes it's not. It's not so hard.

But I know you probably have some particular nuance on how to think about this moment and how history will judge a president who, quite frankly, doesn't seem to care about the lives of his citizens.

NAFTALI: One of the things of being a historian is that historians often don't agree. So it's really difficult to say what history is going to record.

KEILAR: Sure.

NAFTALI: Let me put it this way. Richard Nixon is remembered as having committed abuse of power and crimes.

And as the data comes out, I believe Donald Trump will be remembered for having committed a dereliction of duty in response to the pandemic.

That the cost to this country in terms of lives lost and economic despair were much, much higher than they needed to be or had to be in this international crisis.

That, in addition to the impeachment matter and the other abuse of power we know about, will forever be a stain on the record of the 45th president of the United States.

[14:35:10]

KEILAR: Tim and Gloria -- sorry, Gloria. Final word to you.

BORGER: I was just going to say one more thing to Tim, who knows this better than anyone.

There were members of Congress, Barry Goldwater, who went down to Richard Nixon saying you need to resign and he did.

There are no people like that on Capitol Hill anymore. Nobody can get through to the president. He doesn't trust anyone.

I mean, Tim, there aren't any people look that. Correct?

NAFTALI: Two things. There aren't any people like that other than Mitt Romney.

And two --

BORGER: He won't listen.

NAFTALI: -- the American people had given up on Nixon. They have not given up in the same numbers on Trump.

BORGER: Right.

NAFTALI: And that's a big, big difference this time.

KEILAR: That's a good point.

BORGER: That's a big difference.

KEILAR: Yes, that is a big difference.

Tim, Gloria, thank you so much to both of you.

BORGER: Thank you.

KEILAR: Hundreds of thousands of Americans filed new unemployment claims in the last week. And we are seeing the impact of that in long lines at food pantries across the country. We'll take you live to one of them in New York, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:40:14]

KEILAR: Americans are struggling right now. More than 700,000 filed for first-time unemployment benefits just last week, according to the Labor Department.

And as Americans lose their jobs, they're at risk of losing their federal benefits, according to research from the think tank the Century Foundation. This blow could land right before Christmas.

One person at risk is Karen Smith, a single mom who lost her well- paying job at the Department of Education.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARIN SMITH, A SINGLE MOM WHO LOST JOB WITH DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION: Luckily, Florida's unemployment is so low that we qualify for food stamps so I can feed the 14-year-old growing boy.

We stopped going to food banks because they're closing and they're far now. And we kind of, if they open at 9:00, you have to be there at 5:00 a.m. to hope to get anything. South Florida is in trouble.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: So Americans are also going hungry. That's what that means. Food banks across the country are facing unprecedented demand.

CNN's Vanessa Yurkevich is live at one of them in New York City.

You tell us what's happening there on the ground, Vanessa.

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS & POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Brianna. We are seeing that steady stream of folks in line for food. They're here for the Thanksgiving meals.

Right now, it's the end of the day but you see the line stretching just to the end of the block. They have shut down the entire street.

At one point, we saw lines stretching around four city blocks. And these were people here looking for the Thanksgiving meals.

The Campaign Against Hunger is the organization that is putting this on. They allotted for 1,000 meals for families. Unfortunately, they have met that number and are now having to turn people away.

We spoke to the founder of Campaign Against Hunger and she talks about this increased and critical need.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. MELONY SAMUELS, FOUNDER, THE CAMPAIGN AGAINST HUNGER: So 75 percent of those we are seeing are unemployed because of the COVID-19. COVID-19 is why this line is in the state that it is now. We have never seen it like this before.

CLEMENCIA VEGA, FOOD PANTRY RECIPIENT: I appreciate that I'm happy that I'm able to come here today and get help. And I'm able to feed my kids every day when I come to the food pantry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

YURKEVICH: You heard from that woman, Clemencia. She waited in line here today in order to get a Thanksgiving meal to feed her children.

But, Brianna, a lot of this could have been avoided in many ways. The enhanced unemployment benefits ended at the end of July. That was an extra $600 a week for people.

And there's been no stimulus, no movement on federal aid for folks.

And as you mentioned at the top, there are programs, federal protections that are expiring at the end of this year right up around Christmas, protections on evictions, unemployment for folks that will be expiring.

Brianna, it is going to get a lot darker for people this winter if they don't get some help soon -- Brianna?

KEILAR: Yes. I think back to the pictures we remember of the Great Depression and the soup and bread lines that we would have seen in New York City, photos of them that sort of harken back to that for us.

And when people think of this moment in history, Vanessa, they will be -- it's the line behind you, the spaced-out line of people with shopping carts that is going to be the same thing.

And so as these food banks are facing a tough winter, do they think they can make it through and provide for people the way they need?

YURKEVICH: It's a great question. It's one we asked. They know they have enough food at least for today. Unfortunately, they did have to turn some families away. But they allotted for as much as they could.

But it is a serious concern. We're in the giving season, Brianna, so a lot of people donate to this organization and they're able to provide more meals for folks in need.

But they're worried that people will forget and they won't be able to donate as much.

And they're also worried about another shutdown. Another shutdown means there's more and more people out of work and this line will only get longer.

So there is a concern that there will be more food needed and they won't be able to meet that need -- Brianna?

KEILAR: Yes. The help is certainly needed.

Vanessa, thank you for showing us that.

[14:44:42]

Ahead, there's not a single federal agency working to help President- Elect Joe Biden transition to the White House. And my next guest says this process is just too important to politicize. She should know. She helped President Trump through his transition in 2016.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: President-Elect Joe Biden is hosting a meeting with the National Governors Association right now, pushing ahead in spite of President Trump's efforts to impede his transition.

This week, the State Department is refusing to share messages with foreign leaders to Joe Biden. To Joe Biden!

HHS won't even share their research on the coronavirus with his team.

And the head of the General Services Administration, Emily Murphy, is refusing to, quote, "ascertain that Biden won" and is holding back millions of dollars in transition funds in the process.

A former GSA administrator from the contested election in 2000 says he thinks Murphy is being used by Republicans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[14:50:04]

DAVID BARRAM, FORMER ADMINISTRATOR, GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION: These Republican Senators and cabinet members, who are letting Emily sit out there twisting in the wind, strike me as not courageous. They are being not courageous and asking her to be courageous. It's just not right.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KEILAR: Joining me now is Denise Turner Roth. She was the administrator for the GSA and helped President Trump's team transition to the White House in 2016.

Denise, thank you for joining us.

DENISE TURNER ROTH, FORMER ADMINISTRATOR, GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION: Thank you for having me, Brianna.

KEILAR: You wrote a very interesting op-ed for CNN.com. You talk about worrying about the implications of the delayed transition. Tell us what's at stake here?

TURNER ROTH: There's a great deal at stake. That's been pointed out. The agencies across the federal government, about 100 agencies, will not start the process of transferring government from one administration to the next.

That means some major policy items being addressed at these agencies are not being conferred between the two bodies.

What you want at this point is for the Biden team to be with the administration team talking about the existing policies, whether it's covering COVID, whether it's infrastructure policy, what have you, wanting them to talk about what's happening currently, what's on the horizon, and what are the things we need to plan for in the future.

That is a concern, whether it's a security agency, be it GSA, be it a housing agency. All those efforts are not happening. Each day that goes by is a day that is lost for that purpose.

KEILAR: Being someone, Denise, who -- there's not many people who have been in this position of ascertaining the outcome of an election and starting this process.

I imagine most Americans had no idea about what this process was.

With that in mind, as you think about Emily Murphy -- you're in a position certainly as someone who ascertained the outcome of the election. That's what she's supposed to be doing.

What do you think about what position she's in right now?

TURNER ROTH: I'm sure there's a lot that she and her team are debating and discussing and that she's giving good advice from all sides.

At the end of the day, I think it's necessary to look at where we are at this point. We're almost two weeks out. The states have confirmed the performance of the polling and voters. There's been clarity in terms of where the decisions have come out.

In terms of the electoral votes, we're not in a position, like we were in 2000, where there was a question in terms of the span between the votes with the administration and the incoming president-elect.

So we have to look at all those pieces and make the determination of are we at a place where we can transition government. At this point, I would say yes.

That's where I have been concerned, understanding this is an important moment, and it's important for us to move forward and not lose this important time.

Certainly, the Biden administration does have experience and will be able to pick up the ball and keep moving us forward. And they're taking steps currently to move forward.

At the end of the day, there's important policy discussions to be had, important understanding to be had between the two, and that's not happening now.

It's really impacting and it can impact the continuity of government, which is the most at risk at this point.

KEILAR: You quickly ascertained the results in 2016. There's some current and former Trump administration officials who reaching out to the Biden team. Some of them doing to it very quietly.

But I wonder if there's any latitude in the system that does allow agencies to work around GSA with the Biden team and also just to make those key preparations for transitioning knowledge to the Biden team when they get the go-ahead to do it.

TURNER ROTH: The GSA administrator has the authority in terms of moving forward with the transition. So I don't see any agency taking steps outside of the transition process until that ascertainment is reached.

It's the agreement between the existing administration and the incoming team, that there's agreement around moving forward and agreement on what they will share.

That ascertainment, those agreements, those need to be put in place before any of those agencies take any formal steps.

The fact we would ask them to maneuver is not the place we would want to be. We want to have a smooth and easy transition of our government.

We want the government leadership to be focused on what's next, how do we work together, and ensuring we're doing what we need for the public safety.

And that is not happening currently.

KEILAR: Can I ask you one more question, which is about the archiving of work that is so important in the White House and around the administration.

[14:55:04]

For this administration, can that proceed without the ascertainment?

TURNER ROTH: No. There should be transition activity that's happening for each agency that has to do with whether it's archiving or scanning documents or other preservation steps that they should be taking.

That should be happening regardless. That shouldn't be held up by ascertainment.

KEILAR: OK, good to know.

Denise Turner Roth, thank you so much. We really appreciate it.

Coming up next hour, President-Elect Biden is speaking from Delaware. We're going to bring that to you live.

Plus, Michigan's secretary of state joins CNN to respond to the outrageous claims that were made today by Rudy Giuliani and the rest of the Trump campaign legal team.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: You are watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me.

[15:00:01]

Just a heads up for all of you, new. Any minute now, we'll hear from President-Elect Joe Biden and Vice President-Elect Harris.